Throwing a religious debate out there

[BRP]

Atheism isn't a religion, its a lack of religion.

[Daahan]

Atheism isn't a religion, its a lack of religion.

I know that.

I said atheism because he was looking for a religion associated with science.

It's called sarcasm.

[Palin]

Neither is agnosticism, its more of a doctrine. Replace religion with "a set of beliefs."

[BRP]

Atheism isn't a religion, its a lack of religion.

I know that.

I said atheism because he was looking for a religion associated with science.

It's called sarcasm.

You'd suprised how many people believe otherwise. Then again, it's cool and different to call yourself an atheist these days, so may it is hard to be surprised.

[layoneil]

That's fucking it. I hate people who try to pervert the word of GOD into something to suit their argument. God created Adam, and then Eve. They were perfect. He created perfect beings. They then CHOSE to sin, and thusly took on the entirety of sin and everything that goes with it.

this is why organized religion is a load of crap.

perfect beings should not make an imperfect choice.

you're not f'n perfect if you choose to sin which will doom your race for all of eternity. if you were perfect you would not have done that.

[Nirokun!]

That's fucking it. I hate people who try to pervert the word of GOD into something to suit their argument. God created Adam, and then Eve. They were perfect. He created perfect beings. They then CHOSE to sin, and thusly took on the entirety of sin and everything that goes with it.

this is why organized religion is a load of crap.

perfect beings should not make an imperfect choice.

you're not f'n perfect if you choose to sin which will doom your race for all of eternity. if you were perfect you would not have done that.

and if god was perfect, he would have made perfect beings proper, not sinners!!! lol, taking philosophy, and they try to explain that god gives us free will to make our stupid decisions, thus freeing up the answer that your sins are not a reflection of god, but of yourself. But god created us in his image? THE IMAGE OF IMPERFECTION (not hating on you Magus, but the point came across in my class, and i addressed it ;x)

[Ryko]

He didn't make them sinners to begin with, he made them able to make mistakes. I still throw the bag on god because if something is omniscient that means he knew what was going to happen. By placing that tree there anyway he was willing to accept that free will was going to be both a blessing and mankind's downfall. That means either he couldn't see it coming (which means he's not all seeing) or that he did and couldn't care less (which means, to me, to some extent that he has just as much capacity to be malevolent as any one else). Something there to me doesn't add up, but that's just me.

[Eaglestrike]

He didn't make them sinners to begin with, he made them able to make mistakes. I still throw the bag on god because if something is omniscient that means he knew what was going to happen. By placing that tree there anyway he was willing to accept that free will was going to be both a blessing and mankind's downfall. That means either he couldn't see it coming (which means he's not all seeing) or that he did and couldn't care less (which means, to me, to some extent that he has just as much capacity to be malevolent as any one else). Something there to me doesn't add up, but that's just me.

What's the point in creating a world and people if they're only going to do exactly what you want them to? Wouldn't you rather be loved because someone chooses to than because they have to...mainly because you made them that way?

Such a test doesn't prove God is imperfect, just means he sees the bigger picture, and that would be such a shocker, wouldn't it?

[Ryko]

The bigger shocker is condemning all of mankind at birth through no active fault of their own unless they jump through rather specific hoops and avoid others because he could have just not given satan a treehouse. He gave free will to people who for all intents and purposes were naive. It's the equivalent of giving someone with the mental maturity of a toddler a rifle. "Dont press that button. Yes, that one. THE ONE I'M POINTING AT, dont touch it or everyone to follow you is royally fucked".

I acknowledged the role that free will plays into all of it (as a failsafe "not-it" clause) and like I said, it still doesn't add up to me. Hell, it got to the point that supposedly even god said it was too much and wiped the slate clean by killing everyone. If that isn't a "ok this shit got out of hand" I don't know what is.

[Quicklet]

Slow day at the day job, so I'm gonna throw out a debate I was listening to on Kidd Chris yesterday.

