Stage 5 - Completed Relic Weapons List

[Eaglestrike]

There's 3 tiers of relics. Game altering, useful and nice to have, and status only. Mandau is in the second, Claustrum is in the third. But honestly, big fucking deal if someone in tier 3 is fucking it up for someone in tier 2. Neither one is game altering and both are toys, one is just a toy that'll get a little more use than the other.

If SE made a PUP relic, what tier would that fall under?

Depends on if the relic is Alexander or not.

[Lordender]

There's 3 tiers of relics. Game altering, useful and nice to have, and status only. Mandau is in the second, Claustrum is in the third. But honestly, big fucking deal if someone in tier 3 is fucking it up for someone in tier 2. Neither one is game altering and both are toys, one is just a toy that'll get a little more use than the other.

Thats why SE failed with relic weapons, they should all be game altering. Relic weapons are supposed to be the ultimate weapon in the game nothing should outdo them, they shouldn't just be e-peen toys.

[Damane]

EDIT:
SE failed in mage relic weapons extremly (ecxeption horn), Why not make Mjollnir have a +20% healing potency, adds refresh and -6 enmity or so status on it. Instead they give it a +20 attack and an additional restores MP status.
Or makeing Claustrum have a -4 Avatar perpetuation cost and boosting all Elemental magic dmg up with 25% and instead of adding some kind of new WS for mage relic weapons, adding some exclusiv very helpfull Spell/Avatar/Nuke. Claustrum would give "Meteor" (or -ga IV spells) and a new Avatar? Or Mjollnir makeing all your status curespells AoE isntead of giving you a weaponskill? That would be somekind of motivating for mages to upgrade relics. Guess its too late for SE to change things about relic, or else everyone who put his currency in some relic weapon would start screaming (which I understand). I find all melee relic weapons good, the stats are realy good on it. I just dont get it what SE was thinking when they designed the relic weapons of the mages.

[Minions]

SE failed in mage relic weapons extremly (ecxeption horn), Why not make Mjollnir have a +20% healing potency, adds refresh and -6 enmity or so status on it. Instead they give it a +20 attack and an additional restores MP status.
Or makeing Claustrum have a -4 Avatar perpetuation cost and boosting all Elemental magic dmg up with 25%. That would be somekind of motivating for mages to upgrade relics. Guess its too late for SE to change things about relic, or else everyone who put his currency in some relic weapon would start screaming (which I understand). I find all melee relic weapons good, the stats are realy good on it. I just dont get it what SE was thinking when they designed the relic weapons of the mages.

Except 90% of the modifiers on the relic weapons are garbage as well....

[Damane]

Except 90% of the modifiers on the relic weapons are garbage as well....

Yet as melee you will still use your relic almost 100% of the time when you play your melee job, while my whm would be useing an Apollo's Staff almost 100% of the time even if I had an mjollnir.

EDIT: but yes I agree the melee relic weapons could be a bit better, tough they still are far away from being useless.

[NynJa]

There's 3 tiers of relics. Game altering, useful and nice to have, and status only. Mandau is in the second, Claustrum is in the third. But honestly, big fucking deal if someone in tier 3 is fucking it up for someone in tier 2. Neither one is game altering and both are toys, one is just a toy that'll get a little more use than the other.

Maybe for you...but Mandau completely revamped thief for me.

[Beckwin]

I can see how having a different, slightly stronger WS to stack with SA/TA totally changes how you fight HNM with your LS.

[Ryko]

You have to remember dude, he subbed WHM and swore up and down that thief couldnt do dick to fafnir before he got his knife.

[NynJa]

I can see how having a different, slightly stronger WS to stack with SA/TA totally changes how you fight HNM with your LS.

Mercy Stroke isnt much stronger than Evisceration or DE overall. In fact, when I do a straight up 'in your face' WS, I use Evisceration most of the time.

