The Angry American

[Remembrance]

This country is grounded in assimilation, I would _LOVE_ them to raid out illegals en masse and watch this country tumble to its knees.

Fact is, illegals provide cheaper, more efficient work, for longer hours a day than the average cracker. Pussy ass white men do not work like pack mules like mestizos, they sit and eat thier Quiznos while the little mexican guy is down in the hole.

Now i'm a second generation border hopper in Cali, so this may be all biased and whatnot, but this state would crumble so fucking hard without mexicans. Truth be told, I feel the US never took this state away from the mestizo population, mexican indians still make it work.

Don't get me wrong, i'm a taxpaying american, I think the leeching and abuse of the system is wrong, but whether you like it or not, the people you want out of your country put food on your table.

[Demosthenes11]

I wish I could cite this from somewhere but unfortunately I can't. Not to mention the statistics were in spanish anyway.

Illegals generate around 100,000,000,000(is that 100 billion in english?) dollars a year. They send 17,000,000,000 dollars to Mexico. Not even 20%. Why do you think California is the 5th largest economy in the world? Take away illegals and sit back and watch it crash. Yes, if you had USAtians doing those jobs, then the money would be reinjected back into your own economy. I'm sure USAtians would love to pick strawberries and tomatoes for the pay of an illegal and who recieve no health care for example. But hey, tell that to the people who hire immigrants. Not us. It's a two-sided story.

That's what I adressed in one of my earlier posts. The companies that are hiring illegals to work for them are making a very large profit because the wages are so low. Take away illegals, suddenly the companies are forced to pay higher wages in order for people to pick those strawberries. Sure, they could jack up prices to $10 a basket for strawberries then, but people would not buy them. Agriculture is already subsidized by the government, and I believe there is a price ceiling as well? The companies would still be making a profit after wages stabilize and prices stabilize. The only differences are not as much profit would be earned, and it would be legal americans in the jobs, profiting the economy more.

[Lasitha]

That's what I adressed in one of my earlier posts. The companies that are hiring illegals to work for them are making a very large profit because the wages are so low. Take away illegals, suddenly the companies are forced to pay higher wages in order for people to pick those strawberries. Sure, they could jack up prices to $10 a basket for strawberries then, but people would not buy them. Agriculture is already subsidized by the government, and I believe there is a price ceiling as well? The companies would still be making a profit after wages stabilize and prices stabilize. The only differences are not as much profit would be earned, and it would be legal americans in the jobs, profiting the economy more.

Yes, economy would stabilize eventually, however it'd never be as strong as it was before. No one likes to settle for less.

[Demosthenes11]

and that is where we disagree

[Anyway]

I have noooo problem with mexicans coming to this country, I have nooo problem with them working here either, but I DO have a problem with the amount of them that are coming over. I can easily consider it an epidemic, so many of them coming over. And it doesn't help when they have retarded marches like that one that happened couple months back. Like I said previously, I work with mexicans, but my boss makes sure not to hire ALL mexicans for the kitchen.

We have 3-4 "chefs" 2 White, 1 black, 1 mexican. Then we usually have mexicans on the grill and fryer. They also do the dishes. White busboys though. Kind of sucked when our mexican chef got caught coming back into America, wasn't able to get back til 5 months later.

[Correction]

Take away illegals, suddenly the companies are forced to close production facilities and move them overseas

Fixed. You make it sound as if taking away their cheap labor pool will make corporations do the right thing by the american worker. Maddox's solution was better.

[zoobernut]

The irony of that statement is that the money that illegals send back to their families in Mexico probably makes more of a difference to them than their labor does to us, especially considering that the illegal immigration problem costs the U.S. a lot of money in public services too.

Take away "illegal immigrants" to do work in the U.S. and you have an economic shift that hurts some but doesn't really devastate the country. Take away the money that illegal immigrants get for their families, and their families are even worse off than they already are.

Also, the hypocrisy of the Mexican government's stance toward illegal immigration to the U.S. (allowing them to avoid some of the pressure resulting their own policies) while being extremely brutal towards illegals who come into Mexico from their southern border is something that is overlooked a lot.

So we'll see how much of a difference comes about from your new president.

To add to this, much of what the illegals make in wage is not reinvested into the American economy. If we have Americans doing those jobs, thats that much more money being put back into the economy, actually making it better.

I wish I could cite this from somewhere but unfortunately I can't. Not to mention the statistics were in spanish anyway.

Illegals generate around 100,000,000,000(is that 100 billion in english?) dollars a year. They send 17,000,000,000 dollars to Mexico. Not even 20%. Why do you think California is the 5th largest economy in the world? Take away illegals and sit back and watch it crash. Yes, if you had USAtians doing those jobs, then the money would be reinjected back into your own economy. I'm sure USAtians would love to pick strawberries and tomatoes for the pay of an illegal and who recieve no health care for example. But hey, tell that to the people who hire immigrants. Not us. It's a two-sided story.

you are correct Lasitha not only that but even though they are not legal citizens alot of these people pay taxes on the money they earn and put large quantities of money to the government and yet take nothing out of the system. they pay into medicare and wellfare and have no claim to get anything back. i am not 100% sure on its accuracy but i have seen several accounts that without illegals in this country many of the government programs that citizens rely on would collapse and fail due to lack of funding. it is a touchy situation but its not black or white like some people like to think. not only that but to go back to the OP none of this has anything to do with little children bettering themselves by increasing their knowledge while growing up. like i said before learning 2 languages simultaniously growing up will only make a child smarter and stronger in the long run. but just because kids are learning a few spanish words every once in a while on TV does not mean it will overwrite everything they learn from their parents and in school it is in addition to all that.

