So how do you deal with...

[Alastaire]

Besides endgame, I also enjoy levelling in a static, occasionally meriting, doing assaults, and just talking to my friends in this game.

And long walks on the beach.

[Beckwin]

Yeah baby. a/s/l?

[Krandor]

Taking into account the daily activities of most HNM LSs, I think it's pretty safe to say that 2/3s of a LSs activities are gonna be taken up Dynamis and Kings (this is assuming a LS that runs Dynamis in house anyways). This has more to do with how long said activities take then anything though really, since in both instances you're looking at 3 hours per Dynamis run or King camp.

I know at least my entire day ingame so far has consisted of Fafhogg Camp straight to Dynamis-Beau (Horn Attestation 4tw, Millenium Horn coming to Asura in 1 week <.< )

[Beckwin]

I don't run Dynamis in-house. Most of my LS is in the same dynamis ls and composes the majority of that LS.

I think 2/3rds of your time being at a camp or in dynamis is a bit of an overestimation. You don't do a full LS turtle or behemoth camp until day 4 until king pops. Dynamis is twice a week. Keep in mind that ground camps can be much less than 3hrs as well.

[chiz]

Chiz: I don't think cheating is right, I just think the reality is that it's necessary to make the zilart ground situation worthwhile in many cases.

And once again, that's your reality because you chose to make it a reality. But isn't that the issue at hand? One cocksucker thinking his time is more valuable than the next guy down the line decides he's gonna download and use a bot so he can afk and jerk off during intervals and eliminate the luck factor of winning pull amirite? Guess what? You're that guy, and you've just increased your post count from 2 to 40 trying to justify it.

Just because a few guys in your LS bot doesn't mean you're gonna dominate claims. You've agreed to that yourself- it doesn't take a bot to get a claim.

Yep, and I've never said we dominated claims. The only time you could say we dominated claims is when we've been uncontested. I'm well aware it doesn't take a bot to claim, I've actually won claims and I've never felt the need to bot.

But spoilers: I talk to a few people that play on Fairy; I'm not just going on what Macharazeel said. So if you want to keep looking like a hypocrite, I guess that's your business. Seriously, someone who spams GM calls yet can be 100% sure no one in his own shell bots even though other people strongly believe they do.....

Mmmhmmm, you can't even "keep the names of LS on Fairy straight", yet suddenly you've got myriad of sources keeping you well-informed, I'm sure. Like I said, I can't be certain everyone in my LS doesn't bot, but until someone in my shell admits to botting pulls or gets banned for botting, that's my reality.

There's nothing hypocritical about it, I've given concrete examples and there's no one on Fairy that would dispute my accounts of events (provided they were actually there). I'm not going to lie, if there's certain shells at a camp I completely expect to lose pull to a bot, but that doesn't mean we're not going to show up. Depending on the circumstances there's a good chance they'll just end up wiping or flailing themselves at best, at worst we get a fun show watching them struggle killing the thing.

[aurik]

Aurik:

1) I said camping is boring, i.e. the half hour between windows. It's a design flaw imo (one of many in this game, but I still find the game fun enough to overlook them).

2) However, bullshitting on vent, watching youtube, doing whatever else is fun.

3) The fights themselves are fun.

1) You're losing at FFXI when you're playing the game but not enjoying your time. It's about the only way to lose this game.

2) Obviously not fun enough that you camp without bots. If you were really enjoying your time BSing on vent then you wouldn't NEED to cheat to make your time worthwhile, because your time spent would be worthwhile in its own right, claim or not.

3) You can fight fafhogg any day of the week, it's called limbus northwest. You also get aspid steelfleece and kb in the same package, it's quite fun for the low price of only 50,000 gil. You don't have to deal with dicks botting and mpking, you don't have to deal with 6am windows, the only difference is that you don't get pixels that occasionally swing 2-3 times.

[Beckwin]

Chiz: you're hypocritical for GMing people for botting when you can't even be certain people in your own linkshell aren't doing it. Spoilers: they are.

I'm not the guy who started botting, I'm the guy who gave the green light on it because watching other shells racking up claim with it got old. It isn't pretty, but it's reality.

Aurik:

1) I don't see how I'm losing when I can do other things instead of do things I don't enjoy. Dynamis just means I'm stuck for three hours straight not enjoying it all that much.

2) Can't exactly do homework while in Dynamis, but can easily do it inbetween ground windows. Still gotta pop back in at window, but I can do more enjoyable/productive things inbetween, or just dick around on LS chat.

3) You mean, I can do that Limbus twice a week, which isn't very conducive to completing popsets. Also those fights are even weaker versions of the ground Kings. They also don't drop anything worth doing the zone twice a week constantly. Also, I don't deal with 6 AM windows much anyway. My shell isn't 24/7 capable.


Just to fucking blow your minds, I'm going to propose this:

If your server has a shell or shells with enough bots that they consistenly outclaim their compareable non-botting competition, their competition is only helping them by not botting.

