The Angry American

[Kenai]

Good debate here, better and more serious than most.

OP: I can see what you are saying, and to a certain extent I agree with you (on the economic situation with illegal immigrants, although I think that a big part of the problem isn't the what the U.S. government hasn't done, but what it has already done to encourage people to hire illegal immigrants at low prices vs U.S. citizens at realistic wages). I just think you are being angry at the wrong thing (Dora, lol). Even without the illegial immigrants coming into our country, by living in the U.S. and living so close to, and interacting with, our closest neighboring countries, the first second language to learn would be Spanish. It uses Romanization as opposed to kanji text of Japanese or Chinese so it is easier to relate to the English language, written in the same direction as English, and has many English cognates, making it an exceptional second language to learn for a developing youngster.

As for Dora the Explorer itself, even though she speaks Spanish fluently and has some friends who speak "only" Spanish in the show, from watching just a few of them all the way through. at least 75-80% of the dialogue is in English, and her constant buddy, Boots the monkey, is not a fluent Spanish speaker himself, but mainly speaks English and comes from an English speaking family. When Dora uses spanish, she will 90% of the time say "The Spanish word for ___ is ____" or "____ is ____ in Spanish", leading children to learning words that they are already familiar with, not new sspanish words that they do not know the English eqivalent of. Also, coming from someone who is still trying to master a 2nd and 3rd language, what *really* gets you immersed into a language is speaking it on a regular basis, with other people. As such, since you speak only English in and around your home, and I assume wherever she goes to school will also, you really do not have anything to worry about from Spanish taking over as her primary speaking methods. Speaking with your daughter on a regular basis and holding conversations with her in English, plus her friends, and someday teachers and co-workers, will go a lot farther than any T.V. show.

[Scar]

I'm going to do something slightly annoying and split the quote, but I'm trying to highlight what I see as the confusion of two entirely separate points you are joining and claiming as the source of all your dusgust.

The bottom line is that illegal immigrants ARE coming in to my country in rapid numbers, and the business men that want cheap janitors

This is not the point I'm disagreeing with. Yes, illegal immigration is a big problem and it's bad for all sides of the equation.

But.

are forcing their employees to play charades to get them to understand "clean the fucking bathroom" - knowing damn well they couldn't pass the test for citizenship without being to say a damn word in English. They don't learn the native language

You haven't sufficiently demonstrated that legal immigrants are better at this. In a lot of cases, a fresh legal immigrant in the same position would struggle just as much with English and infuriate you just the same. This leads me to believe that you'd rather see a naturally-born citizen in the position than any kind of immigrant in the first place. This is the kind of thinking I wish you'd reconsider before passing it along to future generations.

And I truly doubt most high school graduates, regardless of where they came from, could pass the American Citizenship test.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/blinstst.htm

Try it. Without google. I fucking dare you.

99/100. I didn't know the names of both Senators from my home state, but I'm living in Italy right now and could care less.

I was actually expecting harder questions than that, but I'll be honest. If William Rehnquist had died or stepped down from the position of Chief Justice, I'd have went 98/100.

[Fuuko]

You haven't sufficiently demonstrated that legal immigrants are better at this. In a lot of cases, a fresh legal immigrant in the same position would struggle just as much with English and infuriate you just the same. This leads me to believe that you'd rather see a naturally-born citizen in the position than any kind of immigrant in the first place. This is the kind of thinking I wish you'd reconsider before passing it along to future generations.

And I truly doubt most high school graduates, regardless of where they came from, could pass the American Citizenship test.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/blinstst.htm

Try it. Without google. I fucking dare you.

You are basically stating common sense, any two people in similar circumstances would have the same problems more often than not. I could equally state that a US citizen born on a army base who speaks mostly the native language there would have the same problems as an illegal. It is somewhat pointless.

What you purposefully ignore is that legal residents have spent years waiting, countless hours in class's and doing paper work, often thousands of dollars before they ever start the naturalization process. The only thing an illegal has done is payed thousands of dollars to some guy to sneak them over the border.

A legal immigrant is required to show a decent understanding of English before becoming a US citizen, an illegal is never required to learn English, and most do not(Based on how many I've meet in Texas). A legal immigrant is required to pass the test you posted, showing at least a good understanding of US history. An illegal is not. A legal immigrant is required to take a oath towards the US, an illegal is not, and some don't ever want to( http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/illegalsi ... ir=23a3re2 obviously this is slanted and does not show more sane banners)

It is pretty damn obvious why legal residents will assimilate faster than illegal immigrants will, if they even bother to try. Also, a illegal can NEVER become a US citizen, unless we grant ammensty agian, technically they can never assimilate fully.

