Throwing a religious debate out there

[Jerseyprophet]

Slow day at the day job, so I'm gonna throw out a debate I was listening to on Kidd Chris yesterday.

Now, before I say it, bear in mind I am a wiccan and I do not feel that either view point is wrong. Unlike christians (cheap shot, sorry) I dont believe it's our right to judge anyone.

Ok, here it is.

If humans were never intended to be able to love someone of the same sex, why are we capable of those emotions? Before you use the "free will" defense, bear in mind that no matter how much choice I have in loving a dog or a plant romantically, we are not capable of it. So, if we as humans ARE capable of loving someone of the same sex - is it not possible that god intended us to be able? Didn't he just want us to be happy?

Loving my wife brings me alot of happiness. If a girl and a girl, or a man and a man are truely happy and love one another, than good for them, damn it. Let them live. I can't see, no matter how hard I try, that a god who proclaims to love his beings so very much wouldn't want them - or intend them - to be happy.

[Elcura]

NOT ANOTHER RELIGIOUS DEBATE!

What will we do?!

On topic, we judge everyone! I'm judging you right now.

and now, and now, and now...

[Jerseyprophet]

I want OBGYN's to be able to practice their love with women...

I want Septimus to be able to practice his love with galka.

[Norelco]

To the OP...it's because most people who are religious are overzealous and take everything they read in the Bible way too literally. Allegory and metaphors are lost on them.

[Daahan]

I never saw people of the same sex loving each other as a result of God's will; rather, they love each other through human rationale.

I believe in God, but I do not believe that God controls every single aspect of every single human being's life. That's not to say that he can't control it, he can, but he doesn't. That's how I have always looked at history.

[Eaglestrike]

People can't romantically love their pets? Go read some posts on that beastforums that was linked a while back, some people are really messed up in the head. Not that I'm likening homosexuality to beastiality, OP started that

What is said in the Bible is not that humans 'can't' but they shouldn't act on it. OT quotes is "if a man lieth with another man, it is an abomination" and NT says "...homosexual offenders..." it actually never states that the homosexual mindset is the 'sin'. The problem is homosexual sex, so the loving of one another is a-ok, just no sex!

What I find interesting about this is a number of OT laws are for the protection of the people, like don't eat red meat because undercooked meat can cause lost of sickness. And there are STD's linked to being more common in homosexuals, or at least the AIDS awareness paper I signed about donating blood makes me think so.

[Unklemonkey]

What is said in the Bible is not that humans 'can't' but they shouldn't act on it. OT quotes is "if a man lieth with another man, it is an abomination" and NT says "...homosexual offenders..." it actually never states that the homosexual mindset is the 'sin'. The problem is homosexual sex, so the loving of one another is a-ok, just no sex!

The bible also says that the touching of dead pig skin is a sin, and look how many people play football, or eat hams. It also says to not eat bottomfeeders. (Shrimp, Pigs, Lobster, etc) That might be in the old testament, but it's still in the bible. Slavery was also all around in New Testament times, people even sold their first born daughters into slavery, but I don't remember Jesus preaching out against slavery or saving people from slavery, does that mean it is ok to have slaves?

The bible was written over 2,000 years ago, the old testament even longer than that. The book could have easily been changed by any King or Priest if they wanted to, hence why it should be taken as a guide book rather than full out truth. The problem with the logic of "it says so in the bible!" is that most people who say that take one part of the bible as literal fact, while brushing another part off as times changing.

[Jerseyprophet]

My question is how accurate the many many different versions of the bible are. It's both a translation and an adaptation by man.

Simply saying "the bible says sex between men/women is an abomination" is putting your faith in what could well be man made law.

Of course, religions in their whole can be viewed that way.

I'm still waiting for a concrete answer as to what proof there is that the bible is word-for-word dictation from god, and that there is no mistake on the man who wrote it.

I'll be fair -- I'll say the same for Wiccan traditions and teachings. I have no proof where they came from, and how modified they are.

It's all a person's personal belief / modification of religious beliefs.

Dare I say that it would be possible to be a christian who feels that gay marriage is not a sin? Think for yourself.

[Eaglestrike]

What is said in the Bible is not that humans 'can't' but they shouldn't act on it. OT quotes is "if a man lieth with another man, it is an abomination" and NT says "...homosexual offenders..." it actually never states that the homosexual mindset is the 'sin'. The problem is homosexual sex, so the loving of one another is a-ok, just no sex!

