Could SE of had their cake an ate it?

[Sadler]

Someone worked out that SE gains X amount of money from all those accounts, well IGE has to pay for all of those... and so must be making ATLEAST at much to cover the cost of all the accounts, and a worthwhile amount of profit on top. It's clearly very lucrative. SE could of had all that money if they had realised how much it would be.

Why ruin a sure thing as it stands?

$76,752 a month sounds like quiet a"Sure" thing to me.

[epigram]

Or, se could flag O. kote and a few more items rare/ex. Remove cock block on gods by putting them on a timer. Remove cock block on ground hnm by putting them on a timer, and moving all abjurations from ground to ks99.

Eventually RMT can't monopolize anything and they just undercut at AH etc... This is how RMT is controlled in WoW and it works pretty well except for some items, and RMT farming crap that you need to kill for a quest. But at least it doesn't stop an entire guild from raiding, and there are no fucktarded DAs, SVs, and BDs.

[Lokim]

There are lots of reasons for MMO developers to sell gil and items themselves (as opposed to allowing third-parties like IGE to do it). Most of them are pretty pragmatic, and a few of them would probably improve the overall game experience. Consider:

• More money - as much as SE makes on RMT subscription fees, they would make orders of magnitude more selling the currency themselves. If that wasn't true, companies like IGE wouldn't be making money in the first place!
  More control - both rampant inflation (as we saw last Christmas) and rampant deflation (as we are seeing now) are terrible for an economy. If SE is the source of currency they can control how much is sold over a given period of time, allowing them to dynamically adjust the amount of money going into a server's economy.
  Customer service - believe it or not, MMO companies like SE get customer service calls when third-part RMT sites screw customers! This is also true of piracy in non-MMO games, and the cost of these support calls adds up (in addition to tying up lines for actual problems that could be addressed).

The biggest reason, though, would be that SE selling currency removes the farmers. Remember, SE controls the game, they can do whatever they like and are certainly capable of simply creating the currency they sell.

Most players are offended on a moral level by gil-buying...it reeks of laziness and cheating. However, the actual direct impact of that on us is negligible; what we hate is the farmers. It's not RMT, per se, that destroys our game, it's the accounts that monopolize NMs and flood crafting markets to the point where normal people can't make any money.

[layoneil]

Inflation caused by too much currency in the system, can easily be combated by... taking money out of the system! O: (Who'd of guessed.)

this is what you're saying
- add up all the gil on the server and say it adds up to 100 Billion.
- a couple of people dials up SE and orders 100M Gil total.
- the next day, the server has 100.1B gil total.

now to prevent inflation SE needs to take out 100M gil. from where and from who do they take out the 100M? if you can't answer this properly, you can't properly combat inflation.

it's a lot easier for SE to sell items or sell a leveling service. call them up and they'll just change your level, just change your inventory.

but here's the kicker, i wouldn't sign up to play a game like that and i believe a lot of people wouldn't as well.

the only way i can see it working is if they did it similarly to (i think) EQII. have servers where they do offer this service and have servers where they don't.

but on the non-RMT servers, you'd still have to deal with 3rd PT RMTers.

[Dustybrown]

Inflation caused by too much currency in the system, can easily be combated by... taking money out of the system! O: (Who'd of guessed.)

First off, I'd like to know how this money would be taken out of the system. At the moment SE has a number of ways, via NPCs, that in effect takes money out of the system. Buying items or chocobos and the like. Now I'm no economist, but it seems to me that for them to take even more money out of the system via this method they'd have to jack NPC prices. So we'd all be going to Mea and paying 20k for a chocobo. This wouldn't work very well for people who make gil legitimately, so it would be biased towards the people who buy gil from SE. Not very fair, or much incentive, for the legitimate players in the game.

Also on this point, if it was really so easy to just "take" money out of the system, SE would probably have done it to curb xmas inflation. But how do you take gil out of the system effectively? When they banned the mules hording the gilseller's gil stores, they got some LS banks - fucking over legit players. So do they just come along and shave 1m gil off everyone's account? No - because then the people buying the gil wouldn't buy it (what's the point if SE are gonna prune you 1m gil every so often?) and Legit players would be screwed cos it takes them however long to make that money.

You can't just come along and easily "take" money of the system of an MMO.

