Stage 5 - Completed Relic Weapons List

[Tajin]

so uhh, you are saying LS (as a team effort) should not upgrade other relic but horns and shields?, or that people should not upgrade anythign but horns and shields?

[Antithesis]

so yeah... moar relics please.

[NynJa]

You pretty much ignore the major increase in shield blocks that Aegis gives, making it all the more powerful because 80% of the time (or whatever it is) you won't get your shadow casts interrupted. However...

Learn to cotank and learn how to cast shadows.

with a second tank, you should rarely be getting hit to begin with. The only time you do get hit, your partner should be able to take hate off you at that point, either through curing lost damage, or from both of you being similarly high on hate that the damage you took knocked your hate down enough for your partner to take #1.

Right, because every time a tank gets hit it's because a lack of skill, and they should uninstall. I guess if a LS only has one tank for an event, they should just go home!

Nicca please.

I said its because of lack of skill ?? I just fucking said in that very post, that if a tank gets hit because Ichi and Ni are down, the other pld should be able to gank hate off the first pld either though the hateloss of getting hit, or the hate from curing the other pld.

If you only have one tank for an event, its probably cause somethings going on at 5am pst, and your aegis pld('s) are probably sleeping.

Further, on monsters that don't have oneshot potential, you can use counterstance and easily push your counter rate above 60%--a 60% chance of totally nullifying physical melee attacks while adding on extra damage at the cost of 0 TP, don't you wish Shadow Mantle was that potent?

fixed for further clarification

[aurik]

Actually counter gives tp

[NynJa]

it does ?? I thought it was shown that it doesnt give TP ??
was this changed at some point, or did whoever test it botch the test ?

[aurik]

it does ?? I thought it was shown that it doesnt give TP ??
was this changed at some point, or did whoever test it botch the test ?

I tested it um about 14-15 months ago now. It's possible they stealth-fixed it, but I doubt that. It was Jump that was shown to give no TP (which is super-strange and means that kraken souleater jumps are a shitload of free damage)

[NynJa]

oh, my bad on that then...still shadow mantles and utsusemi dont bite back like counters do.

[Cephius]

it does ?? I thought it was shown that it doesnt give TP ??
was this changed at some point, or did whoever test it botch the test ?

I tested it um about 14-15 months ago now. It's possible they stealth-fixed it, but I doubt that. It was Jump that was shown to give no TP (which is super-strange and means that kraken souleater jumps are a shitload of free damage)

Counter still gives TP, and from crude ballista tests it seems the only thing AF2 boots do to counterstance is to reduce the amount of TP given to the enemy when countering. Kinda sucks they don't increase counter rate, but still might be of some use if you're counter-tanking something that has bad TP moves, specifically salvage bosses.

[Shuemue]

it does ?? I thought it was shown that it doesnt give TP ??
was this changed at some point, or did whoever test it botch the test ?

I tested it um about 14-15 months ago now. It's possible they stealth-fixed it, but I doubt that. It was Jump that was shown to give no TP (which is super-strange and means that kraken souleater jumps are a shitload of free damage)

Counter still gives TP, and from crude ballista tests it seems the only thing AF2 boots do to counterstance is to reduce the amount of TP given to the enemy when countering. Kinda sucks they don't increase counter rate, but still might be of some use if you're counter-tanking something that has bad TP moves, specifically salvage bosses.

Actually some parses were posted showing it's +10% counter rate with CS up, even with them removed, lemme find the thread wherever it is.

edit:

Here; http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html ... =94;page=1

And here it's discussed on BG; viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18167&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60

[Mikichan]

I see 1 new relic in the last 4 pages

[RKenshin]

Wow. I went to work, came back and there were five more pages of crap added on. I said I'd try to avoid posting again but I really want to comment on a few parts.