[Quicklet]

Yes, economy would stabilize eventually, however it'd never be as strong as it was before. No one likes to settle for less.

I'm a bit anal about terms thrown around in the discussion of economics, so don't mind this tangent even though it still relates somewhat to the topic.

Saying that an economy is "strong" or "weak" (as opposed to, say, "stronger" or "weaker") is a very vague and loaded word that is more often than not used to sell policies than it is to provide a real description about an economy. Measuring an economy in GDP, Growth, Unemployment, or any of the other standard metrics doesn't always tell you whether or not the standard of living is better or worse, and that's what matters (from an economic standpoint): the standard of living, which is yet another general term that you can't really quantify. Unfortunately, I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about standard of living because there are a lot of complications these days into what exactly counts for it, and whether or not people really "want" the things they have.

It's a lot better to talk about economies in terms of their capital structure and how well they are allowed to adjust to economic forces. Generally speaking, human nature takes into account disruptions in an economy and corrects them assuming there aren't any factors preventing or hindering free market interactions from taking place.

So, in regards to what effect the illegal immigrant population has on the U.S. economy, on the surface it would seem like it's a win-win situation for both sides. If that population suddenly disappeared, it'd certainly disrupt the economy of the U.S. in those sectors, and at least short-term there would be a major imbalance. Theoretically, what *would* happen would be a shift in capital from the least desired sectors of the economy to correct for this major disruption, assuming that the government didn't do some crazy intervention that would make the problem even worse (a la The Great Depression). Having illegals unable to work in the U.S. would hurt Mexicans a lot too since from everything I know (and if I'm wrong, go ahead and correct me) there are a lot more opportunities / better-paying jobs for Mexicans here than in Mexico.

Oh, and not all jobs that illegals work in are shit (although I'm not saying they aren't exploited, because I'm sure a lot of them are). But when the janitors in some of these places are making $20/hr for the work they do, it's not exactly a terrible thing for them if it's worth the money.

Also, to the poster who referred to certain government programs collapsing if the taxes from illegal immigrants went away: government spending and policies have more to do with the viability of most of those programs (especially if you're referring to Social Security and its related programs) than how much taxes the government is getting. Hell, most of those programs are going to end up failing eventually in their current form because of demographic reasons. Any difference in money coming in would only affect when it happens, not whether or not it will happen at all.

[zoobernut]

i understand that government spending and policies have more to do with the viability of those programs than immigrants tax dollars but as it stands now those tax dollars are what is keeping those programs alive. there is a very slim chance that the government would be able to adjust its spending habits and policies in order to save those programs if the tax dollars from immigrants dissapeared.

but really this thread is not about this it is about a childrens show teaching spanish on tv and a parent freaking out about it and feeling like the whole country and english is threatened by this fact.

[Stilgar]

The OP and Demosthenes seem to think that there's something you can do to stem the tide of change in languages. As the US gets a higher and higher hispanic population, Spanish is going to become more and more prevalent, and there's absolutely zero you can do about it.

What will likely happen in the end is that English will continue to evolve, and incorporate more and more words from Spanish. All the keys to success in this country at the moment involve English, so second and third generations of today's immigrants will undoubtedly be speaking English predominantly, albeit with a heavier portion of Spanish leavened into their total vocabulary (that of both languages combined).

If you want to see how effective are actions to prevent this sort of linguistic co-mingling, just take a look at France's astonishingly bad failure to keep foreign words out of French, and to create new French words to take the place of them and other modern words.

[Daahan]

Agriculture is already subsidized by the government

That's hardly the case. The government barely subsidizes agriculture since there are so many agricultural institutions in the country. That's why there are many, many farmers who are struggling, because there are so many sellers and competition.

That's why most agriculture is really cheap. Price ceilings aren't exactly neccessary. Although it has a little bit to do with it.

[archibaldcrane]

i understand that government spending and policies have more to do with the viability of those programs than immigrants tax dollars but as it stands now those tax dollars are what is keeping those programs alive.

Illegal immigrants take much more out of the system in the burdens they place on social institutions, schools, hospitals, etc., than they put in with their occasional taxes. There's pros and cons to the presence of illegal aliens in America, but don't take a con and pretend it's a pro.

[zoobernut]

i am not taking a con and pretending like it is a pro. illegal immigrants pump millions of dollars into the california economy and take much less out of it than they put in. prove to me that they take much more out of the system then they put in because everything i have seen or read about the subject says otherwise.

[archibaldcrane]

prove to me that they take much more out of the system then they put in because everything i have seen or read about the subject says otherwise.