There is a big reason the majority of immigration talk is about granting work Visa's to illegals, or those who want to become an illegal. They do not want to become a US citizen, they just want a job. It is really that simple.

As for the test 99/100, I only knew we have over 300 in the house not the exact number. The fact that most don't know it is because the education dep. is more focused on teaching PC bullshit than history, but that is another topic all together.

*gramer, spellling

[archibaldcrane]

Damn, you guys are doing really well on that test. I got 88/100:

22. How many changes or amendments are there to the Constitution? 27 - I thought it was 26.

30. How many senators are there in Congress? I said 102 not 100, couldn't remember if DC got them or not

33. How many representatives are there in Congress? I said 335 - misread the question, thought it meant just in the house of representatives, not total - answer is 435.

38. What is the supreme court law of the United States? Wasn't sure what this was asking, although I know that the supreme court rules on constitutional matters.

44. Can you name thirteen original states? (said West Virginia instead of Georgia)

45. Who said, "Give me liberty or give me death."? Patrick Henry, just straight up didn't know that one.

59. Who was the main writer of the Declaration of Independence? I said George Washington (It's Thomas Jefferson, and I should've known that)

61. What is the basic belief of the Declaration of Independence? Kind of vague, I said that the U.S. should be a free and soverign nation (it's that all men are created equal)

72. What Immigration and Naturalization Service form is used to apply to become a naturalized citizen? Form N-400, Application to File Petition for Naturalization (not something a citizen would regularly know) You guys knew the name of this form? Jesus christ.

80. In what year was the Constitution written? 1787, I knew it wasn't 1776 and I knew it was after, but didn't know the year.

87. What is the most important right granted to U.S. citizens? The right to vote - didn't know what they were looking for here.

92. Name the right guaranteed by the first amendment. Got most of them, except for "the right to request a change in government" and i said "assembly" not "peacetime assembly"

I almost don't believe people who say 99/100. Almost.

[archibaldcrane]

This leads me to believe that you'd rather see a naturally-born citizen in the position than any kind of immigrant in the first place.

Of course, giving preferential treatment to naturally-born US citizens is part of the core fabric of our nation. It's in the constitution to do so.

[Mephisto]

72. What Immigration and Naturalization Service form is used to apply to become a naturalized citizen? Form N-400, Application to File Petition for Naturalization (not something a citizen would regularly know) You guys knew the name of this form? Jesus christ.

Not even going to pretend I know that, but I'd assume if you're trying to become naturalized you'd probably have heard that form name 50,000 times, and so would probably know it... D;

[Correction]

You are basically stating common sense, any two people in similar circumstances would have the same problems more often than not. I could equally state that a US citizen born on a army base who speaks mostly the native language there would have the same problems as an illegal. It is somewhat pointless.

No, it's the entire point of the OP. Emphasis added.

At that moment, I realized that half of the kids shows she watches on the kids channel teach spanish words through it. They repeat them over and over, and relate them to things kids understand.

This pisses me off. Why are we excepting this epidemic of allowing the spanish language to take control over the english language in this country?

I'm an american soldier, 4 years active, now in the reserve, a staff sergeant E6. I'm a patriot, and I dont like the way this is going for the country I love and serve. We're allowing this shit to take control. We're in fact losing control over the dominant language and culture of this country.


Or am I simply looking too hard in to things? Personally, I'll treat her saying spanish words the same as I would her saying a curse word. She'll be in time out, and told "thats naughty". She can learn Japanese, German, Italian, French...even Spanish - but not against her will, and not because we are laying down and simply accepting that the illegals are in such strong numbers that we're being forced to learn THEIR language.

He seems to think that because the TV is teaching his child Spanish that it means she's being indoctrinated to accept English as an unimportant language, nevermind that it's used 100% at whatever school they attend.

And somehow this is the fault of illegal immigrants and their filthy language. Never mind that legal immigrants speak exactly the same language and demand the same television that illegal immigrants would, and that the same shitty/dangerous/low-paying jobs are often filled by illegal immigrants are also often filled by legal immigrants, such that the means by which they entered the country is not necessarily a factor in that boss performing charades to instruct their freshly-hired toiled scrubber to do his job properly.