With many linkshells putting more time/effort into instanced events like Salvage, Einherjar, Dynamis/Limbus/Assaults/etc, and less time into HNM kings/CoP wyrms... There really isn't as much of a need for a decked out Aegis PLD or a relic BRD as there used to be. Not to mention the fact that this trend of SE introducing more instanced events will likely continue.

Salvage: This is already easy enough with six people. But sure if you want to spend 200+ million to counter tank a little better or the marginal increase over the free destroyers then you can go for it.

Do you even know what relic I have upgraded? lol... And my opinions on this matter have nothing to do with the fact I have a relic, either. I'd feel the same way regardless, because it doesn't change the way things are.

But hey you know I could play that game too. "But sure if you want to spend 200m+ to have slightly faster MP regeneration, seeing as there already is a +1 ballad horn for salvage making it only slightly better, then go ahead." Not to mention the fact, since it's soo easy (just as you said), most of that MP regeneration goes to waste when there isn't someone to cure! Which is often in most runs with how fast kills are.

Oh but you know what doesn't go to waste, ever, as long as the person has an IQ over that of a shoe lace? Higher damage output, you can't kill too fast for your own good. But you can sure as hell have too much MP to use, even as a BLM (who don't do so well in Salvage). I see it happen regularly being in presense of a relic BRD rather often, and even playing her at some events. Then, anyone will tell you kill speed means a lot in Salvage for a typical run where you want to kill numerous NMs + a boss.

Einherjar: You definitely need the Horn for MP regeneration since BLM kill adds quicker and so far the only issue I've heard with this is keeping MP for curing while fighting the boss.

Wow, we definitely need horn to beat Einherjar? Funny because a lot of people have been clearing levels without too much trouble, and without horns. Oh and btw, BLMs don't kill adds quicker than melee either. They certainly help and I'm not trying to downplay the utility of their job, because they are 100% important, but there's no truth behing trying to say they kill mobs faster.

That is, unless you think manaburns are faster/more efficient exp than melee burns? Because when it comes to instanced events, that's all they are; giant melee burns. There is really no significant difference between exp PTs and dynamis/einherjar/etc aside from the boss fights. It's just killing mobs over and over as fast as you can, and melee burns do that more effectively than anything else.

Dynamis: I'm not going to even argue GHorn value here. BLM manaburn is the most efficient way to clear zones and can even kill dlord just as well as melee burn.

People already touched this topic pretty well but, again melee burns are much more effective in dynamis. You can't beat DL with 20 trying to manaburn, but you can with melees. Manaburn doesn't even work on DL without a good deal of them, and dynamis runs all together are faster with a balance of melee/mages to begin with.

Limbus: Ultima/Omega, which are the only moderate challenges, should be done with BLM and PLD(cough*aegis*) tanking. I don't want to see any fucking melees swinging away their gimp ass shit on omega feeding it TP then crying for cures because they are a waste of a job. Also, when duoing/trioing kaiser behemoth, yeah 2x MP regeneration beats out a GKT. If you, aurik, or tekki can counter, HP build kill, or spam WS on kaiser behemoth I will recant my previous statements.

Weak point, finding a single example where melees aren't best (kaiser bahamut) doesn't mean anything. I might as well go "oh yeah, well black mages can't do the last floor of apollyon SE or the magic immune giant in apollyon NQ!" and it would be just as intelligent as your retourt. And, Ultima/Omega aren't challenges at all, doesn't matter what you're using, they're easy fights. An Omega is usually a 5-10m fight and an Ultima is usually a 15-20m fight, and both are easy regardless of whether melees are present.

Aegis PLD isn't even needed either Einstein, there's this thing called a magic damage reduction cap that any tank can hit without an Aegis, meaning Citadel Buster isn't a threat. Nor is the fact Aegis has -25% magic damage taken really important at all for the fight.

Assaults: Joke as it is, get some ridill wars and they'll still outparse anything else. No MP sinks there either.