I'm not disputing the fact that a buying an account / item / w/e sucks, and isn't as good as getting it yourself. SE really doesn't care about this.

Again, I think this is wrong. SE have clearly said time and time again that Abj are difficult to obtain because they don't want everyone running around with this gear on. They want relic weapons as difficult as possible to obtain so they remain rare. SE have also shown that leveling up is a huge part of the game. Clearly, SE care about making this game fucking difficult to do most things. It preserves longevity. If SE didn't feel this way, FFXI would be like WoW where a couple of hours could net you 100s of gold. Skilling up a craft wouldn't go in .1's. And xp tnl wouldn't be in the 10,000s.

SE could of had all that money if they had realised how much it would be.

I really don't think that you are giving SE enough credit if you honestly believe this idea never crossed their minds. What I think is more likely, is they weighed the pros and cons and found this wasn't exactly what they wanted to do. Look at EQ2, they went down this path. Last I heard it wasn't working out too well for them. Also, from SE's POV, they want to look into what keeps people playing the game. If you're not bothering to lvl a job to 75 in the first place, why would you go back and level another? You certainly won't put the time into leveling a craft if you can't put the time in to making money. So what are you going to do? Get frustrated with Dynamis and Limbus because you want Homam and AF2 and you need some patience to do it? Or play for 3 months and then switch to WoW? I'm really quite convinced that SE intended FFXI for longevity by making things so difficult to come by. Offering accounts at 75 pre-leveled isn't going to be bringing in any type of long-term income because people who want those characters will just get frustrated and quit.

Now, honestly, I can see why SE selling gil would probably take off to some extent. Some people who play this game just want to play it and don't have the time to make the gil. I imagine that is the reason why, some people at least, turn to RMTing. Gil isn't the easiest thing to make. If that was me, I would be asking myself why I'm even playing when I don't have time to make money. I think people would buy gil from SE if they offered it. But I'm going to be positive in outlook here and say that I believe one of the main reasons that SE don't offer this is because they make gil so hard to come by in the first place. If they really wanted it so easy to obtain (ie by buying it) they would have made it easier to make in general. They wouldn't win any friends (read: long term paying customers) pissing off people by biasing the game towards those which choose to pay so they can "play at the next level" and take the easy way out.

[spooky]

...

How to take money out of the system? Ummm... sell EVERYTHING! Abjs, Relic, Merits, etc, etc, all from NPCs. That took me all of 5 seoncds to think up, but I'm sure paid profesionals at SE could do much better, I don't really think it would be an issue. Try and move on past this for the sake of the discussion.

[Aodh]

There are lots of reasons for MMO developers to sell gil and items themselves (as opposed to allowing third-parties like IGE to do it). Most of them are pretty pragmatic, and a few of them would probably improve the overall game experience. Consider:

• More money
  More control
  Customer service

The biggest reason, though, would be that SE selling currency removes the farmers. Remember, SE controls the game, they can do whatever they like and are certainly capable of simply creating the currency they sell.

First, they don't "Allow" them to do it, there is just a lot of regulations and laws (domestic and international) which need to be satisfied before they can do anything. No law would allow anyone to shut down another company because they don't like them or want's them to stop. They have to prove they're breaking a law, which generally they aren't. What the companies are doing is violating the terms of service, which would get them banned if they actually played and not some chinese worker who is bound to different international laws.

More money is arguable. While they would make money off of selling gil, the players who choose not to sell gil would not have the in-game-finances to be able to keep up with the subsiquent inflation. Most people have heard of Supply and Demand as a coin-phrase without understanding the economic implications.

With the in-flux of created money, players buy more items/gear/materials and are capable of spending more money. If prices were to remain constant, then the supply would be drained and there wouldn't be anything for sale. So what happens is that prices go up to preserve the increased demand and constant supply. In other words if you buy gil you're raising prices on yourself, and if you don't buy gil you won't be able to afford anything. Examples include the price increase last christmas, and the large decline in prices after 3 straight months of bannings (the monthly ones of xxx accounts).

As for the customer service, it's not a customer service to take away the people who are doing things they're not supposed to be doing. Would it be 'Customer Service' to have a place where you could go, turn over all your money and valuables just so you can't get mugged? Or try going to the police and explain how the crack dealer ripped you off and see how well that goes. This would provide SE with the only legal basis for sueing companies like IGE for misrepresentation and loss of business.