Now, before I say it, bear in mind I am a wiccan and I do not feel that either view point is wrong. Unlike christians (cheap shot, sorry) I dont believe it's our right to judge anyone.

Ok, here it is.

If humans were never intended to be able to love someone of the same sex, why are we capable of those emotions? Before you use the "free will" defense, bear in mind that no matter how much choice I have in loving a dog or a plant romantically, we are not capable of it. So, if we as humans ARE capable of loving someone of the same sex - is it not possible that god intended us to be able? Didn't he just want us to be happy?

Loving my wife brings me alot of happiness. If a girl and a girl, or a man and a man are truely happy and love one another, than good for them, damn it. Let them live. I can't see, no matter how hard I try, that a god who proclaims to love his beings so very much wouldn't want them - or intend them - to be happy.

I have a question. While religions have certainly made (or followers of religions have interpreted things said as) statements about the morality of homosexuality, what exactly does religion have to do with why humans are capable of emotions that may or may not be contrary to how they should act? Saying "Because God made it that way" doesn't really explain anything unless you really believe that God is the sole reason why things are that way, but that argument usually just means you can't think of any other reasons (which may coincide with the God argument) to explain it one way or the other.

[Maguspk]

That's fucking it. I hate people who try to pervert the word of GOD into something to suit their argument. God created Adam, and then Eve. They were perfect. He created perfect beings. They then CHOSE to sin, and thusly took on the entirety of sin and everything that goes with it.

this is why organized religion is a load of crap.

perfect beings should not make an imperfect choice.

you're not f'n perfect if you choose to sin which will doom your race for all of eternity. if you were perfect you would not have done that.

and if god was perfect, he would have made perfect beings proper, not sinners!!! lol, taking philosophy, and they try to explain that god gives us free will to make our stupid decisions, thus freeing up the answer that your sins are not a reflection of god, but of yourself. But god created us in his image? THE IMAGE OF IMPERFECTION (not hating on you Magus, but the point came across in my class, and i addressed it ;x)

No it's fine I understand your point of view totally. I used to actually wonder it too. My reasoning is this: The bible states that god is selfish. Plain and simple, no changing it, God is a selfish god and likes the praise to be for himself. He doesn't like his creation worshiping "false idols". So he created a being that could make choices, in his image (capable of compassion, love, emotions etc, not his perfection, humans aren't a copy of god, just created in his image, like a "cheap imitation"). When humans were created they knew everything and even so chose God and worshipped him constantly. But they also made the conscious decision to want forbidden knowledge of sin. They made that descision and so God had to sever his relationship with them.

God created man with the capability of choice so that when they CHOSE to worship him it would mean something. Imagine making a machine that says "I love you" all day long, it'd be nothing to you. But if you made a machine which was sentient and chose to love you then it'd probably have a bit more meaning. A good example of this is Chobits, ugh I hate to relate religion to this but it's a good example. Chii learns to love Hideki because of her own choice; not because she's an automated persocon like the others. But ya Shakespeare says it well too:

"Thing won are done, joy's soul lies in the doing"

Things that you have to work for (doing) are much more pleasing than things given to you (won).

[Nirokun!]

man, i dont want to dodge the question, but i think one question answers another

if god was a loving god, why am i this way? Obviously my ideal love and god's ideal love dont coincide, but love is love, and love is good, right? If god didnt want me to love, why am i this way? It is not of my own doing, so who am i to blame? Does god not want me to love? Ever? Is this my test to get into heaven, a life without love? Is it a better choice to live the one life i have with love, and go to hell? Or live a miserable life (the only one i've got, mind you) without love, and go to heaven?