Assaults aren't worth mentioning but, ridill WARs come in behind someone that knows how to use GKT if you want to get into an epeen "who can do the most damage" contest.

Just sayin...

(Btw that was a moguri pwn)

No, that was just a huge page of ignorance.

Your first fail is having any ninjas in range of any HNM.

Hey look, more ignorance.

Hate to break it to you bud but, a skilled and well-equiped NIN tank is capable of tanking and reaching the theorized hate cap within minutes on any HNM. And, is capable of reaching the physical/magic reduction cap, for taking miniscule damage in any situation. Really if anything, the properly skilled/equiped PLD, NIN, and even RDM tank are all just about equally capable of holding hate strong and tanking well for any fight. Obvious differences being in play styles.

So no, you're the one that fails for not knowing anything about how the game works after this long.

So really, is aegis all that ZOMGWTFBBQ ??

Absolutely, if for nothing else increasing the survivability of a tank that is holding a mob as the only tank. Being able to hold a HNM for 10-15 minutes with just a bard or a white mage is big in a game where everyone's philosophy is to hold and scream for help on every worldspawn.

This just kind of stood out to me as I don't really agree with that point. Although I probably just misunderstood the context of it. I'm not arguing that Aegis doesn't increase the survivability but, I don't really see holding an HNM for 10-15 minutes as something Aegis exclusive or anything. With that being your example of a use of Aegis in that paragraph it just seemed like that was your basic reasoning for it.

As far as why I disagree... Just as an example, around 2.5 years ago I duo held Fafnir as a NIN/WAR with a RDM/BLM mule, without sleeping it, without the RDM debuffing, and while attempting to have the RDM focus on damaging it (so it wouldn't have just been 100% holding). People started to arrive after about 10 minutes but, my point is that this being around 2 years ago with just moderate gear, I really think it comes down more to your skill as a tank than just the gear you have. Having the best gear in the game is nice but if you don't know how to count shadows you're going to eat dust eventually. But I suppose what it basically comes down to is I didn't think that was a good example.

Also, I said this a while ago too once but... I never really understood the huge amount of "omg Aegis is HUGE and worth upgrading always!" hype before, and still don't really now. Taking the Aegis apart it's basically all about the shield blocks and the magic reduction. Being completely practical about the most common situations where an Aegis PLD is praised to be the most effective, it will be them as a PLD/NIN. Typically, you're not going to be solo tanking either. So the odds of the shield block rate coming in use is rather slim between effective shadow tanking and balancing hate. Then, the magic damage reduction basically just allows you to reach the cap a little easier, but the thing is with the right gear you can still reach without Aegis. So the magic damage reduction is more a convenient bonus that saves you inventory room than it is an incredibly life saving feature exclusive to Aegis PLDs IMO for most situations.

Of course in absolutely dire situations where it's a solo tank, shit hits the fan, and things are crazy, the survivability really starts to shine. But, I don't think that happens often enough to justify the hype for an Aegis PLD. I mean like, do people capable of obtaining this kind of equipment still wipe to stuff like Tiamat/Fafnir/etc? But again this isn't a downplay on the utility, but a more realistic outlook on the primary reasons people think shield is all that and a bag of chips.

[RKenshin]

Separate post for this section since it's a different topic:

Since when have melees been the powerhouses of FF? What changed? What gear did it? Nothing changed, so why are people acting like it has?

More than anything in the last few pages I really don't understand at all how people have no clue how melees have changed... I'll give you two words that mean more than any merit, job ability, piece of equipment, etc that could have been introduced in all this time; information and experience. It means more than any tangible asset that could've assisted melees in all this time, and I can't believe people were listing merits/etc like those were all that changed. Advances in information and experiences were responsible for the development of WARs going from one of the most laughed at DDs years ago, to one of the most powerful DDs in the game. WARs didn't get anything special over all that time, only thing that changed is the information and experiences of people who learned how to play the job correctly (and shared it with others).

