super-rare drops linked to # in existence on server?

[zoobernut]

Geno i think its funny you claim to know for a fact that the system is 100% random yet there is no actual proof that it is random, just a theory based on the scope of our observations. until you can actually prove that it is random (only way to do this would be to talk to a programmer from SE) the idea that there is some sort of pattern built into it by SE is just as valid an opinion as that it is 100% random.

just like when people had only explored a small portion of the world and believed it was flat from their perspective that was true but since they had not explored the entire world and seen the edge of the world they could not prove it was flat so the theory that it was round was equaly valid (although they frowned upon that theory)

not saying i dissagree with you i am just trying to point out this person is not dumb for making up an interesting theory.

[Genosync]

not saying i dissagree with you i am just trying to point out this person is not dumb for making up an interesting theory.

Care for me to find the other six or seven threads on this topic?

[NynJa]

the other threads were "HAY MY SRVR OWNZ WE GOT 3 DRING WERE BETTER TAHN U LAWLZ"

[Genosync]

Naw, I'm talking about the nearly year old ones. There's a few lying around back in the archives.

[Stellar]

The random number generator doesn't seem very random at all to me..

[Freight]

Back when you could force d.ring to drop by only having people in the party/alliance that kills KB who have a pixie earring, there was a very hardcore Japanese linkshell on gilgamesh, GraceFullNation/bancha (I might be remembering linkshell wrong, it's been a long time), that got many, many d.rings.

Too bad that didn't actually work. Pretty sure every server had the JP shell that tried that.

[zymurgy]

I don't have a screenshot proving that you can't steal a warp scroll to win since I didn't bother taking a screenshot, given I was so pissed off that I wasted 12 or so tries trying to steal a warp scroll from him, and ended up still losing on that run.

Thief was the last job I beat him on, I had to level it to 69 just to win.

[Genosync]

k looks like I have work to do then!

but THF is my love right now so it's all good.

[NynJa]

Back when you could force d.ring to drop by only having people in the party/alliance that kills KB who have a pixie earring, there was a very hardcore Japanese linkshell on gilgamesh, GraceFullNation/bancha (I might be remembering linkshell wrong, it's been a long time), that got many, many d.rings.

Too bad that didn't actually work. Pretty sure every server had the JP shell that tried that.

Actually it did work, this is also how people used to force out various BCNM drops.

[shinobi_tabi]

randomness in fxxi will never be truly random
like how someone once explained a random number generator isnt truly random
it is a possibility a monster spawns with his loot pool before hand, spawning with either loot pool "a" "b" "c" or "d", although i would like top think that when a mob spawns it is randomly selected whether or not it "could possibly" a, b, c, or d.
And that when you kill it, the game randomly processes which one you get out of the ones it spawned with...
mob spawns with loot pool a,c,d chances
you kill it and get loot pool c
this thread is dumb
ibtl

[chiyio]

Back when you could force d.ring to drop by only having people in the party/alliance that kills KB who have a pixie earring, there was a very hardcore Japanese linkshell on gilgamesh, GraceFullNation/bancha (I might be remembering linkshell wrong, it's been a long time), that got many, many d.rings.

Too bad that didn't actually work. Pretty sure every server had the JP shell that tried that.

/sigh Thanks for not knowing shit about what you're talking about. boy do I feel the fool.

[shat]

it's why some BCNMs have their good drop as an extra drop. think UO. my brother and i tried to force PCC without thinking about it being an extra drop so we ended up with 2 items per run. on the other hand, back in the day we would do torque BCs and force the right torques to drop. no one left empty handed. i'm pretty sure you can still do it.

[Navia]

Um, im not refering to any item in particular 'Wink wink'... But has droprate of SUPER-RARE items ever been linked to the # of them in existence on a server? Someone in my shell suggested this theory and it is rather interesting because almost every server seems to have had a, or multiple, "super-rare" items drop from a monster that rhymes with ring rehemoth after the recent banning sweeps.

If this topic has allready been beaten into the ground.... sorry im at a fafnir camp (im bored outa my fucking skull)...

Also... SIG UPDATED!

