So how do you deal with...

[aurik]

Newsflash, it's ok to cheat as long as you don't get caught! This PSA brought to you by Beckwin. Morals be damned, as long as you get what you came for and didn't get banned for it, you win teh game!

[Lordwafik]

I signed back in just to say

PS- that's strike three, r-tard.

R-tard? ROFL. Case closed, Beckwin thankyou for calling someone an "r-tard", because we all know "e" is such a painful stroke to hit on the keyboard.

You bot, and like it/are proud of it, you are now just like Takedown in my eyes who took an AV they didnt pop and were proud of stealing it, then calling another LS "NQ".

Be back later!

[Jer]

Oh noes, I'm out. I'm hardly out of touch, the only thing my shell won't do is kings anymore, because of the bots and drama. You're still saying it's ok because everybody does it. However, I do know how to notice a lost cause and I bid you good night.

[Ryko]

Newsflash, it's ok to cheat as long as you don't get caught! This PSA brought to you by Beckwin. Morals be damned, as long as you get what you came for and didn't get banned for it, you win teh game!

My question is where do you draw the line, malicious botting programs? Movement enhancers? TP reporting programs, distance plugins (it does make certain fights a joke)? With something like wardrobe people can actually flag quests they normally couldn't and/or gain rewards not applicable to them originally. SE will can you for any of them is what beckwin's saying, what standard should we set as players?

R-tard? ROFL. Case closed, Beckwin thankyou for calling someone an "r-tard", because we all know "e" is such a painful stroke to hit on the keyboard.

Pretty sure he was making a southpark reference.

[Krandor]

I don't think Wafik watches South Park downunder <.<

[Beckwin]

This just in: pop-culture references are taboo! Good to know.

I'm hardly out of touch, the only thing my shell won't do is kings anymore...

So basically.... you are out of touch with this situation.

...because of the bots and drama.

So you're agreeing with me, and apparently your server is similar to mine: you either bot or you don't show up at all.

So you can choose to camp HNMs and bot, or you can choose to not do HNMs at all. That statement in itself recognizes a fucked up situation, so I'd hope you can see the motivations for some people to partake. Those HNMs still drop the best gear in the game and I don't think anyone should be expected to not experience that part of the game or obtain those items.

Part of this is SE's design failure with the king system. The other part is the player response. The first guys to bring bots to camp really opened the pandora's box; perhaps they carry more blame for it than others because botting is a domino effect. But at the same time, I can understand the motivation of wanting to eliminate as much of the frustration at getting a shot at fighting the mobs and obtaining their items as possible. Everyone who followed is cheating as well, but its silly to think that the following wasn't a response to the initial botting.

So now you have Joeschmoe moving up into endgame. His LS started as a social and moved up to sky and other beginning endgame stuff, and was finally ready to make a solid attempt at ground. They had done a little camping here and there before, and had decent luck at clean claiming. But things had changed, apparently. Enough hearsay got around that some of it had to be true. An afk claim or two was witnessed. Something was up! It certianly wasn't the spirits of Joe's LS- flat out, they couldn't claim. Menu spamming isn't too hot until the mob's graphic loads on your screen, and tweaking graphic settings only goes so far in a little room with a big crowd. Everything was few and far between. But Joe and his LS still want to have a shot at the kings and their loot. Joe never really liked the idea of botting, but he also found he didn't like that his LS couldn't grow and couldn't get items for his friends. What is Joe to do?

[aurik]

My question is where do you draw the line, malicious botting programs? Movement enhancers? TP reporting programs, distance plugins (it does make certain fights a joke)? With something like wardrobe people can actually flag quests they normally couldn't and/or gain rewards not applicable to them originally. SE will can you for any of them is what beckwin's saying, what standard should we set as players?

If this is a serious question, I'll give it a serious reply.

Personally, I'd draw the line at anything that you can't emulate by paying attention and/or buying more computers.

For example, no amount of hardware/attention will let you jump the ledge into the pit from the back entrance. No amount of hardware/attention will let you run at chocobo speed through shakhrimi. Pos hacking is right out.

Bots are out because they allow you 100% and instant targetting of your desired mob. Even someone paying really good attention generally needs to tab through targets; the potential to mistarget and the delay in targetting are pretty much the challenge in claiming kings without a bot script. Furthermore, bots can make impossible pulls -- for example targetting and pulling a mob before the model is actually loaded, or one that spawns out of your vision cone.

On the other hand, people can (and do) communicate TP reports, MP count, and you can manually time your spells (or spam /recast). On-screen radar is ok, you could easily track that on a 2nd computer pointing at ffxi-atlas. These are all examples of "ok" things to do.

On-screen mob/coffer/point-of-interest radar, on the other hand, is not.

Somewhat less clear is distance plugin, which I contend it depends on what you're using it for--using it to stand in the 0.5 unit separation between a 20' AoE and max-cast distance is abusing it, using it to stand between a 10' AoE and max-ranged-attack distance isn't so bad because you can do that easily without the plugin. Are you using the plugin to tell you if you're at generally the right distance? Or are you using it to tweak your position in ways that wouldn't be possible without an exact numeric readout?