Likewise, information and experience is responsible for people clearing entire dynamis runs with an alliance. I would've never believed we were capable of doing dynamis like we are now when it was first released, and sure merits/new equipment/JAs help but nothing helps more than the knowledge we've gained.

The same applies for PLD/NIN tanks, RDM/NIN tanks, NIN/DRK tanks, etc... Which were all laughed at for a while before they were proven to be effective. Nothing about the utility of /NIN or /DRK changed to make those combinations effective, it was all a result of new information/experiences of people trying different things that were found to be effective.

I could go on and on with more examples but I think that serves the point already.

But, this is true for why melee jobs all together have gone from 'lolmeleejobs' to the "do we have enough melees to do this?" Sure some people are sticking with older ways, and that doesn't mean they can't be effective, but the fact still remains nothing has to be introduced to change things. Between people figuring out things like how to balance acc/attack, WS equations, DEX teirs in critical hit-rates, the power of haste builds, the power of meat builds, introduction of FF parsers, etc, things have changed significantly.

Then you see examples of how strong melees are all the time. You imagine how hard people would've laughed three years ago if you tried to tell them a melee burn Kirin (without RNGs) is faster? Now people straight tank and melee burn kirin on a regular bases in under 10 minutes, despite BLMs and manaburn being believed as 'the only way to kill Kirin effectively' for the longest time. Then you see people melee burning stuff like Fafnir/Nidhogg with WAR/NIN or MNK/NIN tanks and killing it in 5-10 minutes, or people doing DL with 20 people, or Bahamut V2 with melee burns, etc. All of which are done with melees being the primary damage output, all the while nothing signficant about the HNMs has changed to make melees better, and all of which are things people never thought they were capable of doing before.

So really, how hasn't the role, importance, and damage capabilities of melees changed? The improvements of melee output/performance are visible at just about every single HNM/instance in the game with few exceptions. Are people just taking these changes for granted because they're not as tangible as a new JA or ability or merit?

[Ohemgee]

wow

edit: thats almost as good as LJ post

[Shuemue]

edit: thats almost as good as LJ post

I just thought the same, Ruke should just copypasta that to his LJ to buy another month before he's harrassed again.

[Ryko]

More than anything in the last few pages I really don't understand at all how people have no clue how melees have changed... I'll give you two words that mean more than any merit, job ability, piece of equipment, etc that could have been introduced in all this time; information and experience.

The information that has existed for years and the experience that people ignored until they decided to take your word as divine. You'll have to excuse me for not necessarily faulting you but the rest of the community for being retarded sheep if you think anything has changed in the last 2-3 years except who people listen to. The worthwhile melees were always there, the people with the experience were always there, and the people with the information were always there. Not a thing has changed in terms of actual gameplay, just in who decided to make use of it and who had the best outlet for it. End-game in xi is almost starting to sound like a damn religion,good thing we all have a holy book for quick reference to back ourselves up.

But, this is true for why melee jobs all together have gone from 'lolmeleejobs' to the "do we have enough melees to do this?" Sure some people are sticking with older ways, and that doesn't mean they can't be effective, but the fact still remains nothing has to be introduced to change things. Between people figuring out things like how to balance acc/attack, WS equations, DEX teirs in critical hit-rates, the power of haste builds, the power of meat builds, introduction of FF parsers, etc, things have changed significantly.

Like I said before, maybe it was just uncommon to see a melee make a bit of sense with their gear and effort applied to their job outside a ridill WAR but how is any of that new, again? Last I checked Nny's was saying most of that stuff years ago, with the only significantly new thing being brought to the table was nagamaki's number crunching on the dex discovery (which, to my knowledge only searain even bothered to go all out with anyway in terms of practical application). Maybe it's a lot more self explanatory for WARs since between the adaberk hecatomb gear and haidate you were sitting on a ton of dex and STR for WSes anyway and it just made sense to put on haste when you already had double attacks coming out from your ears or to put on extra accuracy when your food doesnt provide you with a crutch to do so. Maybe, for the warrior community, that stuff was just ridiculously obvious and we needed the time to catch everyone else up, but you'll have to excuse me for still wondering what changed.

