Summoner Changes 10/18/06 Anyone test yet?

[Khamsin]

how is wasting MP on an Avatar to hold a Link better than sleeping it with a RDM or BRD?

I still wouldn't choose to invite a SMN over a RDM or BRD. They're still the same old "nothing better to choose from" job. Except now they're higher on the totem pole than WHM (maybe).

Well if you use Carbuncle to hold a link, he can fight it down to 85%ish before the party comes over, but in the process it's TP'd on carby and you get two mobs spamming TP moves (Double Defining/Abrasive Tantra) causeing you to waste even more MP!

This is no better than one of the melee's deciding they'll tank the link till the party is ready and ends up making it worse for everyone.

Sure, if you're in the habit of holding mobs on top of your party. There's this thing called Retreat and Assault.

[Fingerspitz]

how is wasting MP on an Avatar to hold a Link better than sleeping it with a RDM or BRD?

I still wouldn't choose to invite a SMN over a RDM or BRD. They're still the same old "nothing better to choose from" job. Except now they're higher on the totem pole than WHM (maybe).

Huh? I love WHMs for merits 0o spamming regen and using the right barspells saves them about as much mp as refresh from rdm would give, I just have to work a little harder (brd) since I cant count on sleep IIs and have to do all the dispelling. I would take the whm I know over the rdm I dont, and the whm over summoner any day, patch or no patch. Maybe I don't know enough good SMNs, but I've never seen good WHMs have mp problems in buffalo thickets or mamook, and nothing beyond the usual 'dear god stop using cursed sphere' whining in mire.

I will admit I miss reliable silence on blm mamools and imps though <_<.

[Ksandra]

I just wanted to point out that smn can dispel. They just never did it since buffs were more important.

Now though if you really want it, they can keep fenrir out for dispel and at least be able to do his two buffs.

Of course obvious downsides are the mp and the recast timer is still one minute. But at least now they do have the opportunity to dispel now, where they really didn't before.


Oh and I've meritted with smn before patch, I have no problem meritting with them after patch either.

[Jeryhn]

Now though if you really want it, they can keep fenrir out for dispel and at least be able to do his two buffs.

Lunar Roar is a Ward, and on the same timer as his Ecliptic abilities.

You still have to choose between Dispel or enhance.

[Aodh]

Sure, if you're in the habit of holding mobs on top of your party. There's this thing called Retreat and Assault.

I merit on WHM or RDM because I actually contribute to the party and get far better EXP/hour. I have EXP'd with summoners who (more times than not) do the wrong thing without caring about the situation.

Example.
(Puller) Link.
Aodh casts Sleep II on Link.
The Link is Asleep.
Summoner starts casting Carbuncle.
(Summoner) Go get him Carby! Assault > Link.
Link is no longer asleep.
Link hits Aodh for 120 damage.
etc...

9 times out of 10, summoners do not have avatars ready to deal with links, and as such the 2nd tank or WAR has already voked the mob, the BRD or RDM has already slept it, and the party has hate.

Best EXP/hour on RDM: 16.5k/h. Two Merits in under 90min. RDM BRDx2 NIN WARx2
Best EXP/hour with a SMN: 7.5-8k/h. RDM SMN NIN COR WAR WAR

Why would I merit on a job which offers less to a party than another job I have and has never had the same ability to achieve the same scale of merits. SMN was my first job, SMN is what I consider my main. And because of this I know if offers less to merit parties than other jobs.

[Ksandra]

Now though if you really want it, they can keep fenrir out for dispel and at least be able to do his two buffs.

Lunar Roar is a Ward, and on the same timer as his Ecliptic abilities.

You still have to choose between Dispel or enhance.

bleh I fail my bad -.-;

I still don't mind xping with smn though. XD

[Khamsin]

Sure, if you're in the habit of holding mobs on top of your party. There's this thing called Retreat and Assault.

I merit on WHM or RDM because I actually contribute to the party and get far better EXP/hour. I have EXP'd with summoners who (more times than not) do the wrong thing without caring about the situation.

Example.
(Puller) Link.
Aodh casts Sleep II on Link.
The Link is Asleep.
Summoner starts casting Carbuncle.
(Summoner) Go get him Carby! Assault > Link.
Link is no longer asleep.
Link hits Aodh for 120 damage.
etc...

9 times out of 10, summoners do not have avatars ready to deal with links, and as such the 2nd tank or WAR has already voked the mob, the BRD or RDM has already slept it, and the party has hate.

Best EXP/hour on RDM: 16.5k/h. Two Merits in under 90min. RDM BRDx2 NIN WARx2
Best EXP/hour with a SMN: 7.5-8k/h. RDM SMN NIN COR WAR WAR

Why would I merit on a job which offers less to a party than another job I have and has never had the same ability to achieve the same scale of merits. SMN was my first job, SMN is what I consider my main. And because of this I know if offers less to merit parties than other jobs.

I merit on my RDM, too. I don't deny RDM is a much better meripo alternative, but some of the anti-SMN arguments needed refuting because they just weren't true.

[Jeryhn]

I merit on WHM or RDM because I actually contribute to the party and get far better EXP/hour.

...Why would I merit on a job which offers less to a party than another job I have and has never had the same ability to achieve the same scale of merits. SMN was my first job, SMN is what I consider my main. And because of this I know if offers less to merit parties than other jobs.

