Stage 5 - Completed Relic Weapons List

[Callisto]

Which WS do you use in exp pt? Or do you just soboro/yoichi for meripo and Amano for HNM?

Also, how do you play with one-hand while fapping at a double-relic SAM? Custom controller? Or am I the only one that would have this issue?

[Krye]

THERE IS IN FACT A BEST? THERE IS IN FACT NO EQUAL LIKE HE INSISTS? How the fuck is something equal when given the optimum scenario, a relic SAM is outparsing the other two by 4%, which, at the highest level, is a big margin.

Damage isn't everything? Does Amano regen, drain, lower mob stats?

[Darkwill]

I think you've misread where he's pointed out a few HUGE fucking advantages Sam's have, mentioned how War/Sam has access too them, and basically every other DD has to sacrifice one or the other.

I really want to see Lhexh and Ruke parse it out Lhexh War/Sam, Ruke Sam/War, Hasso'D up like usual, balls to the wall, and I suspect it would be a very close matchup.

Amano isn't brokenlikewtf because of some magic hidden effect Pwn +10, it's because you can Sam/War and have Zerk+Hasso+Double Attack AND it rocks on top of that, same reason Bravura War/Sam should be a force of nature.

If you were being less angry/attacking, and read a bit more carefully you would see where the guy points out advantages he has (and uses thoroughly, why not?) and often things that could be done to close the gaps as much as possible.

Just to clarify, I don't actually know Ruke except from his posts, I think he's a knowledgeable motherfucker, but beyond that don't think we've actually had a convo beyond a quote here or there.

I just like to read carefully.[/quote

You people must be retarded or some shit.

Get this in your head: I couldn't give two shit which is best or which relic is most broken. You fuckers are retarded beyond belief.

The point is, it gets tiring seeing someone tippy-toeing around what he really wants to say and what we already fucking know: Relic SAM is fucking AWESOME. It's OK to come out and say it.

It's the bullshit Rkenshin keeps trying to feed you. He's telling you there's no clear cut winner, and that everything is equal, but yet, somehow a Relic SAM with optimum gear outparses an Apoc and Brav WAR and DRK. Doesn't this clearly show that THERE IS IN FACT A BEST? THERE IS IN FACT NO EQUAL LIKE HE INSISTS? How the fuck is something equal when given the optimum scenario, a relic SAM is outparsing the other two by 4%, which, at the highest level, is a big margin.

That's the whole gist I have a problem with. It's a fucking game, made by human beings who aren't perfect. Therefore, there is no equal -- in this case, a pimped out Relic SAM is the best DD in the game. Even if this is an opinion, it's OK to have one. It's the constant bullshit of telling me there's no equal, but remind me how you magically outparse people because you rock so much ass that I find insulting.

To someone who thinks I have a grudge: no, read my post history and see if I've ever insulted Rkenshin or come aggressive at him in the past. We're not even on the same server. I call bullshit whenever I see it, no bias or grudge.

The only bullshit I see is what you just said

[Toxity]

I think you've misread where he's pointed out a few HUGE fucking advantages Sam's have, mentioned how War/Sam has access too them, and basically every other DD has to sacrifice one or the other.

I really want to see Lhexh and Ruke parse it out Lhexh War/Sam, Ruke Sam/War, Hasso'D up like usual, balls to the wall, and I suspect it would be a very close matchup.

Amano isn't brokenlikewtf because of some magic hidden effect Pwn +10, it's because you can Sam/War and have Zerk+Hasso+Double Attack AND it rocks on top of that, same reason Bravura War/Sam should be a force of nature.

If you were being less angry/attacking, and read a bit more carefully you would see where the guy points out advantages he has (and uses thoroughly, why not?) and often things that could be done to close the gaps as much as possible.

Just to clarify, I don't actually know Ruke except from his posts, I think he's a knowledgeable motherfucker, but beyond that don't think we've actually had a convo beyond a quote here or there.