[chiz]

Chiz: you're hypocritical for GMing people for botting when you can't even be certain people in your own linkshell aren't doing it. Spoilers: they are.

Right, because I haven't encouraged others in tells and in public to report anyone they suspect in my shell of botting. Honestly, it saves me the trouble of having to potentially police my own members and at the same time, would prove me to be wrong. Trust me, there's tons of people on Fairy who would fucking love that. Yet.....spoiler: we haven't had a single person banned, for anything.

On the other hand, I've gone as far as calling a GM in advance in situations where we expected someone to blatantly bot a pull. D8 KB on a force pop a few months ago, there was a GM was watching that pull. You think I would call a GM and petition them to watch pull or explicitly tell them what to look for if I thought we had people botting? Spoiler: no.

Like I said earlier, we've had moderate success in having people banned for botting. Its not nearly as much as we would like, but hey, if it makes even 1 botting piece of shit think twice about putting their shiny blue armor or sword on the chopping block, it was worth it.

I'm not the guy who started botting, I'm the guy who gave the green light on it because watching other shells racking up claim with it got old. It isn't pretty, but it's reality.

Same difference, you're still trash.

Just to fucking blow your minds, I'm going to propose this:

If your server has a shell or shells with enough bots that they consistenly outclaim their compareable non-botting competition, their competition is only helping them by not botting.

Grats, I heard Baseball is looking for a new commissioner. Maybe Enron could use your ingenius mind in their accounting department. Keep looking for ways to justify cheating, it'll serve you well down the road.

[Beckwin]

On the other hand, I've gone as far as calling a GM in advance in situations where we expected someone to blatantly bot a pull. D8 KB on a force pop a few months ago, there was a GM was watching that pull. You think I would call a GM and petition them to watch pull or explicitly tell them what to look for if I thought we had people botting?

First: way to be a d-bag because you didn't think you'd get claim. Second: no shit your shell isn't going to bot that day when you let everyone know you're pre-calling a GM. Third: If you're smart about it, a GM isn't gonna be able to do much even if they see you claim via botting.

Grats, I heard Baseball is looking for a new commissioner. Maybe Enron could use your ingenius mind in their accounting department. Keep looking for ways to justify cheating, it'll serve you well down the road.

Grats, you're a fucking moron.

1- If I was in some sort of position where I could direct the activities of endgame shells or have influence on the design of the game, I wouldn't just say "ok everyone who plays, download a bot."

2- If you aren't botting and your competition is, you're giving them exactly what they want: more pulls. Just think about it. You can't even argue against it: you admit that botting results in more pulls; you agree that getting more pulls is why people do it; no one expects claims when they can't camp, so the spiel about uncontested HNMs is irrelevant.

3- Keep calling me trash, that's fine. Might want to start addressing your ls members as trash too.

[aurik]

1) I don't see how I'm losing when I can do other things instead of do things I don't enjoy. Dynamis just means I'm stuck for three hours straight not enjoying it all that much.

Did I say you had to do dynamis? No. You're losing the game when you're logging in and being miserable; you're proving to us how much of a loser you are when you log in and run a bot because you're so miserable.

2) Can't exactly do homework while in Dynamis, but can easily do it inbetween ground windows. Still gotta pop back in at window, but I can do more enjoyable/productive things inbetween, or just dick around on LS chat.

Good for you, don't do dynamis if you don't like to do it. You're just proving how much this game is controlling your life when you tell us how boring camping kings is, yet you continue to do it. "This game is awesome, I can do my homework while not playing it!"

3) You mean, I can do that Limbus twice a week, which isn't very conducive to completing popsets. Also those fights are even weaker versions of the ground Kings. They also don't drop anything worth doing the zone twice a week constantly. Also, I don't deal with 6 AM windows much anyway. My shell isn't 24/7 capable.

"Can't have fun, gotta complete pop sets!" Why don't you just quit since this game is just work for you?

[chiz]

First: way to be a d-bag because you didn't think you'd get claim.

Ya because watching 3 days in a row of some assbag whm flying to Behemoth and claiming with their staff is fun lol.

Second: no shit your shell isn't going to bot that day when you let everyone know you're pre-calling a GM. Third: If you're smart about it, a GM isn't gonna be able to do much even if they see you claim via botting.

Nope, I never tell anyone in the LS if I called a GM, funny thing is that some of our more "famous" GM calls weren't even made by me. So either everyone in my shell expects me to call a GM and decides to not bot, or they're actually putting the GM call in themselves lol.

Grats, you're a fucking moron.

Really, I coulda swore you just said if you don't bring yourself down to the same level as your cheating competition, you're in some way helping them?

1- If I was in some sort of position where I could direct the activities of endgame shells or have influence on the design of the game, I wouldn't just say "ok everyone who plays, download a bot."

Funny, aren't you the guy that gives the green light? lol.

2- If you aren't botting and your competition is, you're giving them exactly what they want: more pulls. Just think about it. You can't even argue against it: you admit that botting results in more pulls; you agree that getting more pulls is why people do it; no one expects claims when they can't camp, so the spiel about uncontested HNMs is irrelevant.

