Stage 5 - Completed Relic Weapons List

[kareface]

thats the proof that someone playing for 1year more than me, having a relic while all i have is a hagun can be way shittier than common people like me. playing since 10years and having 10 relics never made someone good, and its not even about skill its about understanding the job which is even more sad.

and yeah the sword strap is just 100% wrong anyway.

Operating on one misconception is a far cry from being a shitty player. I come on what job the LS needs me on, so I haven't gotten to play sam as much as I would like. I would prefer before making such an assumption you understand the context as well. I have 11 jobs that I would consider to have above average to high end gear for, and come to events with. I usually change jobs 4 times per day depending on the events. Sam has been one of the jobs I haven't been able to use as much as I would like, but I really enjoy using the job when I get the chance, and with luck I'll be able to use it more often now. I don't think anyone knows the in's and out's of every job they use, and knowing the ideal builds for 11 jobs is a task in itself. I used a build that works for me on nin for sam, I was mistaken in doing so, and I appreciate being corrected in this fact.

edit: corrected quote bbcode

[Suiram]

This discussion came up a while back I think, and while I can see how double-attack "gives the same results" as you stack it in the sense that you are going to get X more attacks per every 100 attack rounds regardless of how much you already had, in the sense of having relative benefits compared to the relative benefits of some other piece of gear, I think it's best to say it has diminishing returns, particularly when you are considering questions like "which of these two items will increase the average amount of time it takes me to reach 100%" or "which of these choices will result in higher damage over time?" For those questions it does make a difference the amount of DA you had previously, although I don't mean to suggest that it makes a significant difference in comparing these two particular items.

[Charismatic]

Mini, that post was all wrong, this is supposed to be the part where you flame the guy and start a 3 page (minimum) derail.
Take a lesson from your fellow posters, sheesh.
Actually, I'm glad you can remain civil when people come around taking potshots at you for practically no reason at all, and then take the advice of the folks in the thread seriously.

Why can't more people do that?

[kareface]

However as the previous math showed, without the max haste pole strap will result in more swings/hour. So if you don't have either of Hasso or a second March or haste spell or a high amount of haste in your TP gear, pole will net more additional swings/hour.

Like I said, I wouldn't use it soloing, but I think it's worth parsing for merits, and I love me some merits (over 800 merits atm). You're correct that the other strap will affect WS's, but is 2 WS's for every 100 if you're using a single hit. I have both straps and I alternate depending on what I'm doing, but I don't think that you can argue that I'm "stupid" for using that in a merit situation over the other. I'd like to parse it with the new GK and see how it does instead of writing it off like many in the community have. We all know that in a merit situation, there are a lot of factors involved, and it might turn out for the better. I've had the GK for less then 24 hours, and people are going to try and insult me for wanting to test different delay combinations and store TP combos. I've asked many of the ones on my server about using this combo and no one has tested it out. I've done the math in the past and it seems that the more haste you stack the better the delay strap becomes. I always exp with 2 brds and a rdm, so I'm never short on haste.

and yeah the sword strap is just 100% wrong anyway.

Comments like this seem more ignorant then actually doing the tests first hand. Bandwagons are always fun, but don't always lead you in the right direction. How many times now have people changed their builds because the next best combo was discovered. I'd rather just test it myself and know, because no one with the amano I asked could answer my question.

[SamanosukeShiva]

what's the TP return from kaiten?

[ringthree]

1453 swings with a 2% chance to DA comes out to an additional 29 swings. So, with double march the comparison is closer at 1482 swings with pole strap and 1498 swings with sword strap.

However as the previous math showed, without the max haste pole strap will result in more swings/hour. So if you don't have either of Hasso or a second March or haste spell or a high amount of haste in your TP gear, pole will net more additional swings/hour.

But, this doesn't take into account WS damage. Only total swings.

The difference in 2% DA on WS in this scenario is 5 per hour. So the question becomes, in an hour, are 5 second hits on Kaiten greater than or less than 16 additional swings with whatever chance of a 2.5x damage proc'ing.

My point is that the difference is marginal, and it is very hard to say that one or the other "sucks," though I will agree that in most cases the Pole Strap will win out. I just find out-of-hand dismissals of gear that is so marginally different ridiculous, thus my original questioning. A logical explanation is always the best route.

[ringthree]

what's the TP return from kaiten?

Do you mean the Store TP? 7 from 100TP for 30 seconds. The return for any WS is the same as a normal swing, and depends on Store TP gear.

[Phla]

isn't all of your math considering perfect conditions? in which said melee would be engaged the full time to mobs and having to almost never run around? think outside perfect conditions, the +2% DA would win out over time, in a normal ffxi situation, no math required, just logic.

[kareface]

isn't all of your math considering perfect conditions? in which said melee would be engaged the full time to mobs and having to almost never run around? think outside perfect conditions, the +2% DA would win out over time, in a normal ffxi situation, no math required, just logic.