The bible also says that the touching of dead pig skin is a sin, and look how many people play football, or eat hams. It also says to not eat bottomfeeders. (Shrimp, Pigs, Lobster, etc) That might be in the old testament, but it's still in the bible. Slavery was also all around in New Testament times, people even sold their first born daughters into slavery, but I don't remember Jesus preaching out against slavery or saving people from slavery, does that mean it is ok to have slaves?

The bible was written over 2,000 years ago, the old testament even longer than that. The book could have easily been changed by any King or Priest if they wanted to, hence why it should be taken as a guide book rather than full out truth. The problem with the logic of "it says so in the bible!" is that most people who say that take one part of the bible as literal fact, while brushing another part off as times changing.

You're right in that you should think about what is said in the Bible in context. If you want to truly understand what Jesus meant by what he said, don't just listen to his words, you want to know why he had to tell people these things and what he was trying to change by doing/saying what he did. The same goes for what Paul said. Best example is that some Churches like to quote Paul saying that women should not speak in Church. But what was happening was there were some crazy women who wouldn't shut the hell up at a Church, so he told them to stfu in a letter to them. It was specific to that Church, it wasn't meant to be a Christian law.

For those laws, could there be any logical reason for it? Like if you eat too many bottomfeeders the ecosystem will get fucked up, or you'll mess up the population of other animals, etc? Or maybe there are some diseases you can get if you don't cook things just right? I mean now with our technology and knowledge we know the effects of a lot of what we do, back then people had no clue, I think a number of OT laws were meant just as basic rules to keep things in balance so humans don't fuck everything up (not that it worked...)

Edit:

My question is how accurate the many many different versions of the bible are. It's both a translation and an adaptation by man.

Simply saying "the bible says sex between men/women is an abomination" is putting your faith in what could well be man made law.

Of course, religions in their whole can be viewed that way.

I'm still waiting for a concrete answer as to what proof there is that the bible is word-for-word dictation from god, and that there is no mistake on the man who wrote it.

I'll be fair -- I'll say the same for Wiccan traditions and teachings. I have no proof where they came from, and how modified they are.

It's all a person's personal belief / modification of religious beliefs.

Dare I say that it would be possible to be a christian who feels that gay marriage is not a sin? Think for yourself.

I don't think the Bible is dictated from God. I think there is an amount of human thought inside of it, which is why I also think context needs to be put into consideration when you read it. You should try to find out who the author is, what kind of life he lead, who he was writing things to, etc.

If there was no sex within the marriage, I would say no sinning is being resulted from being homosexual. Honestly I'm not sure if homosexual sex IS completely a sin, because of what I've said in this thread, but considering it's not something I'm going to indulge in and I'm not the one who decides who goes where, I don't really need to figure that out.

[Anyway]

Like Stephen Colbert says:

"How do we know everything in the bible is true? Because it says so in the bible."

[Jerseyprophet]

I'm impressed Eagle. You have a clear judgement in your following. We may not agree, but that's half the fun of free will isn't it?

[Zigma]

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5756/nutsxo4.gif

[Unklemonkey]

Like Stephen Colbert says:

"How do we know everything in the bible is true? Because it says so in the bible."

Lol, Colbert is a genius

[Eaglestrike]

I'm impressed Eagle. You have a clear judgement in your following. We may not agree, but that's half the fun of free will isn't it?

Yeah. I probably dislike organized religion about as much as anyone else here. I think making Church huge is what really fucked things up. I don't think a Church should really be run by anyone but the people at it, certainly not by some guy thousands of miles away that has never met you. Jesus and Paul always talked to people they personally met, Jesus talked to them in person and Paul sent letters back to people he personally met. They kept things on a far more personal level than religion is run these days. And the fact that religion is 'run' is messed up itself.

[Norelco]

I have a crazy theory that homosexuality could be a built in mechanism for helping (not the sole solution, but 1 countermeasure) of over-population. Obviously two partners of the same sex cannot reproduce unless they pull surrogate father/mother type of thing.

Or not...in ancient Greece homosexuality was normal, as senators or other men in some form of office or power frequently took on young boys as apprentices and well...you can probably guess the rest. But most of these men had wives anyway, so that could still support my crazy theory from above.