I guess it's more of a "duh" to me since I've been "straight tanking" kirin for 2 years, I've been "melee burning" faf for as long (with what is likely the largest amount of 0-1 BLM kills out of any group that exists), and somehow it's suddenly big shit in the last 5 months, give me a fucking break.

[Sylphet]

Lots of stuff I haven't read yet but will later.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3.../rukesonbg.jpg
If you are late for sea because of this Lhexh and I are gonna kick your ass.

[aurik]

I remember the same fundamental shifts happening when people went from double-minuet standard to minuet-march. It took a long time for people to come around (and they're still slowly coming around...)

[RKenshin]

I'd get fed to the lions if I did that after waiting so long to update.

I really hate how I can't just respond to a post with a few sentences, it's like a disability. my last ten posts, after hitting the post button, I ended up thinking "holy shit it's too long.."

EDIT:

More than anything in the last few pages I really don't understand at all how people have no clue how melees have changed... I'll give you two words that mean more than any merit, job ability, piece of equipment, etc that could have been introduced in all this time; information and experience.

The information that has existed for years and the experience that people ignored until they decided to take your word as divine. You'll have to excuse me for not necessarily faulting you but the rest of the community for being retarded sheep if you think anything has changed in the last 2-3 years except who people listen to. The worthwhile melees were always there, the people with the experience were always there, and the people with the information were always there. Not a thing has changed in terms of actual gameplay, just in who decided to make use of it.

What? First of all, it sounds a little too much like you're trying to make this personal by directing it at me in the first line (it comes off as sarcasm, not sure if that's an incorrect assumption... If it is then I apologize and just ignore the following two paragraphs). I never made any real major 'advancements' in anything other than maybe NIN micro-management tanking, nor have I ever claimed to outside of this sentence, and whether people 'take my word as divine' has nothing to do with my own choices or decisions. So if this is supposed to be some low blow you need to lay off; I never even mentioned anything about myself in that post, and there's nothing I can do to help the way things are now.

I never told people I was right because I'm the person people think I am, or belittled them as a reason why I'm right, or made them believe what I said just because of who people think I am, or anything of the like... I simply made an LJ posting my experiences and information findings because I enjoyed doing it in my free time, and continued further by posting my findings/experiences on forums for the same reasons. I didn't choose to become whatever I am now to some people, and I sure as hell can't choose as to whether some people may follow what I say like sheep. I've said I don't like it but open your eyes and you can see that it didn't change a thing. I'm not here trying to prove my existance or 'pwn people' or anything, I'm here because I've enjoyed brousing/debating on forums since visiting the IGN Super Smash Brothers board when I was like 12. And the same applies for my LJ, I enjoyed updating up until it became a job, but again there's no way I can effect what people hold it to.



That crap aside, I can't say I agree with what you said in regards to: "The worthwhile melees were always there, the people with the experience were always there, and the people with information were always there." I mean no offense but that is just not true in a realistic respect. Everything has to start from something, nothing in this game just 'always was that way.' You could say that in a life example because some things really were always there with respect the time period you're born in, but it's not the same for a 5 year old video game that has a very clear beginning most of us were present for.