However, when it comes to HNM's, Evisceraion and DE usually blow (unless you're subbing /drk) because you need to focus on a multitude of stats (STR DEX AGI(if TA applicable) ATK ACC), even Shark Bite requires some accuracy for that second hit, though if it misses, its not as evident as on Evis/DE.

Now, enter Mercy Stroke. A 1 hit weapon skill. Which melee job is the most potent at lvls 33-50ish ?? Thief. Remember the power of Viper Bite, when thieves didnt have to worry about accuracy in their WS due to Sneak Attack's 100% accuracy ensuring the hit ?? Mercy Stroke brings you back there, though without the double-your-attack mod.

For those who dont understand thief, or how SA/ATA works, they wont understand how job changing an endgame 1 hit weapon skill for thief is. It is HUGE.

[Ryko]

It makes you capable of more damage per 100 TP, it didn't change a thing about the job's utiltiy though.

[NynJa]

You have to remember dude, he subbed WHM and swore up and down that thief couldnt do dick to fafnir before he got his knife.

HEY LETS QUOTE WHAT NYNJA SAID 2 YEARS AGO !!!!!111

Do me a favor and tell me where your thieves were doing at Dragon's Aery two fucking years ago in regards to damage ??


You know how things were for thieves when I said that ??
1-Our best weapon was a D26 Gully+1
2-Assassin did not exist.
3-Homam did not exist.


But keep attacking me based on shit I said TWO FUCKING YEARS AGO, considering the games been available to NA's for like 4 years..

[Beckwin]

job changing an endgame 1 hit weapon skill

Job Change -> Samurai?

[Ryko]

Actually I was referring to the argument you had with chiz that you actually ended up bringing here afterwards. At that time we were referring to (about 19 months ago, but in reality closer to 14 since chiz's shell and his thief didnt get to do much to nidhogg until about then) blau existed and was actually pretty damn common amongst end-game thieves. Assassin definitely existed since our main thief back when our shell started doing aery wasn't even 70 when the patch got added, and we sure as hell were all 75 by the time we went there. Homam got added mid-way, between the time we dominated aery and chiz's shell started showing up. It's no one's fault that you were blind to your job before you spent 15k currency on it. The dagger didn't change a thing about your job, feint has had a more noticeable effect on the job's contributions than that D39 piece in your right hand. You remind me of dracu in a way.

More caps please, it totally changes the numbers.

[Dank]

No pics but...

Cerberus - Aegis - Callidus

and in the next coupla weeks another will be finished, just have to kill the animated Scythe...

Cerberus - Apocalypse - Taint

I'll post an update when we kill the weapon.

[RKenshin]

I hate to continue this further but one thing that always kind of bugged me about this type of argument is I really don't see Aegis/Horn to be some 'revolutionary item that always changes the way your LS does everything in endgame.' No item really does that, and whether my LS obtained a several of each of those honestly wouldn't have that much of an impact on fights, and I'm sure there are a good deal of other linkshells that can generally agree.

In all honesty our typical tanking setups/strategies work just about as good as possible in most situations bar unavoidable mistakes, and tossing an Aegis into that would just be a nice bonus. It wouldn't change anything or revolutionize our fights/strategies. In an average situation with our normal tanks MP is almost never much of a problem, neither is losing hate, nor tanks dieing or anything of the like. I realize the effect of an Aegis PLD varies from LS to LS based on strategies, but the fact that you could accomplish just as much with one as you could without one dispels the whole idea of it being revolutionary IMO.

The same basically applies for horn, although it's much more versatile in its function just because it can be useful in nearly all situations. But, again, I don't see the extra MP as something revolutionary. No doubt that in some fights it could make a considerable difference and even be the only thing keeping you alive, but then again in some fights it won't. And, if that extra MP really always is the only thing keeping you alive, then there has to be something very wrong.

Don't confuse what I'm saying though, I'm not degrading the utility or quality of either of them. Both are without a doubt great relics that have great potential in helping an LS, I'm just saying I don't believe them to be revolutionary or items that allow you to do what others can't do.