This is my situation as well. I just stay in EXP mode, cap my buffer on RDM and merit using it. If I ever die on SMN (it's EXP is currently capped as well), I'll be in EXP mode on that job to make it back up. It's pretty surprising how much EXP you can get just by doing random Besiege while bored in Whitegate, getting the Spice Gals EXP scroll on your way to Bahamut, or by killing wyrms.

However, the icing on the cake it that this update makes summoners more versatile, so they can offer more to a party than they could before, when they don't have a better job to merit on.

[Ksandra]

Why would I merit on a job which offers less to a party than another job I have and has never had the same ability to achieve the same scale of merits.

There's a big difference though in which job you want to merit on, and whether or not a pt would take a smn.

If you want to merit on rdm over smn that's fine. But not every smn has brd or rdm lvled. If someone seeks on smn that's their decision, and I think the issue is whether smns could get into merit pts now if they wanted to. Not necessarily, if it would be the best setup, or if they have rdm lvled then they have to seek on rdm.

[Evelyn]

ok, as a 75 RDM and WAR, I'm gonna add my comments about SMN in a merit party.

Last night I was in a merit party camping in Mamook, with NIN, WAR (me), THF, RDM, BRD, SMN. The players were skilled, and the SMN was especially well equipped from what I could tell (YY, multiple AF2, etc) but I didn't ask for his summoning skill.

The party was *extremely* efficient, although a more DD-focused job than the THF might have been useful. RDM and SMN shared main-healing duties, BRD did somgs and pulled. the SMN used Hastega, Earthen Ward, and Ecliptic Howl (It hink, the acc/eva one) buffs. NIN held hate most the fight (I have -enmity merits from my RDM main, so I didn't do too much tanking) and the only time we really lost chains were when we pulled Lurkers (THF mobs) which were too high for us to keep double Minuets on and still kill quickly.

Could we have benefited more from a second BRD or COR in the party? Possibly. But I personally found this setup to be an extremely efficient merit setup, getting more than 10k xp per hour. Definitely found this to be better than a WHM in place of the SMN.

[Aodh]

Your setup was one of the one's I listed for the "Best" setup including a Summoner. ^.^b

BRD RDM SMN Melee x3 is probably the best setup including a Summoner. The summoner makes up for the extra BRD through Damage BPs and buffs

How well would you have done with double march + double minuet (madrigal vs THFs)?

[Lamente]

I find it funny how everyone gets so angry at the mere suggestion of exping with anything less than their ideal setup.

[aurik]

I find it funny how everyone gets so angry at the mere suggestion of exping with anything less than their ideal setup.

Because xping is a job! What, do you think we play this game for fun or something?!

[Not Kuno]

Because xping is a job! What, do you think we play this game for fun or something?!

Craziest thing I've ever heard.

[Aodh]

Here's the basic pattern for the thread. Someone declaired that SMN would replace WHM, RDM and BRDs in Merit Parties, then the discussion turned to why that isn't true. Finally it ended with SMN agreeing that while RDM/WHM/BRD would still be better in EXP, the update makes SMN better than they were and offers more to the party than they did before.

No one has a problem with outlandish party setups, but knowing they're:

less than their ideal setup

while still claiming that they're better than the ideal setups are where the discussion was revolving.

Edit:

Because xping is a job! What, do you think we play this game for fun or something?!

o.o/ I don't find meriting on any job fun really. It's boring and repetitive going to the same 3 places where everyone goes and fighting the same mobs for little to no noticible gain. If I want merits, I'd rather get them as fast as possible so i can do other things which I find fun.

[Septimus]

Because xping is a job! What, do you think we play this game for fun or something?!

o.o/ I don't find meriting on any job fun really. It's boring and repetitive going to the same 3 places where everyone goes and fighting the same mobs for little to no noticible gain. If I want merits, I'd rather get them as fast as possible so i can do other things which I find fun.

Maybe I spent too many years as RDM, but I still enjoy making things go ouch on WAR.

But even then I do want to get my merits as efficiently as possible.

[Aodh]

WAR is my first choice too. BLU is fun as well, but always find it's (trying to find the right words...) like a quick lay? Pound away for 5min, then rest for 15... I guess that's kinda the right expression. It's a lot of power in very short bursts without the proper support (insert viagra joke here), but without MP it's less than poor and you slow the entire party down with you till you get it back again. WAR can just keep going.

[Evelyn]

with double march AND minuet, the THF mobs would have definitely gone faster, but I was using sushi (yeah I'm a semi-crappy war) so I wouldn't have seen a huge benefit on other mobs with my acc. If I did have two brds, I probably would have used meat, then I have no idea how I would have done (since I can't remember the last time I had two BRDs in the party, let alone how I did)

[FFXIFlux]

I find it funny how everyone gets so angry at the mere suggestion of exping with anything less than their ideal setup.

I find it funny how people don't get angry at SE for not fixing a seriously flawed and underpowered job.

Giving SMN haste finally was a step in the right direction, but theres a long way to go.

[aurik]

I find it funny how everyone gets so angry at the mere suggestion of exping with anything less than their ideal setup.

I find it funny how people don't get angry at SE for not fixing a seriously flawed and underpowered job.

Yo, this thread is about summoners, not dragoons.