I'm really not seeing how illegal immigration = 'losing control over the dominant language and culture of this country.' I'm actually quite curious as to what he thinks the dominant culture of this country is in particular, why it should be this immutable thing, and what cartoons he grew up on that reinforced that notion.

[Correction]

This leads me to believe that you'd rather see a naturally-born citizen in the position than any kind of immigrant in the first place.

Of course, giving preferential treatment to naturally-born US citizens is part of the core fabric of our nation. It's in the constitution to do so.

show me where, mr. 88/100

[Fuuko]

You are basically stating common sense, any two people in similar circumstances would have the same problems more often than not. I could equally state that a US citizen born on a army base who speaks mostly the native language there would have the same problems as an illegal. It is somewhat pointless.

No, it's the entire point of the OP. Emphasis added.

lots of irrelevant stuff

You, not the OP, made the claim that legal and illegal immigrants would struggle at learning English in the same position. My post makes the point that that it is true of any two people, in almost any circumstance, and what the real difference between legal and illegal are. It has nothing to do with the OP. I disagreed with your assertion, and said why. I really do not see why this was unclear.

[Fuuko]

This leads me to believe that you'd rather see a naturally-born citizen in the position than any kind of immigrant in the first place.

Of course, giving preferential treatment to naturally-born US citizens is part of the core fabric of our nation. It's in the constitution to do so.

show me where, mr. 88/100

I'll do a quick example for him.

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

[zoobernut]

and yet the most important part of the constitution and declaraction of independence is the idea that all people are equal citizen or non citizen. and the rights given by the constitution apply to everyone in this country not just legal citizens.

[Jerseyprophet]

I will be humble enough to admit that a great deal of the information in this discussion has altered my perception - perhaps even bottom line opinions. Not necessarily through persuassion of your arguement, but the natural reflection I've made in reading it.

Illegal immigration is a concern for America, however, I'm seeing your sides in arguing the actual effects of it on the economy.

This is a sensitive subject for many, and I know that emotions run intense with it, so let's just leave it at this: I stand corrected.

[archibaldcrane]

I'll do a quick example for him.

Thank you Fuuko, that's what I was looking for

[Demosthenes11]

And somehow this is the fault of illegal immigrants and their filthy language. Never mind that legal immigrants speak exactly the same language and demand the same television that illegal immigrants would, and that the same shitty/dangerous/low-paying jobs are often filled by illegal immigrants are also often filled by legal immigrants, such that the means by which they entered the country is not necessarily a factor in that boss performing charades to instruct their freshly-hired toiled scrubber to do his job properly.

The fact is, if it weren't for the millions of illegal latino immigrants, we wouldn't be having this discussion. These people are illegally immigrating into the country, and because there are so many of them, we are forced to somewhat adapt to them, instead of vice-versa. Legal immigration is controlled so we don't have this kind of situation (millions of people illegally here and we have no idea who they are)

And the job part - I don't give a fuck who scrubs the toilets lol
Either way, we would survive without illegal immigrants.

[zoobernut]

And somehow this is the fault of illegal immigrants and their filthy language. Never mind that legal immigrants speak exactly the same language and demand the same television that illegal immigrants would, and that the same shitty/dangerous/low-paying jobs are often filled by illegal immigrants are also often filled by legal immigrants, such that the means by which they entered the country is not necessarily a factor in that boss performing charades to instruct their freshly-hired toiled scrubber to do his job properly.

The fact is, if it weren't for the millions of illegal latino immigrants, we wouldn't be having this discussion. These people are illegally immigrating into the country, and because there are so many of them, we are forced to somewhat adapt to them, instead of vice-versa. Legal immigration is controlled so we don't have this kind of situation (millions of people illegally here and we have no idea who they are)

And the job part - I don't give a fuck who scrubs the toilets lol
Either way, we would survive without illegal immigrants.

i totally fail to see how this completely only has to do with illegal immigrants. even if there were no illegal immigrants we would be having this discussion because spanish speaking populace would still make up a very large part of california and this country. you fail to see what everyone else has already realized. that A) illegal immigrants is not connected to Dora the explorer speaking spanish on TV. B) a TV show teaching kids a couple spanish words per week is not "assimilating" the general public to the illegal immigrants its merely trying to make kids smarter overall. and C) the issue if illegal immigrants is imortant and it can be a problem with regaurds to certain aspects of this country but its not a black and white issue where the solution is getting rid of all illegal immigrants 100% and closing down the borders.

if everyone was as close minded as you then this country would not exist because it is based in immigration. and there were not always neat little systems and laws on how you are supposed to immigrate. unless you are native american at some point your family immigrated here.

