So how do you deal with...

[aurik]

The minute you stop enjoying this game, you should find something else fun to do with your leisure time. Any less means you have a problem. Too many people in this game are controlled by the virtual items they chase after. And Ryko, I think you stay for the drama, personally.

"you only seem to give a shit about the individual and whats fun for the individual", way to hit the hammer right on the head, I play this game to have fun. It's too bad you don't, it's probably unhealthy to spend all your leisure time playing a game that doesn't give you enjoyment.

[Plow]

Wow so I had to change computers today and apparently there's some keystroke that just instantly closes firefox which I was not aware of lol.

So yeah I wrote up a big intelligent post but it disappeared, so here's cliff notes.

This is directed at Aurik mostly.

Ok now. I totally agree with you on the botting. I hate it, I hate the people that do it, and I do everything I can not to be involved with it. (The ls I'm now in camps kings, and win some pulls, but we have yet to win a fafnir, so I'm pretty confident there's no foul play here lol)

However, I have to disagree with you about kings.

Kings are a horrible design, SE fucked up HUGELY, and in the end, they're really not much fun at all. If you honestly have fun camping kings, you probably haven't done it much.

But what if you had chosen warrior as your main job instead of MNK?

No KBC to get your most important item.
Kirin drops are halfway decent *alternatives* to the best shit, rather than the best.
No relic worth jack shit.

Do you really think then that you would have said "Ok fuck it, I'll go with man+jugg, N.Body/Osode, etc, and just never be as good as I potentially could be."

I highly, highly doubt it. You, just like the rest of us, would most likely have dedicated yourself to doing shit that wasn't fun, in the name of having more fun in the end. (And I'm sure you've spent your fair share of time there anyway.)

That's the problem.

There is no choice.

If you are a warrior, or a dark knight, or a thief, etc, there is nothing to compare to what you get from spending 3 hours a day not having fun.

[aurik]

Wow so I had to change computers today and apparently there's some keystroke that just instantly closes firefox which I was not aware of lol.

So yeah I wrote up a big intelligent post but it disappeared, so here's cliff notes.

This is directed at Aurik mostly.

Ok now. I totally agree with you on the botting. I hate it, I hate the people that do it, and I do everything I can not to be involved with it. (The ls I'm now in camps kings, and win some pulls, but we have yet to win a fafnir, so I'm pretty confident there's no foul play here lol)

However, I have to disagree with you about kings.

Kings are a horrible design, SE fucked up HUGELY, and in the end, they're really not much fun at all. If you honestly have fun camping kings, you probably haven't done it much.

But what if you had chosen warrior as your main job instead of MNK?

No KBC to get your most important item.
Kirin drops are halfway decent *alternatives* to the best shit, rather than the best.
No relic worth jack shit.

Do you really think then that you would have said "Ok fuck it, I'll go with man+jugg, N.Body/Osode, etc, and just never be as good as I potentially could be."

I highly, highly doubt it. You, just like the rest of us, would most likely have dedicated yourself to doing shit that wasn't fun, in the name of having more fun in the end. (And I'm sure you've spent your fair share of time there anyway.)

That's the problem.

There is no choice.

If you are a warrior, or a dark knight, or a thief, etc, there is nothing to compare to what you get from spending 3 hours a day not having fun.

My reply is short and sweet: if you don't enjoy it, don't do it. You may not be the ubarbestwhitebox warrior around, but fuck that, at least you had fun.

[Ryko]

If the person has nothing in those 3 hours that could be done that they deem fun as an alternative then really they lose nothing. If they can do something that is beneficial and obligatory while time passes in an activity that really is not fun then it leaves more time for them to have fun otherwise when it's over.

[aurik]

If the person has nothing in those 3 hours that could be done that they deem fun as an alternative then really they lose nothing. If they can do something that is beneficial and obligatory while time passes in an activity that really is not fun then it leaves more time for them to have fun otherwise when it's over.

If you have absolutely nothing fun in your life that you can find to fill 3 hours, I honestly feel sorry for you.