For example, at some point someone decided to try NIN/DRK as a tank (I believe Kisada, although he mentioned seeing a JP do it once which gave him the idea), there is an actual date that happened (spring of 2004 I think? forgot). The servers didn't just open with NIN/DRKs off the bat, it has to happen first. Then, in the context of this post that date a single person/group figured it out doesn't even matter... What does matter, is the date word spread about how effective it was, because only then does it really start to have an effect on the gameplay as a whole. Because really assuming no one ever knew about NIN/DRK, what good is someone who claimed to have developed NIN/DRK as a superior tank 5 years ago, but never told a soul about it (or had anyone listen to them), in the context of this argument when the entire argument in the first place revolves around a person claiming "When did things change? I never saw anything change." Of course they don't see anything change if the information isn't spread, so whether or not something really existed before the general FF population was aware is completely irrelivent. I thought I made that clear in my post, although I suppose it would've been more accurate to say 'the spread of information and the sharing of experiences', because that's exactly what I meant. I'm not talking about the specific people who found things out or were always doing it xxx way at all in any regard.

Like, I've always used acc rings on WAR. I had sniper+1s before getting it to 40. But just because I always did it, doesn't mean that the general FF population did the same thing and felt they were better.

This is all about the advances in FF gameplay as a whole. Again, A single person or small group of people advancing beyond what other people do means nothing to this argument, but what does matter is the whole general FF population advancing. And, my point is, the whole general FF population has advanced significantly over the 5 or so years regardless of how slow it might have been with respect to whoever 'found xxx out first.' And, theses advancements (thanks to the spread of information and experiences) are responsible for people accomplishing such feats as I mentioned in the post. You can't really think that FF gameplay as a whole has not changed at all in the last 5 years?

That's just a fact, nothing changes it. The general population wasn't equiping for haste builds from the start, and heck for the longest time the majority of people thought STR/hecatomb gear for melee was > all. Whether or not one person thought it was a bad idea and used accuracy/haste later on before everyone started doing it doesn't matter, but what does matter is when word spread and everyone started doing it. Which is my point.

[Lhexh]

Ryko, not really sure why so much hostility surrounding this topic, but this is not exactly unexpected how slow people are to respond to change. In this game, just like in real life, the medium is more important than the message. You can speak truths all you want but if nobody is willing to listen, then nothing really happens. KI and lolalla were actually a very good source of information 2 years ago because they had some solid core posters who supplied quality information in the job sections, you named a few of them but there were more, but the masses of people didn't accept or just plain glossed over that info.

You can't really fault Ruk for the fact the masses read his LJ and finally grew a brain cell, just be happy you were smarter than they were. That said, I wouldnt say everything we knew 2 years ago compares to what we know now. Haste was still under-appreciated back then and took a while for that to get to the forefront. We also had the mass confusion of a LOT of people over playing modifiers in weapon skills, even the most knowledgable posters, for a short time until more tests and more info came to light [ which of course lead to the random noob over playing the effect of modifiers ].

Even if the changes were small, there have been lots of minor new pieces of information that can change how we optimize our builds. Even the simple revelation from Nagamaki's test of translating a +accuracy to an effective accuracy was a new revelation to most people and directly affects certain gear options.

[Ryko]

What? First of all, it sounds a little too much like you're trying to make this personal by directing it at me in the first line (it comes off as sarcasm, not sure if that's an incorrect assumption... If it is then I apologize and just ignore the following two paragraphs). I never made any real major 'advancements' in anything other than maybe NIN micro-management tanking, nor have I ever claimed to outside of this sentence, and whether people 'take my word as divine' has nothing to do with my own choices or decisions. So if this is supposed to be some low blow you need to lay off; I never even mentioned anything about myself in that post, and there's nothing I can do to help the way things are now.

I never told people I was right because I'm the person people think I am, or belittled them as a reason why I'm right, or made them believe what I said just because of who people think I am, or anything of the like... I simply made an LJ posting my experiences and information findings because I enjoyed doing it in my free time, and continued further by posting my findings/experiences on forums for the same reasons. I didn't choose to become whatever I am now to some people, and I sure as hell can't choose as to whether some people may follow what I say like sheep. I've said I don't like it but open your eyes and you can see that it didn't change a thing. I'm not here trying to prove my existance or 'pwn people' or anything, I'm here because I've enjoyed brousing/debating on forums since visiting the IGN Super Smash Brothers board when I was like 12. And the same applies for my LJ, I enjoyed updating up until it became a job, but again there's no way I can effect what people hold it to.