[archibaldcrane]

While both illegal and legal mexican immigrants have challenges assimilating to the country, the fact remains that it's easier for illegal immigrants. They are much less likely forced into the lowest sector of illegal employers, they are much more likely to be integrated into non-spanish-only areas of society.

Just talking #s here:
Hispanic or Latino (2000 census):
37,659,799

# of illegal immigrants in america:
It is difficult to accurately measure the number of illegal immigrants in the United States, but most public agencies and private groups had settled on a figure of about 11 million.

from http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/07/D8G6U2KO8.html

Now, not 100% of illegal immigrants are from spanish speaking countries. However, "The report estimates that 850,000 illegal immigrants have arrived in United States each year since 2000." - given that rate of illegal immigration, it's safe to assume that a vast, vast majority are from spanish-speaking countries.

Look at what we're talking about - that's more than 25% of the hispanics in america are illegal immigrants. Given that these people are also most likely to be in spanish-only work and home environments, it -is- significant, and illegal immigration -is- a huge factor regarding language issues in America. Assuming no illegal immigration, you're cutting the hispanic population in america by over 25%. That's very significant, and could even *gasp* undercut some of the support for a very hispanic-themed show like Dora the Explorer.

See how I tied that all up in a nice little bow there?

Again, spanish isn't "taking over america", and learning new languages is cool.

Aaaaand illegal immigration is a major problem in america.

This stuff is complicated, and stuff.

[Demosthenes11]

Not only that Archibald, but if you look at specific states, such as California, Texas, and Arizona, the latino population, I am 100% sure, is closer to 40-50% illegal.

A) illegal immigrants is not connected to Dora the explorer speaking spanish on TV. B) a TV show teaching kids a couple spanish words per week is not "assimilating" the general public to the illegal immigrants its merely trying to make kids smarter overall. and C) the issue if illegal immigrants is imortant and it can be a problem with regaurds to certain aspects of this country but its not a black and white issue where the solution is getting rid of all illegal immigrants 100% and closing down the borders.

A) o rly?
B) Then tell me why it isn't French, or German, or Portuguese. The fact is, there are more latinos in this country than any other immigrant group. As Archibald pointed out, a quarter of these people should not be here. Take away that population, would Sesame Street and Dora still be teaching Spanish, or would they be teaching German? I understand the importance of learning a second language, and support it 100%. Learning spanish isnt a bad thing, but to think it hasnt become the secondary language in this country because of illegal immigration is just ignorance. Chinese/Indian(Hindi?) is 100% more useful in the world business spectrum, yet those programs in schools are thrown out to allow more kids to take spanish. Coincidence?

Removing all illegals and closing the illegal borders wouldnt solve all problems, but it would solve some, and I really see no downside to it

[archibaldcrane]

Just so everyone's clear, don't mistake my opinions on the issue with Demosthenes.

[Demosthenes11]

Just so everyone's clear, don't mistake my opinions on the issue with Demosthenes.

<3, that last comment got ya didn't it :wink:

[zoobernut]

archibald your last post was very illuminating, and you actually have opened my eyes to the whole immigration issue.

i did not mistake your opinion to be the same as demosthenes.

this country is a melting pot. that is a over used but very accurate term when describing a country that is filled with a large variety of people from many different cultures. this country was created out of a mixture of all of these cultures and is shaped by them. our language we use today have many many words from many different languages that we have assimilated into our own, many from french, and many from spanish.

the things that put up red flags to me about the illegal immigration issue DO NOT involve having our "culture" ruined or being forced to assimilate to their culture or my worry that english is in danger of being taken over by spanish. i am interested in exploring the costs involved in illegal immigration, how much do they really put into the system? how much do they really take out? how much of a strain on the schools do they represent? how expensive would it be to go after all of them and close down the borders? would maintaining the borders and allowing militia groups like the minute men to run rampant be more cost effective than what we have now?

to me hating illegal immigrants or wanting to stop immigration because they are bringing their culture into the US is decidedly un-patriotic because this country would not be what it is if we limited the cultures that influenced us and kept other cultures out.