[Ryko]

Life isn't always about fun? Not that my work ethic would show that but I didn't really need it to be. If he's going to have to do the homework and study as an obligation anyway then why not do it then.

Think of it in the opposite direction, instead of "hey I can do homework while camping fafnir" it can be "hey I can camp fafnir while doing homework", since the homework would have to be done regardless.

[Beckwin]

Well, I think Plow and I at least agree on something now :/

"you only seem to give a shit about the individual and whats fun for the individual", way to hit the hammer right on the head, I play this game to have fun. It's too bad you don't, it's probably unhealthy to spend all your leisure time playing a game that doesn't give you enjoyment.

You're trying to call me shit when you wouldn't make any sort of sacrifice for people who would help you? Sorry for giving a shit about my friends dude. I guess I shouldn't play this game.

Oh wait, maybe you shouldn't play this game. In an MMO, it's pretty much implied you need others to assist you in accomplishing your goals. But returning the favor doesn't seem to be your thing, so that makes you kind of a shitty dude and/or someone who should play single player games.

[Plow]

My reply is short and sweet: if you don't enjoy it, don't do it. You may not be the ubarbestwhitebox warrior around, but fuck that, at least you had fun.

I forgot MNK have Dodge

Seriously though, maybe I didn't clarify enough that I was asking a question.

Let me rephrase.

Make E.Body require the black belt items, and make black belt drop in E.Body's place.

Completely remove spharai from the game. NINJA EDIT WITH BRILLIANT IDEA: MAKE SPHARAI NIN/PUP ONLY

Make Ridill a KBC30 drop.

Make Destroyers drop in Ridill's place.

Make D. Body drop off Nidhogg too, just for good measure.

Now, how do you go about gearing your mnk? Which items do you choose?

[chiz]

Well, I would agree that Limbus or even KS99 (a better comparison imo) just aren't the same as Ground Kings. Like Ryko and Beckwin said, the reward itself is oftentimes as important as the fight itself.

Dynamis is a blast for me though, no matter what job I'm going on. I can definitely see how its not fun for some people (BLMs, WHMs, and BRDs especially), but we try to allow people to take different jobs so that their experience is at least varied from time to time. Our most dedicated members clearly see the benefits, as they can often acquire rare/useful AF2 for other jobs before they can even use it or faster than some people obtain their first.

Sure, sometimes Dynamis is frustrating as fuck, but the anticipation and possibility of making multiple people happy in a single run that's as long as most King Camps makes it worthwhile. There's been plenty of times where people have questioned my call to go to Dynamis instead of a camp, but I've never had any regrets.

Most recently some idiot who had never even seen a Ridill drop (who recently quit) felt our time would be better spent going to a D1 Faf instead of Xarcabard. Run sucked til we got to Dlord and we ended up dropping a 100, mantle and ring. I don't think there's any question our time was better spent in Dynamis than in DA that day.

Bottomline is that if you don't think something is worth your time, don't do it, and definitely don't sit there and try and justify cheating as the only way of making it worthwhile.

[aurik]

If he's going to have to do the homework and study as an obligation anyway then why not do it then.

Your proposition is that he isn't expending resources by camping in this manner.

To which I reply, if this is true, why bot? No investment is on the line; you have spent nothing so you lose nothing if you lose claim. Then the only reason I can see for botting is that you are so greedy that you want to steal the investment others have put into camping ground when you yourself are putting none in.

[aurik]

My reply is short and sweet: if you don't enjoy it, don't do it. You may not be the ubarbestwhitebox warrior around, but fuck that, at least you had fun.

I forgot MNK have Dodge

Seriously though, maybe I didn't clarify enough that I was asking a question.

Let me rephrase.

Make E.Body require the black belt items, and make black belt drop in E.Body's place.

Completely remove spharai from the game. NINJA EDIT WITH BRILLIANT IDEA: MAKE SPHARAI NIN/PUP ONLY

Make Ridill a KBC30 drop.

Make Destroyers drop in Ridill's place.