And that affects me how? Sure they get their pulls and we get our peace of mind knowing we didn't have to fucking cheat to accomplish the same thing. The best part about it is that sometimes, we get their pulls too because their shells are comprised of incompetent degenerates so they find some way to fall on their face.

3- Keep calling me trash, that's fine. Might want to start addressing your ls members as trash too.

The proof is the pudding, and believe me, there is/was a few I do consider trash, although they were never at camps and I consider them to be scum for other reasons. Chances are I've already kicked em though, heh.

[Ryko]

It's one in the fucking morning and nothing is set to pop dont you people have anything else to do like sleep or something?

[aurik]

I'm sure theres a few pop sets around that need completing.

[Ryko]

You say that as if most limbus groups that dont break 4 seconds after everyone gets their earrings doesn't set out to complete pop sets. For some people the "fun" is the progress, you're choosing to determine your standard of fun and then holding it over other people. What is "fun" is an entirely subjective concept. My fun is exping, yet I know countless people who cringe at the concept.

[aurik]

You say that as if most limbus groups that dont break 4 seconds after everyone gets their earrings doesn't set out to complete pop sets. For some people the "fun" is the progress, you're choosing to determine your standard of fun and then holding it over other people. What is "fun" is an entirely subjective concept. My fun is exping, yet I know countless people who cringe at the concept.

I'm not enforcing my definition of fun on anyone, I'm laughing at people who admit that what they're doing is stupidly boring yet they continue to do it.

[chiz]

Slept a few hours earlier, so not really tired. Plus I need to unwind after swinging my shiny blue sword around for a few hours. Nothing better to do but watch some TV shows I missed because of Dynamis/whatever and browse some forums I guess. :D

[Beckwin]

1) Sometimes you do things you don't particularly enjoy the most to help your friends. Getting a Surcoat down the line is also incentive.

2) Ground camps are more convenient to my life than dynamis because as long as I'm not in class, I can participate in a ground camp if I wish, while still being able to do other things. A lot of people gripe about the 3 hrs of nothing at a ground camp; I try to make something out of it.

3) Proto-Omega is a lot more fun than watered down ground kings that I can get a shot of the real things of every 3+ days. Also note that Proto-Omega and ground kings drop nice items. Sorry, items do matter, especially in a large group where you want to try and help as many people and yourself get the items they want. There is most definitely a work/reward dynamic in this game, so you're full of shit if you think that unless every moment logged in makes you giddy as a schoolgirl, you need to quit. Take that shit to zam.

You run that manaburn dynamis shell, correct? Oh, and you have a relic. Oh, and you'd rather spam HNM apollyon instead of fighting the real thing and helping people get abjs. You're railing on me for stepping onto the same playing field as the competition, but you only seem to give a shit about the individual and whats fun for the individual. It's no wonder you don't do ground.

See, now you can respond with the "wah wah I can't get items, what plight you went through, cry me a river." But what you aren't going to realize is that there are indeed big problems with how SE runs Zilart ground and how they are truly able to enforce their stance on 3PP. The initial botting was player response to a poorly designed way of distributing the best loot in the game to a growing endgame population. As botting escalated, the player response was the same- more botting, as its the only way to "get yours" on the same field as the rest of your competition.

I'm not saying botting is "right." I'm not advocating initiating it in a non-botting environment. I'm only commenting that in some situations, its become a near necessity if you want to compete. And I'm arguing that there is no reason to keep bitching about it, as it's utterly futile, until SE makes some drastic changes in their policing and game design.

[Ryko]

Camping is boring, fighting the mob after the claim and possibly getting something good out of it is not. Since I enjoy the fight moreso than I do the concept of phat lewts, that's why I sign up for my LS's ouryu runs, don't shudder when someone mentions jormungand and have little qualms with helping a lot of people for various fights if I know my shell has no interest in the mob. Dynamis is a metric asston of boring (well it was until I got to do more in it, coordinating pull, taking out mobs on my own, popping attestation mobs etc), yet I go without fail. Losing exping is not boring but it's definitely not fucking enjoyable, that's for sure, yet ultima last night was probably the first one where I didnt lose the most in the group because the BLMs and RNGs need to rest while my meditating ass has to zombie the shit down so we dont time out while theyre buying time. FFXI in of itself has lot of "ok this fucking sucks" in it, yet I'm still around. Guess I'm in the same boat huh O_o

Edit: I think I stay because of the shiny blue sword

[Lordwafik]

2) Can't exactly do homework while in Dynamis, but can easily do it inbetween ground windows.

Are you telling us you enjoy doing something in this game by not doing it?

[Ryko]

He's saying that he enjoys having the option of potentially gaining something for his group while still having time to get his RL stuff out of the way so he can spend more time actually doing other stuff when it comes along. I know I drop a lot of time nowadays just studying but leaving the game up should something interesting come along. In this case the windower comparison does apply, you know the best function of it is that it allows you to do something else while you wait for something enjoyable or planned to start up yet it's sure not something the game intended.