[Eaglestrike]

I have a crazy theory that homosexuality could be a built in mechanism for helping (not the sole solution, but 1 countermeasure) of over-population. Obviously two partners of the same sex cannot reproduce unless they pull surrogate father/mother type of thing.

Or not...in ancient Greece homosexuality was normal, as senators or other men in some form of office or power frequently took on young boys as apprentices and well...you can probably guess the rest. But most of these men had wives anyway, so that could still support my crazy theory from above.

Which points to homosexuality being a perversion and largely sexually based. My personal opinion is that it's something you're born with and it's just a test given by God. I think most people could point at something that is their 'sin' in life, maybe some more than others, homosexuals are lust and just so happens to be of the same sex as well.

[Lordwafik]

I have a crazy theory that homosexuality could be a built in mechanism for helping (not the sole solution, but 1 countermeasure) of over-population. Obviously two partners of the same sex cannot reproduce unless they pull surrogate father/mother type of thing.

Or not...in ancient Greece homosexuality was normal, as senators or other men in some form of office or power frequently took on young boys as apprentices and well...you can probably guess the rest. But most of these men had wives anyway, so that could still support my crazy theory from above.

Which points to homosexuality being a perversion and largely sexually based. My personal opinion is that it's something you're born with and it's just a test given by God. I think most people could point at something that is their 'sin' in life, maybe some more than others, homosexuals are lust and just so happens to be of the same sex as well.

Please tell me more about this twisted test of being born a certain way, out of their own control, then being told they are going to hell for it if they even think it, letalone act apon it, lol.

[Eaglestrike]

I have a crazy theory that homosexuality could be a built in mechanism for helping (not the sole solution, but 1 countermeasure) of over-population. Obviously two partners of the same sex cannot reproduce unless they pull surrogate father/mother type of thing.

Or not...in ancient Greece homosexuality was normal, as senators or other men in some form of office or power frequently took on young boys as apprentices and well...you can probably guess the rest. But most of these men had wives anyway, so that could still support my crazy theory from above.

Which points to homosexuality being a perversion and largely sexually based. My personal opinion is that it's something you're born with and it's just a test given by God. I think most people could point at something that is their 'sin' in life, maybe some more than others, homosexuals are lust and just so happens to be of the same sex as well.

Please tell me more about this twisted test of being born a certain way, out of their own control, then being told they are going to hell for it if they even think it, letalone act apon it, lol.

I said everyone is born with a form of sin, a special weakness really. I also never stated they'd be going to Hell for it. Technically everyone is going to Hell because we're all fucked from the start going by the book, I've never said the homosexuals were extra special going to hell and have their own dorm there or anything of the sort. I actually likened them to like everyone else. Some people have greed issues (money, items) and some pride, etc.

[Norelco]

I said everyone is born with a form of sin, a special weakness really. I also never stated they'd be going to Hell for it. Technically everyone is going to Hell because we're all fucked from the start going by the book, I've never said the homosexuals were extra special going to hell and have their own dorm there or anything of the sort. I actually likened them to like everyone else. Some people have greed issues (money, items) and some pride, etc.

I watched Heroes last night...I wish we were born with a special strength. That would be much cooler.

I thought Jesus died for our sins (sins that already happened and sins that will happen) so that basically covers us unless we break one of the commandments or commit a mortal sin.

[Bwelch]

Someone tell me how one is born a homosexual. My rationale points to environmental and childhood development that causes whether someone is straight or homosexual. The idea that "god made me this way" is only a backwater irrational response to a religious individual. Combining the two is in itself completely contradictive. Clearly the bible states that homosexual behavior is not intended yet a majority of homosexuals completely dismisses this as falsely written/transcribed text. Do you really think hundreds of millions of people are going to change what they think about the bible’s proclamation of homosexuality? It hasn’t changed now and it’s not going to happen any time soon.

If you’re homosexual it’s not an insult to be crafted into one through changes in environment and childhood development; it’s the same for being straight.

We know nothing of how we got here, who or what created us or even if we created ourselves. It’s illogical and idiotic to think otherwise. The bible, the Qur’an or whatever piece of fiction you love to dwell in is just a backwater self-help book. Do yourself a favor and come up with your own ideas on how we got to where we are and how you can better improve your own life.