From: http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bi ... 449&terms= (an analysis of taxes paid by illegal immigrants vs. social services received, trying to resolve disputes between different studies on the issue)

Synopsis:
Illegal immigrants do not pay their way and all studies agree on this point. Moreover, the Urban Institute's estimation of taxes paid by illegal aliens is too high so the costs borne by the states are even greater than was estimated by the Urban Institute.

-------------------------------------------------------------

As a society we've been willing to put up with this social services drain in order to, basically, get cheaper food/products because of imbalanced labor markets where some sectors don't have to pay what the jobs are worth because of their willingness to hire illegal immigrants. However, the social services drain DOES EXIST, it forces hospitals to close, causes problems in schools, etc. Whether or not it's worth it is the major question, and I'm still not sure where I stand on it, besides believing that the situation needs to get out of the grey area of unenforced/ignored laws.

[zoobernut]

thanks for that very interesting and informative article. and i agree with you we need to get out of the grey area. but i still do not think that illegal immigrants are evil and should be gotten rid of. however i also think alot of these articles are very decieving and fall into a catagory of propeganda and it is tough to decide who is putting forth the true numbers. it is just as easy to swing it one way as the other in order to get your own point across. i appologize for not having the source of the information i read about it but i will take it into much closer consideration than before now that i have seen an arguement in the opposite direction.

i want to hear what the OP has to say about all this. this thread has come a long way from a child watching dora to illegal immigrants in california and their tax benefits vs. society drain. i would like to know if anything anyone has said has changed your mind or was your mind already made up and you just wanted to hear peoples opinions on it for fun? do you still think that your daughter learning one word of spanish from a tv show is forshadowing the ultimate demise of the U.S. as a primarily english speaking country?
if you are still worried about it think about that there areas in this country that are very bilingual however this does not mean anything to the country at large. i believe eventually california will become a bilingual state speaking spanish and english but it probably wont spread much past that. think about areas in louisiana where everyone speaks french and english this does not mean that french spread out and took over the country and everyone speaks french.

[aglcic]

First of all, I am not American, nor Mexican.

I don't think OP and some of the people complain because their kids/family need to learn spanish, but how it became necessary to learn it. On top of that, they feel the drive behind this Spanish fever is caused by Spanish speaking illegal immigrants. It feels like the country is been taking over by the illegal immigrants slowly, starting from their language.

One exmaple would be, if there are massive illegal immigrants from China moving into, let's say, Italy. And soon italian kids show start to teach local kids Chinese. If I am Italian, I would be pissed too and feel violated, especially those immigrants came over through illegal gateways.

I respect immigrants and adore multi-culture. I love to learn new langauges, but not because I have to but because I want to. Normally for immigrants, they try to adapt into the new country's society while trying to keep their tradition, stuff like puting effort to learn the new language and such. In this case, it's like forcing local people to adapt to thier language than anything else. I would be pissed if I(or my kids) have to learn Spanish else will be in disadvanage because of illegal immigrants from Mexica. After all this is my country, not theirs.

I can see it, America is slowly been taking over by Mexican, just wait until 22nd century.

[archibaldcrane]

The thing about the OP that is kinda hilarious....

....the show is called DORA THE MOTHERFUCKING EXPLORER.

The point is that Dora travels around to different places, showing the local cultures and tossing in a couple words of the local language. That is the whole point of the show. Dora isn't calling blue "azul" because the local kids in her barrio in L.A. are calling it that, she's calling it azul because she's travelled to Spain or Mexico or Argentina or Peru or etc. etc.

Dora the Explorer is no more influenced by illegal mexican immigration than was sesame street when they taught me that water was agua 20 years ago.

Edit: Everything said in this post was wrong.

[Enkidu]

My little cousin watches the show, the little girl is insanely mexican, with the spanish accent and everything...

I don't think it's about "exploring" either, the show seems to focus on everything Spanish.

[archibaldcrane]

Lol, ok maybe you're right. I've never seen Dora the Explorer. From now on, ignore me whenever I have any opinions related to said explorer.

[Epical]

Wow, reading this thread has showed me just how fucked up some people are. >_> You live in an English community, speak English in the home, go to an English school, read and watch English books/shows, and your kid can say blue in Spanish. Obviously, the only logical solution is to flip out, great job. I'm not calling you a bad person/parent, it just makes no sense at all. =\

I also have taken some offense to this thread. I'm 110% Canadian (English-speaking), but my mother's side of my family is hardcore Italian, and I'm taking Spanish courses for the next year... am I at fault? No. Did my mother's side of the family get all mad at her for having me fluent in Italian until age 5 and then completely dropping the language for English? No. Yeah, I didn't know a word of English until I moved out to Alberta from Ontario (Toronto, specifically, which has a very high percentage of Italians) when I was 6, and now it's completely vice-versa. I can say like 3 words in Italian, and a couple phrases, but nothing like my mother['s family]. I've never received a mark in any English class (junior high/high school/college level) under A (can't say the same for sciences and math, w), so who's to say your kid learning one Spanish word before they're fluent in English, nevermind a whole language, is bad for them? Let the child enjoy their show... but I'll stop there... I'm not going to tell you how to parent your kid.