Just like misses would benefit a lower delay setup over the WS setup. Being able to reengage is based on your base delay. There are a lot of factors involved. Logic would imply that something with so many factors involved would require more testing.

[BerenTebogo]

This is the most arguing that's occured in the relic thread not involving me in a long time.

I'm impressed guys, keep up the good work.

[Seditedi]

[quote=Yuffy~]

is that jealousy i hear

how can you be jealous of an amano SAM WSing in full DEX and being happy for his/her crit % on WSs, seriously.

To be honest with you I wouldn't be criticizing someone with two relics, nearly all jobs lv75, and thats been playing since the beginning of time. I think he knows what he's doing.

thats the proof that someone playing for 1year more than me, having a relic while all i have is a hagun can be way shittier than common people like me. playing since 10years and having 10 relics never made someone good, and its not even about skill its about understanding the job which is even more sad.

and yeah the sword strap is just 100% wrong anyway.

know what he/she is doing huh? riiiiiiiiight. waiting for some togi/double flame ring full time to pop and ill switch to pop corn.[/quote:2qfmzu0j]

The gear in your sig makes my eyes bleed.
Amir legs ew.

[rex_garuda]

Lucck of Demo from Kujata

http://www.demols.com/other/Lucck.jpg

[Demosthenes11]

fake SS, he's not at king arthro + pixels + i've seen a lot of shops in my time

[RKenshin]

Like I said, I wouldn't use it soloing, but I think it's worth parsing for merits, and I love me some merits (over 800 merits atm). You're correct that the other strap will affect WS's, but is 2 WS's for every 100 if you're using a single hit. I have both straps and I alternate depending on what I'm doing, but I don't think that you can argue that I'm "stupid" for using that in a merit situation over the other. I'd like to parse it with the new GK and see how it does instead of writing it off like many in the community have. We all know that in a merit situation, there are a lot of factors involved, and it might turn out for the better. I've had the GK for less then 24 hours, and people are going to try and insult me for wanting to test different delay combinations and store TP combos. I've asked many of the ones on my server about using this combo and no one has tested it out. I've done the math in the past and it seems that the more haste you stack the better the delay strap becomes. I always exp with 2 brds and a rdm, so I'm never short on haste.

Uh, what?

I never called you or inferred you or anyone was stupid, nor have I criticized yours or anyone else's decisions or choices here. The only thing I've done in the last few pages is offer my experiences and some knowledge on three issues that were being questioned and debated by other people at the time; whether WS can crit, whether DEX effects the triple damage proc, and a comparison of sword and pole strap. I never insulted anyone or even took a condescending attitude.

The difference in 2% DA on WS in this scenario is 5 per hour. So the question becomes, in an hour, are 5 second hits on Kaiten greater than or less than 16 additional swings with whatever chance of a 2.5x damage proc'ing.

My point is that the difference is marginal, and it is very hard to say that one or the other "sucks," though I will agree that in most cases the Pole Strap will win out. I just find out-of-hand dismissals of gear that is so marginally different ridiculous, thus my original questioning. A logical explanation is always the best route.

Nitpicking, but it's really 6 second hits on Kaiten if you attribute for Meditate.

And, again this is only even the case if you're using Hasso full-time (along with all the other haste effects). Which isn't a realistic scenario for most places you're on SAM? I mean my normal haste amount peaks at about 47%, where I'm using Seigan full-time and only have one BRD (if any). Which is what I consider to be a far more likely situation to be in for the majority of ones SAM usage (merits/dynamis/salvage/etc).

I've never said one sucks though, I own one myself and did my own tests with it. Although I don't think I'd use it for much of anything now, should probably scrap it.

isn't all of your math considering perfect conditions? in which said melee would be engaged the full time to mobs and having to almost never run around? think outside perfect conditions, the +2% DA would win out over time, in a normal ffxi situation, no math required, just logic.

Yes, but it doesn't matter whether you use perfect conditions or you try to count every single possible flaw/factor. Because in a controlled test the correlation of the results will still be just about the same for both scenarios. Every flaw or mistake or what have you that can occur to one person can happen to the other. Very few flaws are actually on a per-gear choice basis.

For DA in particular, there is one per-gear flaw in that the first swing of a DA could kill the mob, resulting in the second swing never happening. The chances of this happening rather small in itself though, nevermind attempting to measure how often it happens from just the 2% DA you gain with the strap.

[Max™]

There are few situations where Sword Strap seems worth it, if you're going for absolute tip-top max swing speed with an RC/Apoc/whatever maybe, but 2% DA affecting DoT and WSes (and improving TP gain in the times when you do DA) versus -3% Delay affecting DoT, being a blank slot during WS, and actually hurting TP/hit in many cases is just a hard sell.

If it was 3% HASTE, or 3% Hasso or whatever, we'd all be calling it the Jesus Strap, as in "Jesus Christ SE rocks for making this."

[kareface]

Uh, what?

