So how do you deal with...

[Ryko]

Yes but that's a lazy cop-out on their part and does little to fix the cause of it, which I guess is par for their bullshit course.

This wouldn't be a chicken/egg issue if SE made some fucking omlettes as soon as the shit started but most people are too far gone to give a shit anymore and even if they did, it doesn't solve the problem of an oversaturated and ridiculously pigeonholed end-game. 200 people in a zone where at most 2 people stand to gain much of anything on a given day. Taking upwards of 8 months of constant farming to ever see useful AF from dynamis xarcabard, which has been out for over 2 years now (we've had 0 AF or hundred piece runs with as up to 5 thieves at least 4 times, that's not fucking right). Going 0/17 on homam hands and 0/10 on nashira hands. Any non-corrupted player development is complete dumb luck and no rewards are given for doing well or being competent. People camping a mob with pop windows that include full days with upwards of 12 people. RMT's bagging mobs left and right and pretty much gutting the few safe havens most players had, getting further along than a good 90% of players ever will, where's the fucking justice in it all.

[aurik]

lol @ the ninja-ing going on, and yea, I wish SE did something about "real" endgame. I've seen far too many friends get burnt out and quit over it all...(only to come back a month later and go through the same wash cycle all over again)

must be bedtime for me.

[Ryko]

Yeah the more I think about it the more I come up with, sorry

[Beckwin]

So router trick is okay because its not explicitly against SE's rules, even though it accomplishes something that gives you an advantage over other players and is something replicateable by a 3PP.

TParty is ok even though its against SEs rules and it gives an advantage over other players. PS- you're missing the part where Tparty shows alliance MP and monster HP, which takes out a lot of guesswork and streamlines communications over game chat and voice chat. Don't be a dumbfuck.

So basically, you have no consistently logical standards- it's all about what tools you like and don't like to use.

You're still just trying to deny others the opportunity to experience this game through the use of third-party tools. You're still that botting fag who spends days doing stuff that makes him and those around him miserable. Your justification for being a cheating douche is that others are cheating douches too, so you aren't fucking anyone that hasn't already been anally plundered by other shells.

So you're saying "bring a knife to a gun fight"? You're the fucking douchebag who's too out of touch with reality to make sense about any of this.

PS- ground isn't that miserable when you can actually claim. And apparently your server doesn't bot, so whats your fucking excuse? Oh, I guess there'd be no cumulative goal of getting a special item just for you.

[Weeks]

Do you really not consider those who refuse to stoop to your level and stay out of king camps your endgame piers? Those are the people you're hurting. You may not have been the first person to bring a bot to the Aery, but the first time you did, you became just another asshole ruining the game for others.

Personally, I am in one of the few linkshells that honestly does not bot, period. Consequently, we don't even bother with earth HNM camps except for right after an update when fewer people have working bots. We've been accused of hiding in sea in the past. Oh well, we've got a shitload of torques and capes, are building a nice collection of Novi-s, and were the only HNMLS we know of to emerge unscathed when the wave of bannings finally hit our server. I'd like to get a fair shot at killing Fafnir more than 10 times a year, but I'm not willing to sell out to do so.

And before you go equating FFXIApp with TParty, I personally draw the line at tools which give you a distinct advantage over those you are in direct competition with, not anything (TParty, Vent, TeamSpeak) which streamlines communication. I suppose if I'm exping off of the same half-dozen spawns as another party that isn't using TParty, I'm being a hypocrite and I probably delayed their march to level 75 by a whole two or three minutes. I hereby apologize to anyone I've wronged in such a way.

[Delekii]

So router trick is okay because its not explicitly against SE's rules, even though it accomplishes something that gives you an advantage over other players and is something replicateable by a 3PP.

TParty is ok even though its against SEs rules and it gives an advantage over other players. PS- you're missing the part where Tparty shows alliance MP and monster HP, which takes out a lot of guesswork and streamlines communications over game chat and voice chat. Don't be a dumbfuck.

So basically, you have no consistently logical standards- it's all about what tools you like and don't like to use.

You're still just trying to deny others the opportunity to experience this game through the use of third-party tools. You're still that botting fag who spends days doing stuff that makes him and those around him miserable. Your justification for being a cheating douche is that others are cheating douches too, so you aren't fucking anyone that hasn't already been anally plundered by other shells.

So you're saying "bring a knife to a gun fight"? You're the fucking douchebag who's too out of touch with reality to make sense about any of this.

PS- ground isn't that miserable when you can actually claim. And apparently your server doesn't bot, so whats your fucking excuse? Oh, I guess there'd be no cumulative goal of getting a special item just for you.

You are trying to make something into black and white, when it isnt.

Trying to call someone morally reprehensible for not counting TParty in the same league as a claim bot makes you look fucking retarded. Seriously.

"Streamlining communications".... what a joke. Im not sure even you believe the shit you are spouting.

[Lordwafik]

Do you really not consider those who refuse to stoop to your level and stay out of king camps your endgame piers? Those are the people you're hurting. You may not have been the first person to bring a bot to the Aery, but the first time you did, you became just another asshole ruining the game for others.