And it wouldn't in any way remove the farmers, it would make more of them, because they would have to farm much more to offer gil at lower prices than what SE was offering. There are direct economical implications of RMT in a virtual economy which does affect everyone in the game. Don't kid yourself if you're trying to seperate farmers from sellers, they are two parts to the same machine.

[layoneil]

...

How to take money out of the system? Ummm... sell EVERYTHING! Abjs, Relic, Merits, etc, etc, all from NPCs. That took me all of 5 seoncds to think up, but I'm sure paid profesionals at SE could do much better, I don't really think it would be an issue. Try and move on past this for the sake of the discussion.

we are discussing. we are giving you reasons why SE can't do it.

if everything is sold from NPCs, what is left in the game to be played?

you just solved the DA and Ulli problems by making everyone quit the game.

[spooky]

Hi, maybe you missed the other post I just wrote. While we could debade if inflation would be an issue or not; let's try to move past this...

[layoneil]

Hi, maybe you missed the other post I just wrote. While we could debade if inflation would be an issue or not; let's try to move past this...

Hi, we're answering your question. everything SE sells for real money would mean 1 less thing that's not worthwhile to be "played" by the players.

if they increasingly decrease the number of things a player has to play for, their subscription fees will drop dramatically after people exhaust all the playable content.

the amount of money they make from RMT will not make up for the lost subscription fees. and a lot of smart people wouldn't have started the game in the first place.

would you join a fantasy sports league where you can buy your draft order with RL cash?

[Dustybrown]

we are discussing. we are giving you reasons why SE can't do it.

if everything is sold from NPCs, what is left in the game to be played?

you just solved the DA and Ulli problems by making everyone quit the game.

QFT, exactly the point I was going to make.

If SE sells everything from NPCs and you can buy gil off SE to pay for your [insert anything in the game here] then why would anyone play? We'd either spend every hour we play making gil, or buy it from SE and then quit. No one would do Limbus, Dynamis, Gods, Wyrms, Assault or anything. If things were sold from NPCs why would people even bother crafting? You can buy your Genie Wesket from a NPC anyway. At best a few people would still XP when not making gil.

The idea that SE would sell gil for real money and then give the option of players buying everything from an NPC is possibly the most stupid thing I've ever heard on these boards, and that's saying a lot.

[Rilu]

lol... I just scared myself then...

how many players do they have paying for this game?

Lets go in kinda low....

580,000 Players paying $15.99 a month

= $9,274,000.00 a month....

111 million a year..... WTF? lol

Not bad for there first Online venture I would say....

Ninja Edit : I am willing to bet there monthly income in around 16mil.

Who pays 15.99 a month? I only pay 12.99 - - am I missing something?

[Aodh]

Who pays 15.99 a month? I only pay 12.99 - - am I missing something?

12.99 USD, whenever I see any other amount I just assume a non-US denomination.

[Daahan]

...

How to take money out of the system? Ummm... sell EVERYTHING! Abjs, Relic, Merits, etc, etc, all from NPCs. That took me all of 5 seoncds to think up, but I'm sure paid profesionals at SE could do much better, I don't really think it would be an issue. Try and move on past this for the sake of the discussion.

So if you sell everything, what is there left to do?

Even if those things were sold, so many people would probably just buy the gil to get the things they want.

The thing you're failing to realize is how much RMT actually encompasses FFXI, and other MMORPGs for that matter. You have thousands of frequent RMTers, many of whom devote a large part of their income to buying gil for this game.

You also have people who buy gil sparingly, or in a one time transaction.

Simply handing over the business of RMT to someone else is not going to change much because of the fact that so many people RMT and they RMT large amounts.

[Sadler]

lol... I just scared myself then...

how many players do they have paying for this game?

Lets go in kinda low....

580,000 Players paying $15.99 a month

= $9,274,000.00 a month....

111 million a year..... WTF? lol

Not bad for there first Online venture I would say....

Ninja Edit : I am willing to bet there monthly income in around 16mil.

Who pays 15.99 a month? I only pay 12.99 - - am I missing something?

UK Costs £11.99 which is around $22 Dollars.... but I guess Americans are the only ones that play this game...