I just like to read carefully.[/quote

You people must be retarded or some shit.

Get this in your head: I couldn't give two shit which is best or which relic is most broken. You fuckers are retarded beyond belief.

The point is, it gets tiring seeing someone tippy-toeing around what he really wants to say and what we already fucking know: Relic SAM is fucking AWESOME. It's OK to come out and say it.

It's the bullshit Rkenshin keeps trying to feed you. He's telling you there's no clear cut winner, and that everything is equal, but yet, somehow a Relic SAM with optimum gear outparses an Apoc and Brav WAR and DRK. Doesn't this clearly show that THERE IS IN FACT A BEST? THERE IS IN FACT NO EQUAL LIKE HE INSISTS? How the fuck is something equal when given the optimum scenario, a relic SAM is outparsing the other two by 4%, which, at the highest level, is a big margin.

That's the whole gist I have a problem with. It's a fucking game, made by human beings who aren't perfect. Therefore, there is no equal -- in this case, a pimped out Relic SAM is the best DD in the game. Even if this is an opinion, it's OK to have one. It's the constant bullshit of telling me there's no equal, but remind me how you magically outparse people because you rock so much ass that I find insulting.

To someone who thinks I have a grudge: no, read my post history and see if I've ever insulted Rkenshin or come aggressive at him in the past. We're not even on the same server. I call bullshit whenever I see it, no bias or grudge.

The only bullshit I see is what you just said

Quoted for truth. Someone got out of the wrong side of bed this morning. Q___Q;

[Raikku]

I think you've misread where he's pointed out a few HUGE fucking advantages Sam's have, mentioned how War/Sam has access too them, and basically every other DD has to sacrifice one or the other.

I really want to see Lhexh and Ruke parse it out Lhexh War/Sam, Ruke Sam/War, Hasso'D up like usual, balls to the wall, and I suspect it would be a very close matchup.

Amano isn't brokenlikewtf because of some magic hidden effect Pwn +10, it's because you can Sam/War and have Zerk+Hasso+Double Attack AND it rocks on top of that, same reason Bravura War/Sam should be a force of nature.

If you were being less angry/attacking, and read a bit more carefully you would see where the guy points out advantages he has (and uses thoroughly, why not?) and often things that could be done to close the gaps as much as possible.

Just to clarify, I don't actually know Ruke except from his posts, I think he's a knowledgeable motherfucker, but beyond that don't think we've actually had a convo beyond a quote here or there.

I just like to read carefully.[/quote

You people must be retarded or some shit.

Get this in your head: I couldn't give two shit which is best or which relic is most broken. You fuckers are retarded beyond belief.

The point is, it gets tiring seeing someone tippy-toeing around what he really wants to say and what we already fucking know: Relic SAM is fucking AWESOME. It's OK to come out and say it.

It's the bullshit Rkenshin keeps trying to feed you. He's telling you there's no clear cut winner, and that everything is equal, but yet, somehow a Relic SAM with optimum gear outparses an Apoc and Brav WAR and DRK. Doesn't this clearly show that THERE IS IN FACT A BEST? THERE IS IN FACT NO EQUAL LIKE HE INSISTS? How the fuck is something equal when given the optimum scenario, a relic SAM is outparsing the other two by 4%, which, at the highest level, is a big margin.

That's the whole gist I have a problem with. It's a fucking game, made by human beings who aren't perfect. Therefore, there is no equal -- in this case, a pimped out Relic SAM is the best DD in the game. Even if this is an opinion, it's OK to have one. It's the constant bullshit of telling me there's no equal, but remind me how you magically outparse people because you rock so much ass that I find insulting.

To someone who thinks I have a grudge: no, read my post history and see if I've ever insulted Rkenshin or come aggressive at him in the past. We're not even on the same server. I call bullshit whenever I see it, no bias or grudge.

