wtf @ North Korea?

[Xavier]

So you're saying that America unilaterally declared itself world police?

I'd give credit to Hitler, personally.

A lot of countries were involved in that war.

While definitely partisan during the first years, America didn't even really enter the war until they were attacked and their interests and holdings in the Pacific were threatened.

And you have entirely missed the point.

Maybe you should make your point more clear instead of witty one-liners?

Appeasement and pacifism only get you royally fucked in the end.

That clear enough for you?

[Ishido]

[quote=shinobi_tabi]

Seriously, it is a huge flaw in the country. Not only that, but creates a (mostly) negative reputation for us throughout the world, and at the same time costs vast amounts of money.

EDIT: since 3 people posted before me, I'm referring the the "America being world police" thing.

someones got to do it. no one else steps up to the plate.
what if there wasn't a grabage man who picked your garbage up twice a week, who would "want" to do it then?
Bad comparison i know but you get the idea that America wants to be/is involved, while other countries pussyfoot their way around things too much.

So neutrality and not wanting to be involved in costly wars and military
action makes you a pussy?

No. STanding down when a country is firing missile tests 100 miles off your west coast and is building nuclear weapons does.[/quote:63931]

As far as I've heard the only actual missile tests they're done landed about 200 miles west of Japan. They reportedly conducted engine tests that provided estimated ranges of 3,700 miles, which is enough to it parts of Alaska. Feel free to link me to current news where their test missles have come within 100 miles of Alaska or the west coast though.

[aurik]

[quote=Xavier]

So you're saying that America unilaterally declared itself world police?

I'd give credit to Hitler, personally.

A lot of countries were involved in that war.

While definitely partisan during the first years, America didn't even really enter the war until they were attacked and their interests and holdings in the Pacific were threatened.

And you have entirely missed the point.

Maybe you should make your point more clear instead of witty one-liners?

Appeasement and pacifism only get you royally fucked in the end.

That clear enough for you?[/quote:a117f]

I have never advocated appeasement. I am advocating keeping to ones own business.

[BRP]

I hope no one thinks North Korea is a just and noble country. What happens over there is horrible, beyond our understanding as humans. Here is a pro-tip: if the government is preventing people from living, that isn't a good place.

History has told us that you can't just ignore everyone and the world will be at peace. Remember Hitler? Yeah, that didn't turn out well. All the while, people who have lost all hope of living a fair life are being punished, living under brute force or a false lie like Religon.

And, saying the USA's dark history makes us unable to act out of moral is flat out stupid. All "evil" in the world in born from ignorance. No one was born smart, however, as a race, we've grown a lot. We must work to make sure no other great evils are created from the ignorance in the world. If someone is willing to pay the price is another question.

[shinobi_tabi]

I think it came close to 100mile off hawaii once or somthing like that.
Please do not try to act like it is ok since you can prove me wrong or since it is not as close as i said.
fact: they tested missiles that could carry nuclear weapons and could hit our west coast.
if that is ok with you, i don't think you are an american.

[shinobi_tabi]

[quote=aurik][quote=Xavier]

So you're saying that America unilaterally declared itself world police?

I'd give credit to Hitler, personally.

A lot of countries were involved in that war.

While definitely partisan during the first years, America didn't even really enter the war until they were attacked and their interests and holdings in the Pacific were threatened.

And you have entirely missed the point.

Maybe you should make your point more clear instead of witty one-liners?

Appeasement and pacifism only get you royally fucked in the end.

That clear enough for you?[/quote:d596c]

I have never advocated appeasement. I am advocating keeping to ones own business.[/quote:d596c]
Well Nkorea is currently part of Americans news and is part of our business. If this topic is not your business, advocate yourself out.

[BRP]

Guys, http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/templ.../icon_edit.gif

[Xavier]

[quote=aurik][quote=Xavier]

So you're saying that America unilaterally declared itself world police?

I'd give credit to Hitler, personally.

A lot of countries were involved in that war.

While definitely partisan during the first years, America didn't even really enter the war until they were attacked and their interests and holdings in the Pacific were threatened.

And you have entirely missed the point.

Maybe you should make your point more clear instead of witty one-liners?