Man, it must suck to believe in god and be gay lol

Arguments:
Why cant you love a woman?
Heaven is forever, hell is forever. Life is not.
[Silverbreeze] You havent meant the right woman yet Niro ^^

Counter-arguments:
(lol) Why cant YOU love a man?
Life is a precious thing, make the best of it. Let only god himself judge my decision to seek love, than to avoid it.
I've met a lot of women, no erection men however... :D

[Ryko]

While sexuality may not be a choice to some, pursuing it is (as can be celibacy). It goes into the whole "free will" not-it clause.

[Eaglestrike]

The bigger shocker is condemning all of mankind at birth through no active fault of their own unless they jump through rather specific hoops and avoid others because he could have just not given satan a treehouse. He gave free will to people who for all intents and purposes were naive. It's the equivalent of giving someone with the mental maturity of a toddler a rifle. "Dont press that button. Yes, that one. THE ONE I'M POINTING AT, dont touch it or everyone to follow you is royally fucked".

I acknowledged the role that free will plays into all of it (as a failsafe "not-it" clause) and like I said, it still doesn't add up to me. Hell, it got to the point that supposedly even god said it was too much and wiped the slate clean by killing everyone. If that isn't a "ok this shit got out of hand" I don't know what is.

Well, if every human was actually condemned at birth, Jesus wouldn't have done what He did. I think the concept is just that if the first two humans, that had actual first hand contact with God on a regular basis, would sin, the rest of mankind is pretty damn likely to do it.

And you'd be amazed how mature little kids can be if brought up right. I'm not saying they wouldn't have those ages of screaming and crying for no reason at all, but my best friend (since 9th grade) had a little brother and sister like 7 and 5 years younger and those kids were hardcore mature and in elementary school. Hell his sister just a year younger is really good looking, exceptionally smart and never had a boyfriend or close to one, because she feels there are more important things in her life...and she's felt that way since like middle school. How often do you hear that from middle school girls? I think God has given a reasonable amount of information to us humans to not be naive, but a lot of us don't get it or refuse to get it.

[Enkidu]

Atheism isn't a religion, its a lack of religion.

In the strict sense of the word, Atheism is "without gods". Calling it a religion is a little ridiculous, but it's a belief based on nothing at all. Agnosticism, on the other hand, doesn't make any unnecessary claims.

It's why I really don't understand why Atheism exists in the first place. If Theism exists to give people hope then Agnosticism exists to be scientific and I really don't see any room for Atheism. If anyone can plainly say that a god or gods don't exist, then I'd like to see their reasoning. I mean even defining the word "god" is tricky. What if there is some alien race 3 galaxies that way that can take the electrical signals we call life and preserve them for all eternity in a perfect "world" along with everyone else we know and love? Is it so far-fetched? Would they be "gods"? Or does god have to be something outside of the universe? In which case all discussion becomes mute as "outside" the universe is a realm that can never be understood.

I don't know, guess I just don't like Atheism at all.

[Almaa]

http://www.godisimaginary.com/

[Enkidu]

http://www.godisimaginary.com/

And now tell me exactly what they're trying to prove and how it exactly pertains to the subject of "god".

[XxSlusherxx]

I don't know why people care so much about not laying with another man anymore, I mean the curtian ripped, I'm not sacraficing a crow on the 7th day after a masturbate anymore...

[Sadler]

This was a discussion we had awhile ago regarding some of this... pretty good read tbh.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/viewt...t=2021&start=0

[Plow]

I'm gonna get some /fuming response to this one I'm sure.

There is something wrong with gay people.

Now, I don't hate gay people, I don't judge gay people, I really don't have any problem with gay people. (Except the ones that have to make sure everyone and their dog knows they're gay, but straight people that have to let eveyone and their dog know they're in love or whatever annoy me just as much)

However, I do not believe that a human being can naturally be gay. I do not believe for 1 second that anyone is ever "born gay." I'm not saying people who are gay choose to be gay, just for the sake of being gay. I'm just saying there *is* a reason that any given gay person is gay.

We all have a lot of shit wrong with us, there's far too many things wrong with me to count. It just so happens that one of the things that is wrong with some people makes them gay.