[Beckwin]

Your comments on distance are irrelevant because you can achieve the same results by trial and error. distance just cuts out the trial and error for you.

As far as movement hacking, there's the good ol' unplug your router maneuver. Also, equipment change blink out to execute a moving /ja. Intersting to see how you'd respond to the latter.

Mistargeting kings is semi-irrelevant because you can .dat swap or just plain out kill all the mobs before window. And if you're on a badass machine with the perfect connection in a prime spot with all the right settings, ideally the mob graphic could load almost as soon as your computer receives the data of the mobs existence (which is what bots pickup). Of course thats a bit of a stretch, but then think about the random claim delay timer. You realize that there are really 2 advantages botting gives you: out of cone of view execution of /ja and being able to target a mob before it loads graphically. The latter is clearly something SE needs to address- they've got too many people crammed in a little room for the same item, essentially rewarding players with optimal hardware in a botting free environment. It's a game design and technical design flaw.

[aurik]

Your comments on distance are irrelevant because you can achieve the same results by trial and error. distance just cuts out the trial and error for you.

As far as movement hacking, there's the good ol' unplug your router maneuver. Also, equipment change blink out to execute a moving /ja. Intersting to see how you'd respond to the latter.

Neither of these will enhance your movement speed like fleehack, which is what I think he means. Unplugging your router / switching gear are both legitimate tactics in my mind.

Mistargeting kings is semi-irrelevant because you can .dat swap or just plain out kill all the mobs before window. And if you're on a badass machine with the perfect connection in a prime spot with all the right settings, ideally the mob graphic could load almost as soon as your computer receives the data of the mobs existence (which is what bots pickup). Of course thats a bit of a stretch, but then think about the random claim delay timer. You realize that there are really 2 advantages botting gives you: out of cone of view execution of /ja and being able to target a mob before it loads graphically. The latter is clearly something SE needs to address- they've got too many people crammed in a little room for the same item, essentially rewarding players with optimal hardware in a botting free environment. It's a game design and technical design flaw.

Do you kill all the mobs before window? No, you leave them up, where they get in other people's way. Do not confuse the potential to do something and the actual ability to do it. After all, I could potentially carry a hermes quencher with me everywhere, that doesn't mean I should be allowed 30 seconds of flee speed once per trip away from town.

Dat swapping is out, you can't turn darters into untargettable carbys with hardware or attention.

The 2 main advantages a bot gives you

1) you will target and make a claiming action on a mob no matter where it spawns within your range--even if it spawns in a location where it wouldn't normally be visible to you, either because the model simply isn't drawn or because it spawns out of your vision cone

2) you will never mistarget. my old shell used to pull darters all the fucking time because people are jumpy when they have to manually claim.


And I agree with you that the Zilart Kings are a game design flaw...not so much that because they themselves are flawed, but because there is no gear progression after them. So yea now we get 200+ aery days all the time; I remember back when over 100 was insane.

[miokomioko]

PA: If you're trying to justify botting by saying the game is flawed, you need to do everyone a favor and quit.

[Beckwin]

Sorry, I've seen darters killed before window enough times to disagree with you about that. Takes 5 minutes and makes mistargetting a complete non-issue.

I'm suprised you say the router trick is ok. You could use a software tool to replicate the effect.

[aurik]

Sorry, I've seen darters killed before window enough times to disagree with you about that. Takes 5 minutes and makes mistargetting a complete non-issue.

So? Unless you actually clear the darters, mistargetting is Yet Another Advantage that botting gives you. Personally, if other shells were clearing darters, I used to enjoy killing one precisely 12? (can't remember) minutes before window, so that they popped right during window

I'm suprised you say the router trick is ok. You could use a software tool to replicate the effect.

The router thing is SE's problem to fix. It's taking advantage of a glitch, but you're not hacking (or even touching) their program to do so, thus it's not even forbidden in the ToS.

[Beckwin]

but you're not hacking (or even touching) their program to do so, thus it's not even forbidden in the ToS.

*windower reference go!* And which is more malicious, router tricking or using windower?

See, you can't even make SE's rules the absolute in right and wrong for you. It's sketchy territory. You've created standards to judge right and wrong with no precedence or official backing. You're going completely off of personal preference and whatever environmental conditioning influences you.

I could go on a tear about TParty being completely illegal and giving an unfair advantage over other players. Even by your standards it falls as such- I'm sorry, but in a TP burn, keeping exact track of 4 DD's TP in real time is impossible for a human being- regardless of how much attention you pay to it. Perhaps an mathematically talented autistic who has acute knowledge of game mechanics? That's still pushing it. And I could easily argue that it affects how fast you kill in a merit camp, which effects the number of mobs available to other parties.

But you'd likely defend using TParty, as *insert your quote about human's always wanting to be right etc*.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

But realistically, Tparty is a great convenience that should probably be in the game anyway and definitely makes it more enjoyable. And realistically, it is cheating by the ToS.