Appeasement and pacifism only get you royally fucked in the end.

That clear enough for you?[/quote:1a57c]

I have never advocated appeasement. I am advocating keeping to ones own business.[/quote:1a57c]
So long as nations exist, war will exist. Advocating that the people who can make a difference don't is a great way to let true acts of of cruelty persist in the world. The day that everyone lives in harmony is the day your point of view makes sense.

[Gares]

Nukes aren't meant to be used, they're meant to be a deterrence. If North Korea dare to use a nuke it would be over before it started.

In today's day & age where President wants you to think we're putting a stop to terrorist regimes and foiling the plans of supervillans, there's no way he'd let an unprecidented action such as firing a non U.S. nuke at anyone go unpunished. We'd invade North Korea no matter who they fired it at, gut the country and take what we wanted. Probably lay down a few nukes of our own at military targets.

North Korea wants a nuke because they want to be a superpower or they want more pull in the political world, it's having the opposite effect due to their reputation. It'll probably end up where we just pull every political string we can to piss off North Korea w/o being as bold as declaring war.

[aurik]

[quote=Xavier][quote=aurik][quote=Xavier]

So you're saying that America unilaterally declared itself world police?

I'd give credit to Hitler, personally.

A lot of countries were involved in that war.

While definitely partisan during the first years, America didn't even really enter the war until they were attacked and their interests and holdings in the Pacific were threatened.

And you have entirely missed the point.

Maybe you should make your point more clear instead of witty one-liners?

Appeasement and pacifism only get you royally fucked in the end.

That clear enough for you?[/quote:467df]

I have never advocated appeasement. I am advocating keeping to ones own business.[/quote:467df]
So long as nations exist, war will exist. Advocating that the people who can make a difference don't is a great way to let true acts of of cruelty persist in the world. The day that everyone lives in harmony is the day your point of view makes sense.[/quote:467df]

What right do you have to determine whether the difference you make is good or bad? You speak of crusades, not peacekeeping. In the end, you are merely enforcing your values on peoples and lands you have no right to control. So says you that your values are better, and even though I agree on that, it still fails to entitle you to such an enforcement.

[Xavier]

The strong have always ruled over the weak, deal with it. Basic human nature. Do you think the world got to where it is today by respecting what others thought?

For christs sake, Europe fucking carved the entire continent of Africa into its many states at the Berlin Conference, without the influence of Africa.

[BRP]

What right do you have to determine whether the difference you make is good or bad? You speak of crusades, not peacekeeping. In the end, you are merely enforcing your values on peoples and lands you have no right to control. So says you that your values are better, and even though I agree on that, it still fails to entitle you to such an enforcement.

The line is crossed right around the time you let millions of your own people die starving and start firing nuclear missles pretty close to Hawaii. They are not forcing Jesus to anyone. Giving people a chance to live and self-defense are values every sane being on this Earth knows. It doesn't need to be forced on anyone, Jon Kim knows what he is doing is very wrong. It simple needs to be enforced.

[Sadler]

The strong have always ruled over the weak, deal with it. Basic human nature.

Amen.

But there is always an up and coming dog to bite your ass.

[Byrd]

What right do you have to determine whether the difference you make is good or bad? You speak of crusades, not peacekeeping. In the end, you are merely enforcing your values on peoples and lands you have no right to control. So says you that your values are better, and even though I agree on that, it still fails to entitle you to such an enforcement.

Regardless of political differences, there are certain universal wrongs that everyone can agree on (#1: murder/genocide). If we are the only country that can stop someone from killing a million people, should we "mind our own business?" Some people will die in the short term, but in the long term, isn't 10,000 deaths better than 1,000,000 or more? Using Iraq as an example, do you think more or less Iraqi citizens would have died since we invaded Iraq versus if we had left the Hussein regime in power?

I'll agree with you that imposed democracy is quite the oxymoronical metaphor, but it's better than what was the tyrannical despotism that was there before. If there is an easier way to get a mass murderer out of position to do what he was doing, I'm all for it.

I'm all for minding our own business. There are just some things that become humanity's business when they occur. I think I (and many other Americans) wish there were someone else out there to be the policeman, but there isn't.