The only bullshit I see is what you just said

Quoted for truth. Someone got out of the wrong side of bed this morning. Q___Q;

Someone's just mad that there is something better then G.Axe WAR

[Izzy]

Obviously the only solution is for you both to server transfer to the same server and duel!

[Darkwill]

Obviously the only solution is for you both to server transfer to the same server and duel!

My account on Ruke '-')/

[Toxity]

Obviously the only solution is for you both to server transfer to the same server and duel!

Harry Potter style? :nikkei:

[RKenshin]

Holy shit people lol... What the hell, I go out for like 5-6 hours and come back to this!

I'm drunk so bare with me.

I'll go through posts I wanted to comment on in order!

/autotarget on
Config: whichever one it is that makes you lock on when engaging a new target can help you get used to this next thing.

Watch where the Drk and Sam stand, if you look you'll notice they almost always are standing on the same side of the mob, and they will generally pick a side rapidly upon engaging a mob.

If you look around you'll see that they're almost always facing the next mob, so when this one dies, they're already running over/hitting the next one. Just try to slide over and make sure you're facing the same way as the two of them/so the next mob is on the other side of the one you're fighting and you'll really quickly get the hang of it. Melees learn this really fast usually, because putting away/pulling out your weapons suuuuuuuucks between mobs, autoengage/attack is a free ultra-low delay attack round basically.

It is actually faster to switch target manually rather than rely on auto-target if you're shooting for the fastest transitions. Calling in dynamis the last few years I can't even use auto-target, so I'm rather good at changing targets fast on my own. Especially since I've always believed that the success of a run is largely dependent on the speed of your caller (as well as many other factors, of course).

It's nothing hard to do or anything and most people probably know how to do it (if not do it already), but if you time it right you can change targets in the lag between engaging/unengaging, and do it before the game actually unengages you. Resulting in you changing target without losing delay or having to re-engage, it's hard to explain.

But yeah, through an exp PT (and in Dynamis/Einherjar) I usually press enter on "Switch Target" towards the end of the fight so that the blue cursor comes up, and then in the split second between a mob dieing you target and press enter (tab + enter) on the next mob and you'll never disenagage nor lose delay. It's the best way to change targets, and over the course of the PT makes a rather noticable difference in your DoT.

It's something that most people probably know, but figure I'd explain it anyway just in case.

People will always differ on opinions of this. At this stage I think it's silly to try to say which is the single best regardless of your position, as we're not in 2005 anymore where people think the only one that's even worthwhile is Horn and maybe Aegis, and melee relics feel they have to justify themselves. Since then we've changed and learned a lot, and learned that many of the relics are good in various different ways. At this point anything else really isn't important.

And, I'm likely upgrading an Apoc in the near future, but that's not changing anything about how I feel about this. Despite seeing the best DRK I know use one to what I believe to be its max potential (if not incredibly close) over the last 6-8 months.

Why am I not surprised. You keep stating over and over again that you think so and so is equaled and that so and so is not any better than other, but contradict yourself by continuing remind us how YOUR pimped out SAM regularly outparses two other MAXIMALLY PIMPED OUT Brav and Apoc. Which is essentially saying, "In the optimum situation with the best possible gear available, SAM with Amano is top tier, with the other two falling behind." If that's the case, cool; after all, it's simply game mechanic. But, please, spare me the the B.S. Just come out and say it already: you think Amano is the greatest shit ever. Stop beating around the bush with your math and numbers and almost foaming at the mouth anytime anyone has a different opinion about relics that isn't AMANOZON IS TEH GREAATEZT!

Have you ever stopped to think about how your logic doesn't make sense? lol... I mean, look! Right in the quote I said, that you just quoted, I mention NOTHING if my relic SAM. Yet you're saying I do it non-stop, always, after every comment as if I can't say one thing positive about another relic without saying something about my own? Even though, in the last what 3-4 posts, I never mention GK once. It's so awesome how much sense it doesn't make!