Make D. Body drop off Nidhogg too, just for good measure.

Now, how do you go about gearing your mnk? Which items do you choose?

Obviously I'd choose the items that I was willing to put in the effort to get: the items where I enjoyed the pursuit of such items. If destroyers and spharai were inaccessible, I'd use waghs. I don't enjoy fighting RMT in sky, so I don't have byakkos or d.body, both of which would be clear upgrades to my current gear. Do I stress about it? Nope.

Maybe I'd take up warrior, since it would be more fun to gear out in that hypothetical universe.

I mean, it's that simple. Play the game to have fun. That which is attainable while still remaining fun, pursue. That which is not, forget.

[chiz]

On a lighter note, Fairy's first Apocalypse owner is going to be a bearded Hume. D:

Just ran by me and /waved..........

[Tom Chambers]

Plow, I'm fairly sure Aurik is running around without Byakko Haidate, and he may still be rocking a Scorpion Harness- if he's not I'm positive he was for a long, long time.

You might disagree with his fundamentalist 'only do what keeps you laughing at smiling at all costs!' mindset- I do!- but his money is where his mouth is regarding items.

[Plow]

I suppose I can't argue with that one too much after the years of doing everything I can to make my drk better only to have it not even begin to compare to warriors with lesser gear, dedication, and skill, and finally giving in and going war. (And so far it's everything I ever wanted drk to be except for a strong magic damager.)

[aurik]

"you only seem to give a shit about the individual and whats fun for the individual", way to hit the hammer right on the head, I play this game to have fun. It's too bad you don't, it's probably unhealthy to spend all your leisure time playing a game that doesn't give you enjoyment.

You're trying to call me shit when you wouldn't make any sort of sacrifice for people who would help you? Sorry for giving a shit about my friends dude. I guess I shouldn't play this game.

Oh wait, maybe you shouldn't play this game. In an MMO, it's pretty much implied you need others to assist you in accomplishing your goals. But returning the favor doesn't seem to be your thing, so that makes you kind of a shitty dude and/or someone who should play single player games.

Nice straw man argument: because I like to do what I find fun in a game, I don't give a shit about my friends. You could win a world record with that leap of logic.

On the contrary, I tend to make friends with people that enjoy doing fun stuff with me, both things that benefit them and things that benefit me. I don't stay friends with people who demand I endure misery for their sake...this isn't my job, it's my leisure! And I treat my friends the same way: I ask them along to do fun stuff, I don't make them do shit they don't want to do.

But I guess MMOs are not for having fun, they're for enduring misery for other people so that other people will endure misery for you later.

[Beckwin]

Bottomline is that if you don't think something is worth your time, don't do it, and definitely don't sit there and try and justify cheating as the only way of making it worthwhile.

Camping is only worthwhile if you can actually claim the damn thing with a satisfactory frequency. You'd at least like to get a proportional share of pulls in relation to how many shells camp, give or take. When you can only get one or two dragons in a month, it really isn't worth it to most people to camp day in and day out, especially when you know your competition has an advantage over you. But if you can get 5 NQs and an HQ, it's a little more encouraging and worthwhile.

To which I reply, if this is true, why bot? No investment is on the line; you have spent nothing so you lose nothing if you lose claim. Then the only reason I can see for botting is that you are so greedy that you want to steal the investment others have put into camping ground when you yourself are putting none in.

You're under the impression that doing shit inbetween windows and botting are dependent. If you're gonna show up, regardless of whether you bot or not, you want to get a decent share of the pulls. Why bot? In my case, its because of the sheer volume of others botting that prevented a decent share of the pulls. But you can't really use your arguement because you can afk between windows and not bot as well.

[Ryko]

If he's going to have to do the homework and study as an obligation anyway then why not do it then.

Your proposition is that he isn't expending resources by camping in this manner.

To which I reply, if this is true, why bot? No investment is on the line; you have spent nothing so you lose nothing if you lose claim. Then the only reason I can see for botting is that you are so greedy that you want to steal the investment others have put into camping ground when you yourself are putting none in.