[divisortheory]

There's 3 tiers of relics. Game altering, useful and nice to have, and status only. Mandau is in the second, Claustrum is in the third. But honestly, big fucking deal if someone in tier 3 is fucking it up for someone in tier 2. Neither one is game altering and both are toys, one is just a toy that'll get a little more use than the other.

Maybe for you...but Mandau completely revamped thief for me.

It did for me too. But it certainly didn't change the way I approach endgame fights. Aegis and Gjallarhorn do. Aegis and Gjallarhorn open the door to entirely new strategies that aren't even possible without them. Mandau is strong as fuck, but in the end, all it does is more damage, and in fights that are an hour or 2 hours, more damage doesn't really matter.

The same basically applies for horn, although it's much more versatile in its function just because it can be useful in nearly all situations. But, again, I don't see the extra MP as something revolutionary. No doubt that in some fights it could make a considerable difference and even be the only thing keeping you alive, but then again in some fights it won't. And, if that extra MP really always is the only thing keeping you alive, then there has to be something very wrong.

If you can show me a single PT of people who can kill Jorm with 6 people, no horn, and no shield, I'll agree with you.

[RKenshin]

I knew someone would bring that up before I even made my post, but I didn't think it was worth debating further.

Honestly though that's the worst argument you can make, for several reasons. First of all, is your linkshell normally in a situation where you're going to be fighting Jorgy with 6 or less people? If you answer no, then what good is a horn/aegis if that's the only situation you can think of where those items could be a limiting factor? Is it common for linkshells to fight Jorgy like that? Do the rewards make it more than worth it?

All those questions answer no. With that in mind, you could safely call it an advantage of little to no importance. Using the Jorgy fight as an example of a relic bringing something new to the table is just as bad as using new SC opportunities for a relic weapon as something new they bring to the table.

Second of all, I read everything encompassing that fight when it was first posted, and the PLD even admitted that Aegis was not required or even very useful for the fight. So, first you can rule out the Aegis.

As for Horn, I'm not going to waste time looking for screens, but the damage that he took with Aegis was about 200+ for normal air attacks. Fixing the setup, using a PLD/NIN or NIN/DRK or whatever, you could make an Ice resist set and take <30 damage 90% of the time. Or, even just using a good deal of magic defense gear (which he admitted to not using), you could reduce the aerial attacks to about ~160 consistently. Those adjustments alone would save a considerable amount of MP used for Curing, arguably more than enough to outweigh the extra MP/tick that the Horn provided. Only debatable aspect is whether BLM MP could keep up on damage, which is hard to say since I don't know anything about the BLM's gear or strategy.

Quite frankly though, I honestly don't care enough about it to fight Jorgy for 2-6 hours (forgot how long it took?) just to say it could be done, seeing as four 100k ores definitely don't make it worth it. I really don't think anyone does either.

[NynJa]

Quite frankly though, I honestly don't care enough about it to fight Jorgy for 2-6 hours (forgot how long it took?) just to say it could be done, seeing as four 100k ores definitely don't make it worth it. I really don't think anyone does either.

"I spent 200++ mil and wasted 6 hours just to say I could kill Jorm with 6 ppl"


I really dont care about drawn out fights unless they're meant to be drawn out as part of the strategy (and JoL's regen doesnt count either).

There arent any mobs off the top of my head where strats need to radically change over the course of a fight. High HP on the mobs is just to make shit last longer.

[divisortheory]

It's not the importance of that specific fight that matters, the example only serves to illustrate a point about what you can do when you have infinite MP. And that's one of the things you can do. It's by no means the only possibility that infinite MP opens up.

[RKenshin]

The fact that's the only example where it's 'believed' to make something new possible speaks enough towards how game breaking/revolutionary it is IMO. I'll still argue that just about anything worthwhile that could be done with either of those relics could be done without them.