I never called you or inferred you or anyone was stupid, nor have I criticized yours or anyone else's decisions or choices here. The only thing I've done in the last few pages is offer my experiences and knowledge on three issues that were being debated at the time; whether WS can crit, whether DEX effects the triple damage proc, and a comparison of sword and pole strap. I never insulted anyone, took a condescending attitude, nor offer anything other than my opinion and facts backed up by math or experiences.

Wasn't directed at you, I enjoyed your counter points.

And, again this is only even the case if you're using Hasso full-time. Which isn't a realistic scenario for most PTs? I mean my normal haste amount peaks at about 47%, where I'm using Seigan full-time and only have one BRD (if any). Which is what I consider to be a far more likely situation to be in for the majority of your SAM usage, including instanced events and the like.

I want to try the tipple amano + gja brd party, everyone fulltimes hasso. Also, I don't really merit with out 2 brds or a brd/cor.

Yes, but it doesn't matter whether you use perfect conditions or you try to count every single possible flaw or not. Because in a controlled test the correlation of the results will still be the same. Every flaw or mistake or what have you that can occur to one person can happen to the other. Very few flaws are actually on a per-gear choice basis.

For DA in particular, one flaw is that the first swing of a DA could kill the mob, resulting in the second swing never happening. The chances of this happening rather small in itself though, nevermind attempting to measure how often it happens from just the 2% DA you gain with the strap.

Or the first hit of the WS kills the mob, which happens quite often in merit situations.

This is the most arguing that's occured in the relic thread not involving me in a long time.

I'm impressed guys, keep up the good work.

I apologize, I'll leave it at that. Thanks for the info on the crits, it'll make a large difference in the gear choices I use. I'll try parse the 2 straps and see how they do. Sorry if I offend people by testing it out, but I had a question about the strap. I just wish someone had a decent set of results from a longer party to support the claim. With something that even the critics say is marginal at best, and in specific situations could be better, I don't understand why more people wouldn't test it out first hand. I'll give it a try and post the test results later. I'm more then willing to use either strap, I'm only interested in improvement.

[RKenshin]

I'd really like to see some really rare but much better straps. Add it to Hydra or something so there's a reason to kill that mofo.

And, actually pole strap is a better choice for an RC zerg as well IMO. Both will add one swing on average, but pole has the chance of activating a second time every ~10 attempts (again on average).

Wasn't directed at you, I enjoyed your counter points.

My mistake then, I thought it was.

I want to try the tipple amano + gja brd party, everyone fulltimes hasso. Also, I don't really merit with out 2 brds or a brd/cor.

I'm jealous, I'd love to try that. I really have a lot of fun when I have more than one SAM in the PT with me, but I rarely do. And there are no other Amano SAMs on the server I could PT with.

Closest thing is the Bravura WAR and Apoc DRK, although it'd be awesome to get both of them with me in the same PT. I've only been with one or the other so far, and even then we've managed over 31k/h.

[ringthree]

There are few situations where Sword Strap seems worth it, if you're going for absolute tip-top max swing speed with an RC/Apoc/whatever maybe, but 2% DA affecting DoT and WSes (and improving TP gain in the times when you do DA) versus -3% Delay affecting DoT, being a blank slot during WS, and actually hurting TP/hit in many cases is just a hard sell.

If it was 3% HASTE, or 3% Hasso or whatever, we'd all be calling it the Jesus Strap, as in "Jesus Christ SE rocks for making this."

I don't think that situation is all that rare. I mean, I am not anywhere as decked as many of the people in this thread on SAM, but I can come up with two BRD and a RDM party pretty often (with a little begging, Skur will be making disparaging comments at me very soon), and getting to a point where the number of swings where a scenario like this could play out in favor of a Sword Strap is not that rare. If you can maintain a six hit set up, then all you have to do is get to the point where more swings adds more damage than the DA's you get on WS's. In general this would favor Pole Strap, but not always. Meh, shit is situational.

[Max™]

Know my favoritest thing EVAR?

Seeing War/Nin's just after the 2h buff, with a Byakko's/Sword Strap, Rajas, and no other Store TP gear... which like, cancels out one of the major bonuses of Rajas for Gaxe (6 hit happy land /Sam +7 STP), or... oh I love this one.

Samurai's with what WOULD be a 6 hit build, but Sword strap on, which generally will push a marginal 6 hit to a 7 hit, in a sense nulling the Store TP gear slots. T.T

I bought one when they came out for 150k, went outside, hit a lesser coli, realised I just killed my 6 hit, sold it for 300k, best use I've ever found for one.

Also: Man it's easy to be so spoiled by 2 Brd meripos that you'd rather stand around bullshitting with your friends or trying to climb walls than "settle" for a 1 Brd.

[Hyriu]

Lucck of Demo from Kujata

[img]http://www.demols.com/other/Lucck.jpg[img]

Congrats to Luk, I know he had been working on that for a long time on Alex.