Because for some, the bottom line is the loot. Seeing someone gain something is the greatest reward for a lot of people. It's not by any means altruistic but it is a motivation. I mean yeah I enjoy fighting fafhogg but I enjoy fighting it for entirely different reasons than I did when I first started. Back last year I enjoyed it because I got to prove to a lot of people that things could be done when they thought that it couldnt (tanking it on warrior was a fun one, or watching like more and more DD's from various shells run into aery with samurai sub as we started getting more and more claims and started becoming more smooth in killing it. I bet no one can even remember who the first regular endgame DRK/DRG was but I can tell you it was sesshoumaru from fairy and I'm sure he gets a kick out of at least someone acknowledging his proving it could be done well) whereas now I enjoy it because I like to see how far we can push the mob in terms of killspeed or low-manning it.

The people who bot do fuck it over for the ones who don't (that applies to ron's group in the NA alliance too chiz. Even if I gave the benefit of the doubt in someone saying that no one in ED is running anything it'd be ridiculous to say that you havent placed yourself or the others in a position to gain from it potentially. Whether you believe me when I say that I do look back to when it was just our 2 groups in aery as a good time because we didnt have to worry about 20 groups assbagging us with arguses and apps is up to you though), but beckwin's point is that he's not going up against people who don't. Apathy, Ominous, Sadpanda? The first one is a fucking no brainer, the middle I know nothing about and the last one has people who came from beckwin's shell and talk to members of his shell about who's running what regularly. His point is that he's not "fucking over" anyone in his situation. Is it sucky? Absolutely, but for someone who gains the most "fun" out of seeing someone in their shell sporting an M E or A body then it's something they decide to deal with. Like I said, the risk/loss/reward consideration is something each person has to put up with for their self.

On a lighter note, Fairy's first Apocalypse owner is going to be a bearded Hume. D:

With a level 31 WAR sub...

[aurik]

If he's going to have to do the homework and study as an obligation anyway then why not do it then.

Your proposition is that he isn't expending resources by camping in this manner.

To which I reply, if this is true, why bot? No investment is on the line; you have spent nothing so you lose nothing if you lose claim. Then the only reason I can see for botting is that you are so greedy that you want to steal the investment others have put into camping ground when you yourself are putting none in.

Because for some, the bottom line is the loot. Seeing someone gain something is the greatest reward for a lot of people. It's not by any means altruistic but it is a motivation. I mean yeah I enjoy fighting fafhogg but I enjoy fighting it for entirely different reasons than I did when I first started. Back last year I enjoyed it because I got to prove to a lot of people that things could be done when they thought that it couldnt whereas now I enjoy it because I like to see how far we can push the mob in terms of killspeed or low-manning it. The people who bot do fuck it over for the ones who don't, but beckwin's point is that he's not going up against people who don't. Apathy, Ominous, Sadpanda? The first one is a fucking no brainer, the middle I know nothing about and the last one has people who came from beckwin's shell and talk to members of his shell about who's running what regularly. His point is that he's not "fucking over" anyone in his situation.

Beckwin's point is wrong; he is fucking over anyone that shows up without the latest tool. What is correct is that he's not fucking over anyone that isn't already fucked over. Which you may personally be ok with, but a lot of people would still find morally offensive.

If the only way to win is cheat, don't play.

[Ryko]

Beckwin's point is wrong; he is fucking over anyone that shows up without the latest tool. What is correct is that he's not fucking over anyone that isn't already fucked over. Which you may personally be ok with, but a lot of people would still find morally offensive.

Chicken and the egg discussion, a lot of people feel not a bit of remorse costing people (who already found it fair game to flip others the bird just because they could) everything they can. I don't like it any more than you do, but failing to see where theyre coming from (even if you don't necessarily agree with it) will never lead to the mindset that will bring about some sort of beneficial change to the system that currently exists because aside from killing 80% of end-game congestion through bans it's never gonna happen that way.

[aers]

No one's showing up to aery on remora without the latest ffxiapp, that's for sure