Look, there are no secret ties or objectives here, I am flat out saying I 100% believe they're equal as far as anyone should be concerned (if one squeezes out 1-4% more damage over time, so be it, but who gives a shit when you're 10-20% above everyone else). And yes, of course I'm praising Amanomurakumo the most. But, man, how could this be true?

Oh wait, I know... It's because the only Relic I actually have first-hand-I-own-this-relic-type experience with... Is Amanomurakumo. And, if you didn't know already, I'm known more for my passion for tanking than anything else... Which is something that I can do on SAM with Amano, that I couldn't do otherwise. Why oh why would I love Amano so much when it allows me to do what I like to do most, and it's the relic I own? I have no idea, if you figure it out let me know.

Also, if you figure out why I would frequently praise any other relic that I don't own, have no personal experience with, and can't use myself... When I base almost everything on math and my own experiences... Please let me know that too!

Despite this though, my last what... Three posts? Had absolutely nothing to do with Amano, and everything to do with maximizing damage potential as a Bravura/Apoc user. I don't see anything about Amano at all in my last 3-4 posts, so you'll have to show me exactly where I'm putting in this subliminal "AMANO RULES THE WORLD" message that you seem to be seeing.

Also, please notice that any and every time I speak about Amano in a positive light, I'm also referring to it as "I think", "IMO", "I believe", or "I feel", which is not something you can use against me as anything other than my opinion.

On a smiley note, since this it he next post:

Whenever I've parsed the two wses, metatron actually averages higher than raging rush. This is probably because you'll miss some raging rush hits occasionally lowering the avg while with metatron the only time you'll do low damage is if you double attack and miss the first hit. Damage wise, I've posted plenty of parses before so I don't really understand why people thought bravura damage was bad, it's just that hitting things for BIG DAMAGE gets boring after a while.

I actually didn't know that, although it makes sense. Since Metatron is hit or miss big damage (with misses being discarded from WS average), and RR is hit for big damage or miss and do no damage (both being parsed).

I'm actually curious though, as to whether you think spamming Metatron 100% of the time or RR is the better choice?

You people must be retarded or some shit.

Get this in your head: I couldn't give two shit which is best or which relic is most broken. You fuckers are retarded beyond belief.

The point is, it gets tiring seeing someone tippy-toeing around what he really wants to say and what we already fucking know: Relic SAM is fucking AWESOME. It's OK to come out and say it.

It's the bullshit Rkenshin keeps trying to feed you. He's telling you there's no clear cut winner, and that everything is equal, but yet, somehow a Relic SAM with optimum gear outparses an Apoc and Brav WAR and DRK. Doesn't this clearly show that THERE IS IN FACT A BEST? THERE IS IN FACT NO EQUAL LIKE HE INSISTS? How the fuck is something equal when given the optimum scenario, a relic SAM is outparsing the other two by 4%, which, at the highest level, is a big margin.

That's the whole gist I have a problem with. It's a fucking game, made by human beings who aren't perfect. Therefore, there is no equal -- in this case, a pimped out Relic SAM is the best DD in the game. Even if this is an opinion, it's OK to have one. It's the constant bullshit of telling me there's no equal, but remind me how you magically outparse people because you rock so much ass that I find insulting.

To someone who thinks I have a grudge: no, read my post history and see if I've ever insulted Rkenshin or come aggressive at him in the past. We're not even on the same server. I call bullshit whenever I see it, no bias or grudge.

I don't see anyone being retarded and drawing conclusions from inconclusive evidence other than you.

I do think relic SAM is fucking awesome. There, happy?

But guess what, before any of this arguing/debating started... you know what I said? In your terms, "relic weapons are fucking awesome!" I very clearly stated my opinion on the fact I think all relics could be really amazing when used to their full potential. Did you miss that?

I heard apoc sucked for like 2 years... Thats the reason I only ask people that have the weapon..