I basically made an Average call between Yen, Dollars, Pounds & Euro's.

[jaryk]

I think rather than having SE sell money and character to people, they could continue to make drops rare/ex on certain NM or make the items that they drop more readily available via NPC's etc. That seems like a more logical idea.

For those who are against character selling, I will say that I'm currently looking to purchase a character and that depending on the circumstances it's not necessarily a terrible thing. In my case, my character was lent to a friend and they ended up running away with the character. Rather than whining about it or creating drama, I am simply choosing to find someone who has given up the game and is willing to sell me a character. There are people out there who want to purchase fully leveled characters not because they're simply lazy or have money to waste, but they do not want or have the time to go back and level a new character.

[loial]

Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) introduced "RMT servers" for EQ2. Of course, it wasn't called RMT server, but they were servers where players could legitimately buy/sell/trade items, currency, accounts through the "security" of SOE itself.

Players could simply put an item up for sale through some NPC for cash (IIRC) and another player could purchase it. The buyer's account was debited the amount and the seller's account was credited.

Of course, true RMT (the one's that we believe live in China or whatever and play 24/7) could continue selling via IGE for lower rates. But, surprisingly, this ran the true RMT out of business. Players preferred to buy/sell/trade through the secure/legit way provided by SOE rather than save a couple bucks and go through IGE/others and possibly be ripped off or banned.

SOE actually did very well with banning those involved with RMT through online sales like IGE. And they'd ban buyer and seller. And there was no warning. One and your done.

[zoobernut]

we are discussing. we are giving you reasons why SE can't do it.

if everything is sold from NPCs, what is left in the game to be played?

you just solved the DA and Ulli problems by making everyone quit the game.

QFT, exactly the point I was going to make.

If SE sells everything from NPCs and you can buy gil off SE to pay for your [insert anything in the game here] then why would anyone play? We'd either spend every hour we play making gil, or buy it from SE and then quit. No one would do Limbus, Dynamis, Gods, Wyrms, Assault or anything. If things were sold from NPCs why would people even bother crafting? You can buy your Genie Wesket from a NPC anyway. At best a few people would still XP when not making gil.

The idea that SE would sell gil for real money and then give the option of players buying everything from an NPC is possibly the most stupid thing I've ever heard on these boards, and that's saying a lot.

because god forbid SE actually gets some real game developers to come up with some good ideas to make a fun battle or adventure and not just a gigantic loot whoring game where people work hard to get gil to get gear to do other battles only to get better gear. its so circular. if SE just put a little more effort into developing their game i am sure they could come up with some things that were fun that did not involve gil. if SE selling gil and items would break the game then they have not put enough effort into the other aspects of the game.

[layoneil]

because god forbid SE actually gets some real game developers to come up with some good ideas to make a fun battle or adventure and not just a gigantic loot whoring game where people work hard to get gil to get gear to do other battles only to get better gear. its so circular. if SE just put a little more effort into developing their game i am sure they could come up with some things that were fun that did not involve gil. if SE selling gil and items would break the game then they have not put enough effort into the other aspects of the game.

dude, this is an MMO. no successful game has gotten away from this model yet.

[Kyreth]

Of course, those servers also became RMT-required....because RMT creates another layer of game economy, one where those who spend extra money prosper and those that don't, fall behind and fail without it. Game content gets burned through at higher speeds. That's only good for bad games- because they realize people leave before they'll ever get there otherwise.

As it stands, the only way I could tolerate S-E going that direction is building a new game from the ground up with this in mind. Anything else is a fatal and fundamental change to FFXI.

Now, having special one-shots available? Heck yes. Pay a few bucks, trade in a token + item to an NPC for a new look on an old item? Absolutely hell yes. But paying extra $$$ for in-game advantages? Screw that, it's cannibalizing your own game for a quick buck when you'll make more in the long run keeping a healthy gamestate and rake in the monthly fees.

But charge me $5 for a swank new set of alternate AF graphics (linked to a unique item code so all old AF doesn't match it ala .dat swapping) that'll have no difference in game-stat effects? Go for it, it doesn't change the game one bit. That's eyecandy, some people will pay for it, and it does no harm. Even minor "handy" items like the nation aketons are fine. City of Heroes/Villians does this, and people like it.