Personally, I am in one of the few linkshells that honestly does not bot, period. Consequently, we don't even bother with earth HNM camps except for right after an update when fewer people have working bots. We've been accused of hiding in sea in the past. Oh well, we've got a shitload of torques and capes, are building a nice collection of Novi-s, and were the only HNMLS we know of to emerge unscathed when the wave of bannings finally hit our server. I'd like to get a fair shot at killing Fafnir more than 10 times a year, but I'm not willing to sell out to do so.

And before you go equating FFXIApp with TParty, I personally draw the line at tools which give you a distinct advantage over those you are in direct competition with, not anything (TParty, Vent, TeamSpeak) which streamlines communication. I suppose if I'm exping off of the same half-dozen spawns as another party that isn't using TParty, I'm being a hypocrite and I probably delayed their march to level 75 by a whole two or three minutes. I hereby apologize to anyone I've wronged in such a way.

Nice post and I agree with it 100% Paragraph2 = how I feel about doing stuff. I don't want to waste my time on ground kings anymore even though I still need crap from them, I just don't care to waste hours and hours there, when I can just do something quick in sea or dynamis with a small group of people.

Paragraph3, when someone who bots starts arguing about Tparty being a third party tool, they're clutching for straws. I mean, they don't wanna be the bad person all by them selves right? They need you to be a bad guy too so they're not so bad after all. I laugh when people try to say "You're using hax too because you use windower". Yeah ok.

[Makore]

There's simply no justification for botting. There's nothing left for botters to do but clutch at straws.

Every well-worded point will go over their heads, because they will continue to convince themselves that what they're doing is righteous, and thus, they can't possibly be wrong! TParty is the devil, so is windower! Botting isn't that bad in comparison!

If you steal a pack of candy, it's the same as stealing a car! It's the same principle guys!

[Darkmessenger]

My linkshell doesn't bot, nor do we allow it. However we do claim and kill ground kings. We only camp when they're in our timezone (EU primetime is usually ok for camping), or right after an update/maintenance. We've killed about 20 Fafnirs and 2 of each HQ king in one year~ .
Not really impressive numbers, but atleast my Linkshell is enjoying FFXI's end game activities; without feeling obligated to camp kings all the time.

All I'm saying is; it's possible to camp and claim Kings without using bots, you just have to be patient and pick the right times.

[Ryko]

I counted like... 5 people who thought he really meant that a windower plugin was as malicious or "bad" as running a bot in actuality, but rather than actually say why this might be relevant or even worth noting, I'm going to class.

[ircgeek]

I counted like... 5 people who thought he really meant that a windower plugin was as malicious or "bad" as running a bot in actuality, but rather than actually say why this might be relevant or even worth noting, I'm going to class.

I know this guy named Blessington that would have argued that point.

[Cat]

This thread grew.

Fact: The loot from kings is kind of a big deal.

Fact: All the endgame linkshells on unicorn who can kill kings (and even the ones who can't lol!), have the attituide of 'we bot, so what?'

Fact: If one linkshell bots, they have an advantage.

Fact: If they all bot, the playing field is level again.

Fact: The only king i have ever claimed was a KB when i was on a friends computer. ie. Legit.

Problem where?

[epigram]

Even if everyone at a camp has a bot, you have set a climate that requires someone to use a bot to obtain the same number of expected claims. So you have forced a moral dilema on anyone that would otherwise like to enjoy that activity.

It is not your right to force this moral dilema on anyone, it is greedy childish behavior.

[Cat]

You seem to be assuming that it was me who started the whole vicous cycle thing.

It totally wasn't.

[epigram]

If you read my post, then you could see it doesn't matter. Anyone who bots forces a moral dillema on those who choose not to.

[Cat]

A moral dillema of 'do we want to claim kings or not?'

[Eaglestrike]

A moral dillema of 'do we want to claim kings or not?'

I've seen a linkshell full of people too stupid and too laid back to figure out botting (they almost never show to HNM camps) pull Fafnir. Just need enough people and you can claim. The oldest HNMLS on Shiva will bring 25+ to Fafnir and clear darters before window to increase their chances of pull and it does work a decent amount.

[Cat]

so you bring 25 people and clear darters.

3 other competing linkshells bring 25 people and setup bots.

It's still lopsided it favour of bots.

[epigram]

To obtain the same expected number of claims as a botter you need to bot. So you either cheat and join the botters, or you accept that you will have less claims than the botters. For that later point you either choose to leave kings, or continue with a lower rate.

This fact that someone has to make this choice goes against the quality of service provided by SE, simply because of some greedy kids that bot.

[Jeryhn]

I think the whole botting justification thing goes, if you're going to equate getting drops as "fun", you're going to want to have as much "fun" as possible. Other people outclaiming you isn't fun, bots or not.

Personally, I don't bot, I've worked too hard on my character to put my account up to a risk of it getting banned/keylogged/whatever. But I'm really not going to care if a botted Nidhogg drops my Dalmatica, and I'm not going to thank the botter for his awesome program either.

You want an E.Body that badly, get a bot. Either that or accept what you said above Epi... that either you leave the Aery or continue on with the lower claim rate.

Life is unfair.