I think all weapons are amazing in their own regard, problem is that it takes someone with the right gear and frame of mind to use a weapon to its fullest potential before it's recognized as being worthwhile. This is obviously in addition to making their experiences public so that it can be known to more than just the few people they interact with on their server.

Which combined, sadly, is rather rare. .

Personally I really think that Gugnir in the right hands could be really powerful, but we just don't see that anywhere. On the same note I know first hand that Bravura packs a lot of power; a lot more than most people probably realize. But, again, similar problem with it not being publicized as so.

OH MAN! Look at me talk ONLY about how Amano is the best fucking relic ever! It's unbelievable! I say that they're equal yet look, I only talk about Amano... Oh wait, no, I only talked about Amano later when the topic changed to that. Man, you're way off.

And, seriously, do you realize that by saying they're all equal when I out-parse someone with a relic... I'm in fact saying that, I recognize and know that there are MORE factors that effect how you parse than simply how good your merits/gear/relic weapon is? I didn't think I had to spell it out, but I guess for people like you I do. I wish I was on my desktop or I would post a picture of Lhexh saying something like this in LS chat:

"Ruke cheats, he'll get a 2-4% advantage on the parse just from being Ruke and engaging faster, using WS faster, etc... Take 2-4% off of his parses and you're left with the real deal"

Lhexh just basically said that in a post in this thread. People say stuff like this to me all the time, and as silly as it is the "You're the Rukenshin" crap is I guess it really does mean something on the parse as I do feel I am probably one of the better people in swinging a parse in my favor just by being a faster engager/WS-user. Because of this, I am and always have been willing to agree that my parse results will always be slightly inflated in my favor because whether its subconsciously or not I have been known to do that. This, is why I agree that they're equal despite my parses, but you just had to take that the wrong way didn't you?

This is why I've been saying that despite my results being higher, I'm willing to accept that in realty they're equal. Because if I was parsing against myself with an Apoc I'm sure it would be different. I'm sorry I have to spell this out for you.

You must be stupid. No where in my post did I make any sort of claim that so and so is better. Therefore I don't need to use any numbers or stats, you jackoff.

What I was calling him out on is his usual nice-guy-but-I-just-happen-to-fucking-rock bullshit. He keeps repeating this mantra that no single relic is the best and that they're all equaled, BUT THEN TURNS AROUND AND PROVIDES NUMBERS AND PARSES THAT CLEARLY SHOWS OTHERWISE.

It's the passive-aggressive self-gloat that gets annoying. Like I said, nobody gives a fuck if you come right out and say Amano is the best, because I have parsed so and so with so and so and this is the conclusion. Who's to argue?

What IS retarded, though, is the constant indirect bragging of how every relic is equal and there's no single best relic... but hey, somehow, it just so happens that he outparses these uber pimped out relic holders, despite his claim that they're all supposedly equal.

So, what is it? Is it because there IS a single best relic that you're outparsing these guys? Or is it because you are just so much better than everyone else that you somehow manage to outparse everyone despite having no advantages?

Because I can't try to be nice, while at the same time having a rather in depth knowledge of the game? I don't get it. I guess I should be more of an asshole to people, according ot you?

My numbers and parses don't clearly show otherwise. I just posted only what, 3-4 posts ago (?) that all these mathematical calculations don't represent realistic situations accurately. Even my attempt to more accurately represent how an Apoc would perform is, as I acknowledged, in actuality still not accurate.

And really, what is your argument? You're trying to tell me that I'm superficial because I out-parse these relics, all the while saying that in hindsight we're all about equal? I mean, you ever hear of error-control? I'm the only person I know of that does this, does that mean I should confide in my own example and believe that Amano is the most powerful relic? No, I'm not an idiot. And you'd be an idiot to think so and frankly I can't believe you even think my single example is worth basing something so concrete on.