[Septimus]

For christs sake, Europe fucking carved the entire continent of Africa into its many states at the Berlin Conference, without the influence of Africa.

Europe and the US did the same thing with the Middle East and look at what a disaster that didn't turn into.

[Fhqwghads]

Nukes aren't meant to be used, they're meant to be a deterrence. If North Korea dare to use a nuke it would be over before it started.
...
North Korea wants a nuke because they want to be a superpower or they want more pull in the political world, it's having the opposite effect due to their reputation. It'll probably end up where we just pull every political string we can to piss off North Korea w/o being as bold as declaring war.

But that's the thing, we don't know what North Korea's intentions are. Their ruler is a fucking nutjob who is obviously half off his rocker. He and his government are making threats with nukes. This goes beyond what I believe any country has previously threatened in response to the UN/US, etc. This is what I am so concerned about. Il's notion of his own well-being is in question when he casually tosses nuclear weapons around as a very real response to what's happening. If he doesn't care whether or not he or his family/countrymen die, then his pushing of the button goes far beyond deterrence. It could be a very concrete outcome of this crisis.

[Ishido]

What right do you have to determine whether the difference you make is good or bad? You speak of crusades, not peacekeeping. In the end, you are merely enforcing your values on peoples and lands you have no right to control. So says you that your values are better, and even though I agree on that, it still fails to entitle you to such an enforcement.

Regardless of political differences, there are certain universal wrongs that everyone can agree on (#1: murder/genocide). If we are the only country that can stop someone from killing a million people, should we "mind our own business?" Some people will die in the short term, but in the long term, isn't 10,000 deaths better than 1,000,000 or more? Using Iraq as an example, do you think more or less Iraqi citizens would have died since we invaded Iraq versus if we had left the Hussein regime in power?

I'll agree with you that imposed democracy is quite the oxymoronical metaphor, but it's better than what was the tyrannical despotism that was there before. If there is an easier way to get a mass murderer out of position to do what he was doing, I'm all for it.

I'm all for minding our own business. There are just some things that become humanity's business when they occur. I think I (and many other Americans) wish there were someone else out there to be the policeman, but there isn't.

This is very true, and in many ways North Korea is looking a lot worse than Iraq did when we invaded it. However it seems like since everything is not settles in Iraq, it is not seen as practical to take any action against NK as the costs would build up very quickly. People already point out how much we've spent in Iraq and quickly call it a waste, one can only wonder what reaction the general public would have to action in NK (moreso if we were still in Iraq at the same time).

[Xavier]

For christs sake, Europe fucking carved the entire continent of Africa into its many states at the Berlin Conference, without the influence of Africa.

Europe and the US did the same thing with the Middle East and look at what a disaster that didn't turn into.

I didn't say it was a good thing, just the way the world works. Its easy to spew pacifism to everyone, but its just not how the world works.

You can be high and mighty at the point where we're all united under a single banner thanks to the alien invasion.

[aurik]

The strong have always ruled over the weak, deal with it. Basic human nature. Do you think the world got to where it is today by respecting what others thought?

For christs sake, Europe fucking carved the entire continent of Africa into its many states at the Berlin Conference, without the influence of Africa.

At least you're being honest; America has appointed itself World Police because it is strong, and others are weak. It was quite different during the cold war -- we didn't (overtly) go fucking up the Russian because they were strong too. I'm glad we have (mostly) benevolent overlords, but on the whole they're inconsistent, self-absorbed, and stupid.

Herein lies the irony, though: Kim Jong has gotten where he is by keeping his people weaker than him, which is both your reason for supplanting him and your justification for interfering.

[archibaldcrane]

Using Iraq as an example, do you think more or less Iraqi citizens would have died since we invaded Iraq versus if we had left the Hussein regime in power?

Fewer, many many fewer. Iraq worked (relatively) because Saddam controlled the country via fear. Fear is what prevented low-scale civil war. However, his oppression of the majority of the population built the muderous sectarian violence that we're witnessing right now, now that it's possible. It just couldn't be done when he was in power, because he was stronger and had more control than the US forces do.