[Plow]

yeah because it would totally be impossible for people to hit their tp macro after each swing

[Ryko]

There are more relevant uses for tparty even in a TP burn than when to fire off a WS. Think outside the box.

[aurik]

but you're not hacking (or even touching) their program to do so, thus it's not even forbidden in the ToS.

*windower reference go!* And which is more malicious, router tricking or using windower?

Windower interferes with FFXI's process space. You're not "tricking" your router, you're unplugging it so that you experience 100% packetloss. The fact that you can get an advatage from doing this is SE's problem, not yours.

See, you can't even make SE's rules the absolute in right and wrong for you. It's sketchy territory. You've created standards to judge right and wrong with no precedence or official backing. You're going completely off of personal preference and whatever environmental conditioning influences you.

I could go on a tear about TParty being completely illegal and giving an unfair advantage over other players. Even by your standards it falls as such- I'm sorry, but in a TP burn, keeping exact track of 4 DD's TP in real time is impossible for a human being- regardless of how much attention you pay to it. Perhaps an mathematically talented autistic who has acute knowledge of game mechanics? That's still pushing it. And I could easily argue that it affects how fast you kill in a merit camp, which effects the number of mobs available to other parties.

But you'd likely defend using TParty, as *insert your quote about human's always wanting to be right etc*.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

But realistically, Tparty is a great convenience that should probably be in the game anyway and definitely makes it more enjoyable. And realistically, it is cheating by the ToS.

I'm surprised that it took you this long to play the hypocrisy card, frankly. Ryko set me up for it, and I answered him honestly since I thought maybe he was actually interested in my opinion on the matter. I guess not.

You have wholly unrealistic expectations if you think everyone will ever come to a single standard on what is or isn't "cheating". The fact is that almost everyone who plays this game agrees that there is a "middle ground" between SE's draconian (for legal reasons really) ToS and complete free-for-all.

My interpretation of what's ok and what's not ok is well defined, and I think fairer than SE's. That's about all I need to fairly claim I'm not being hypocritical -- I have justifiable standards that make sense from a mechanics point of view, and my standards don't change to meet my needs at the moment.

I could go on a tear about how before TParty we used to communicate with each other very frequently about TP counts. But it's not worth it, becuase you're not worth my time. I thought Ryko's question was, but it turns out he was just laying a trap; I'll think twice about answering his questions in the future, I guess.

You, on the other hand? You're still just trying to deny others the opportunity to experience this game through the use of third-party tools. You're still that botting fag who spends days doing stuff that makes him and those around him miserable. Your justification for being a cheating douche is that others are cheating douches too, so you aren't fucking anyone that hasn't already been anally plundered by other shells.

Congratulations on sloppy seconds, I guess.

[Ryko]

Actually my question was earnest. I wanted to know where we set the line, that's why I didn't argue with any of your points when you answered it since it was subjective. I don't necessarily agree with the router thing (but it doesn't matter as if SE really wanted to they could shitcan you for something of that nature even if it wasn't necessarily your fault in the first place) but the rest of it makes sense or at least is backed up with logical justification.

[aurik]

Actually my question was earnest. I wanted to know where we set the line, that's why I didn't argue with any of your points when you answered it O_o

Well then how about some feedback?

[Ryko]

I edited so it was more than just a random response. I once had a discussion with an LS mate about how program use and how you'd eventually get thrown in jail for it is a subjective thing in of its own right since someone even making the call is based on if they feel like it or deemed it enough of a fuck up or inconvenience to rat you out (less so now with the SE gestapo running in at night taking people away in our sleep but whatever, not like I've gotten hit by it), it's actually on a semi-public forum on our boards too >_>

If I had to say something as far as my opinion on it goes, it's that it really doesn't matter where someone sets the line because all it takes is for that person to be doing something like running even wardrobe (which does change gameplay and is detectable by the server) and pissing off the wrong person (call poof a cunt, for example) for them to be gone for good. :/ SE just doesn't give a shit, wrong is wrong in their eyes and a lot of GMs are of the mindset that if they're going to be called on they might as well collar somebody. I guess my view got really jaded when I got my 3 day suspension, knowing full well that the assholes I called GMs on for weeks while they were POSing the shit out of aery to try to MPK us didn't get canned for a thing and I got bagged for something that even the people who called a GM on me can say I didn't do. Yet the people who most directly fuck with the gameplay of others just get to act like nothing's happening and will get away scot-free over and over again because theyre incompetent.

[aurik]

SE can shitcan you for them having a hangover and not liking your name. A GM can haul you to mordion and make any claim he wants and ban you for it, regardless of anything. There's no oversight and there's no appeal, that's the nature of dealing with a private business.

I think it's pretty well agreed that their ToS is far too restrictive. That's the nature of an "official" standard. It's legally far easier to set the bar too high and then only punish selectively rather than set it low and be forced to seek justification for every punishment you make. The easiest way to police a "free society" is to make everyone criminals: that way it's never hard to justify punishment.