Just because I outparsed one Apoc DRK, and one Bravura WAR, doesn't mean Amano is the best. It is common sense... Parsing against one Apoc/Bravura is NOT equivalent to parsing against all of them... And I recognize this, so why can't you? I recognize this to the point where I am more than willing to believe that, put against another Apoc/Bravura relic, I may in fact lose the parse. Because why? Because the experiences of one person does not apply to every person server-wide... So, why is this so hard for you to realize?

It's not modesty, it's not two-faced ethics, and it's nothing complicated... It is simply what makes sense. It doesn't matter if every person on my server upgrades melee relics and I out-parse them all, I said what I believe. And I believe that, all the technical shit aside, you're looking at three relics with near equal capabilities. Hell, if you count Gungnir (which I also said is likely just as good), it's four.

The end. Don't try to tell me what I believe.


EDIT: I WRITE SHORT POSTS LOL

[Darkwill]

Could have made it shorter but sums a lot lol

[RKenshin]

I think I get more verbose when I'm drunk.

A summary, without all the fun action, is as so:

- Max, transitioning manually is actually faster than relying on auto-target if you can perfect it.

- JeanClause, you're wrong and assuming my intentions. You're incorrect by a huge margin in thinking you know what I was trying to say, advertise, and do in the last few posts. I've only supported relics other than Amano in my last posts. When I support Amano, it's because I do have a lot of fun with it (big surprise?) and enjoy what it does. But, I am one person, and regardless of if I out-parse everyone on my server if they all upgraded melee relics it doesn't mean my relic is the the "best". My whole point this entire time is that relics are more than just about the parse results, and that parses tell you nothing about who engaged faster, WS'd faster, etc, throughout a PT to begin with. So no, your points don't make sense.

- Underscore, curious if you think Metatron spam is better than RR spam.

- IT IS SO HARD TO TYPE CLEARY.

EDIT:

- Not updating LJ tonight like I promised. <.<

[Cairthenn]

EDIT:

- Not updating LJ tonight like I promised. <.<

Half of the world's population just killed themselves.

[RKenshin]

I have a headache from focusing so hard on writing coherently and making sense for the 15 minutes of making that post lol.. No LJ!;

[finale23]

I have a headache from focusing so hard on writing coherently and making sense for the 15 minutes of making that post lol.. No LJ!;

btw, whatever happened to sphyiel, are you guys still dating?

[Sylphet]

Is that supposed to be my name or is he seeing someone behind my back?

[Cairthenn]

Is that supposed to be my name or is he seeing someone behind my back?

Oh, you didn't know?

[RKenshin]

Is that supposed to be my name or is he seeing someone behind my back?

Baby, honey... Sphyiel means nothing to me baby you know that.

[finale23]

Is that supposed to be my name or is he seeing someone behind my back?

Baby, honey... Sphyiel means nothing to me baby you know that.

hahah, sorry im really bad with names... how you guys been?

[underscore]

In a merit party where i'm trying to maximize damage I'd rather spam raging rush, because that extra swing to 100%tp for wsing can mean the difference between getting the chain or not. For hnms, damage on metatron really sucks so it's similar to kaiten in that sense but I'll still mix it in with raging rush/steel cyclone for the def. down effect.

[Max™]

I know swapping manually is faster, as I said, I leave autotarget on, but generally am picking my own target.

I just suggested to Izzy that it might help him keep up with career meriters a little better, as it's easier to make sure you're facing the right way, than it is to snag the right target sometimes, especially when it's behind/off to your side, and as you get the hang of it you start to use both.



In fact I did say something to the effect of Ruke cheats by using all the little advantages he can, watching his TP/TP return like a hawk, predicting down to the start of an animation swing when he can WS, working the timers, not casting Utsusemi, getting a feel for when a mob is going to die to someone elses swing/WS and being on the next mob already, hell, even getting a habit of using JA's during melee attacks when possible so the swing animation cancels the JA effect, all those little things help... I know, it helps me make the most of my work in progress gear, and less than ideal race. (loltaru)