While what I say has a very cynical tone to it, a lot of it has to be taken at face value. When I said that you shouldn't be faulted for this sudden bullshit eureka trend, I meant it. I'm sure you read the previous posts in their entirety, but in the case you haven't, I'd suggest that you do so when you find the time. I loathe yes-men. I can't stand them, it bugs me to think that someone is just smiling and nodding so theyll just be accepted, it gets under my skin and quickly. The people I keep around me tend to be the people who are most prone to disagree with me with reason so someone just backing me up so they'll get noticed is bothersome. And yeah, with that, that's how I view people who have absolutely nothing of value to add to things except shit like ohemgee's last post. In no way do I blame you or would try to make it sound that way, and as a player and a person I think you're a perfectly cool guy. That said that bullshit sheep mentality is just that, bullshit.

That crap aside, I couldn't disagree more with what you said. "The worthwhile melees were always there, the people with the experience were always there, and the people with information were always there." I mean no offense but that frame of mind is just faulty to begin with. Everything has to start from something, nothing in this game just 'always was that way.' You could say that in a life example because some things really were always there with respect the time period you're born in, but it's not the same for a 5 year old video game that has a very clear beginning most of us were present for

"Always" in this sense doesn't mean from the dawn of time, but in this case I'd go from, say, 3 years ago, when most of us probably really started looking towards end-game and our goals regarding it. Yes, even then, the people with the right answers were there. I listed a good amount of names I looked to for just 3 jobs, if I included nin, drk, drg, sam, pld, etc I'm sure I could bring up easily 3-4 times as much.

For example...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11274&p=273880&hilit=Kisada#p2 73880

Trust me, I know. I have a memory for this sort of shit, I do my research. I can tell you who the first end-game DRK/DRG, for both the purposes of normal melee and for kraken jumping was. I can tell you who regularly taught me about war(/nin, mnk, whm) tanking fafnir and tiamat. I can tell you who the first DRK to successfully tank a wyrm was. I can tell you who I read up on when I wanted to make the most out of my monk. These people have existed for years, and in this case it might as well be considered "always" because back then the most you got out of an end-game discussion were those people. So you can disagree on the semantics and in that case fine, maybe the term "always" was too vague or blanketing. But at the heart of it, I'm sorry, in my opinion you're wrong.

This is all about the advances in FF gameplay as a whole. Again, A single person or small group of people advancing beyond what other people do means nothing to this argument, but what does matter is the whole general FF population advancing. And, my point is, the whole general FF population has advanced significantly over the 5 or so years regardless of how slow it might have been with respect to whoever 'found xxx out first.' And, theses advancements (thanks to the spread of information and experiences) are responsible for people accomplishing such feats as I mentioned in the post.

In that case I disagree, those people who take those steps to figure it out should be regarded, should be acknowledged, and shouldn't be just cast aside because they don't have someone shamelessly sending shoutouts their way at any given opportunity.

That's just a fact, nothing changes it. The general population wasn't equiping for haste builds from the start, and heck for the longest time people thought STR/hecatomb gear for melee was > all. Whether or not one person thought it was a bad idea and used accuracy/haste later on before everyone started doing it doesn't matter, but what does matter is when word spread and everyone started doing it. Which is my point.

And seeing as how I've been playing with melees that have had their shit together for 3 years, the resulting yes-men are, in my eyes, completely useless.

I apolgize for the mocking tone in which I was expressing myself, so I did my best to be as plain about it this time around. I do dislike a large portion of brainless fodder melees that have absolutely nothing of value to say until their heroes decide to do it for them, and I disliked them back when they were using me as the same kind of reference. It has little to do with you or anyone who takes great lengths to legitimize their efforts and time put in, but in reality the coat tail riders bother me.