In practice it seems like a neat idea to limit particular items on a server as a function of the server's population, but there are a multitude of additional factors that make limiting drops in this way a huge problem.
I worked on an online game once upon a time that explored this idea for not just treasure, but actual resources/crafting materials - its pretty much impossible to code something up that can properly handle anumber of things:

-Items left in storage and no longer used. Rare items eventually look like they never existed because noone that has them equipped because they are playing another job or they become a mule character for another player.

-Items on temporarily inactive accounts. If you allow another item to drop just because someone cancels their account but they later re-activate (hi2u return to vanadiel) rarity has been manipulated. An item being dropped/desynthed or a player being perma banned is the only immediate way to determine a rare object can be allowed to drop again.

-Item hoarding of rares on mule accounts to force artificial shortage in supply. People with a rare items will cockblock others from getting it to maintain their e-peen and gameplay advantage.
LS's would camp rares for the sole purpose of denying others said items *permanently* if some rares had a maximum limit numbered in the hundreds.


The real truth is that random number generators are streaky, especially ones written for video games because they have to be fast.

[Navia]

it's why some BCNMs have their good drop as an extra drop. think UO. my brother and i tried to force PCC without thinking about it being an extra drop so we ended up with 2 items per run. on the other hand, back in the day we would do torque BCs and force the right torques to drop. no one left empty handed. i'm pretty sure you can still do it.

The old treasure code checked to see if it was possible for anyone in the party to obtain a randomly chosen item from the bc's loot pool. If everyone had said rare item, it would 'pick again' which exploited the good intentions of the algorithm that wanted to make sure no treasure was generated that would be lost due to the rare tag.
It doesn't work for anything anymore because it doesn't do that check any longer for game events involving a treasure chest.

[shotgn]

The real truth is that random number generators are streaky, especially ones written for video games because they have to be fast.

Aw man, your post was SO good up until this.

[shat]

It doesn't work for anything anymore because it doesn't do that check any longer for game events involving a treasure chest.

when did they change the way treasure chests worked? the last time i forced torques was sometime last year. =/

[Faranim]

I've always wondered if the "random" number generator in FFXI isn't truly random and you can actually skew the results if you know how the algorithm works. There's been many theories throughout FFXI which relate things to Moon Phase / Game Time / Day of week (hi2u Kirin teleporter / Face North on Windsday when using Light crystal for more HQ, but only during 17% waxing moon).

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if their "random" function is really just a hashing function which takes a variety of always-changing inputs (current game date + time + moon for example). And that if you somehow knew the inner-workings of this function, you could use it to your advantage (e.g. the hashing function has a higher chance of returning large numbers when the Vana'Diel year is a multiple of 13 or something).

Of course, the only way to know is if you have access to the source code.

[Navia]

The real truth is that random number generators are streaky, especially ones written for video games because they have to be fast.

Aw man, your post was SO good up until this.

I'm probably asking for a 'whoooosh' here, but i'm serious.
Speaking as a programmer I have several random number routines, which one I use depends on the mix of 'randomness' I need versus speed and other factors.
I find it amusing that the random number generator dilbert cartoon someone posted in this thread has been taped on my monitor for the last couple years.

[aurik]

Unlike other games where the RNG is queried hundreds of times per frame, I doubt that FFXI needs a bleeding fast function for random numbers. Just have an independent RNG for each zone server, should be plenty of horsepower. If they have one that has noticeably streakiness, they're doing it wrong.

[shotgn]

Well, what do you mean by streaky? I'm sure even your fastest random number generator still generates an even distribution of output values.

Even if I'm right, though, the other part of your post is extremely illuminating and I hope everyone who posted in this thread except aurik and a few others really reads and thinks about it.

Pretty much the more experience a person has with programming, the more in the "it's all totally random" camp they are likely to be. It's the noobs that know nothing about programming who come up with the elaborate stupid theories. Was it mikesjustice who first advocated the humongous database that contains every single NM drop and craftable item cross-referenced with each player theory?

-

That's my initial gut feeling, aurik, but after thinking about it for a sec I guess with all the combat damage generation, mob movement and stuff, the random number calculations might make a difference. I'm not sure, though, Navia or anyone who's actually worked on an online game would know better.