TOS change

[Mr.City]

And despite what you people may think, you are only reading and seeing what you want to see. My posts are reflections of such. I know exactly what everyone here is saying, but it was an amusing way to spend my day, watching each stance attempt to defend how it is right.

BTW: Using another computer to parse this is a prime example of "Within the letter of the law, but not the spirit"

My,my, you do a wonderful job of grandstanding, don't you?

[Devek]

You can argue semantics but you won't change a thing

If the majority of players were against tparty and windower you guys might have a point.. Windower is simply a TOS violation and thats it. A fleehack would be a cheat regardless of if it was against the TOS or not because it violates accepted standards on how the people who play ffxi consider the game should be played.

The proper analogy is like people who call filesharing "stealing" when its actually "copyright infringement".

It is important that people understand the meaning of words or else they loose their meaning.

[Lordwafik]

Well if this thread taught me one thing. Masteraga is an idiot.

You know, even if people recognize plugins as a cheat that doesn't mean they don't use it nor are hypocritical for using it.

I think most coke addicts realize what they're doing is illegal, but it's not like they think "oh shit ya I never knew this was illegal and people don't like it, I'll stop doing it then."

All the people in the thread have been saying plugins are a cheat, not "I'm holier than you and don't use cheats like you." They haven't been saying you shouldn't do it, or they don't do it, or that they look down on you for doing it. Just giving the label that they are cheats. The fact that you're so bent on them not being cheats make you look ridiculous.

You seriously have to be one of the most ignorant person I've seen on this forum (along with lolgrunion and that vivi guy.)

Going by his logic, a treadmill is cheating if you're training for a marathon.

[Remembrance]

Dear Jesus, you are ignorant.

No need to bring Jesus into it. And why with the namecalling on such a person?

The only that can save you is divine intervention.

Yes, using windower with its base functionality is not cheating as we have been defining it, but it is a violation of the terms of service without a doubt.

There is no difference between what SE thinks of plugins and the base functionality of the windower, the only differences is your moral standpoint and the definitions of cheat you wish to use.

We aren't judging you, we are stating fact. If you feel like using certain definitions of cheat, both windower and its plugins are cheats.

cheat:

5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

Incindentally, did I ever state that I think that using the windower, or plugins are or not cheats, or was that an assumption on the part of the readers?

~nyow~

Uh, yes?

Most people will continue to use windower, as it has a lot of useful tools that enhance gameplay, without cheating. Tools such as:

TParty: Can see the TP of other party members. This one should be an obvious way to avoid the annoying calls that people will have.
Distance: Useful for pulling at max distance (24.9, iirc) for those of us without shadows. Good way to Gauge the "Sweet Spot", and not just for ranged attacks. You ever play Bard or Corsair where people just wont line up like they should? Using Distance, I can hit the BLU in my Static with Evokers, and not hit the poor PUP unless he is not paying attention.
Windowed Mode: So I can look stuff up online such as recipes.
The ability to use a Dual Head setup: Fairly Fragging Obvious.

Are people seriously saying that a the Distance Plugin is a cheat?

^_____________^dumbfuck

[Devek]

Well if this thread taught me one thing. Masteraga is an idiot.

You know, even if people recognize plugins as a cheat that doesn't mean they don't use it nor are hypocritical for using it.

I think most coke addicts realize what they're doing is illegal, but it's not like they think "oh shit ya I never knew this was illegal and people don't like it, I'll stop doing it then."

All the people in the thread have been saying plugins are a cheat, not "I'm holier than you and don't use cheats like you." They haven't been saying you shouldn't do it, or they don't do it, or that they look down on you for doing it. Just giving the label that they are cheats. The fact that you're so bent on them not being cheats make you look ridiculous.

You seriously have to be one of the most ignorant person I've seen on this forum (along with lolgrunion and that vivi guy.)

Going by his logic, a treadmill is cheating if you're training for a marathon.

I use a heartrate monitor when I train for a run. =)

[Hyjynx]

You can argue semantics but you won't change a thing

If the majority of players were against tparty and windower you guys might have a point.. Windower is simply a TOS violation and thats it. A fleehack would be a cheat regardless of if it was against the TOS or not because it violates accepted standards on how the people who play ffxi consider the game should be played.

The proper analogy is like people who call filesharing "stealing" when its actually "copyright infringement".

It is important that people understand the meaning of words or else they loose their meaning.

Dev you are also smoking crack but if you want to go that route and say its simply a TOS violation then:

Cheat
v.intr.

1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

The TOS is a set of rules that we all agreed to follow. So by your definition, anything that we do which is against the TOS... IS CHEATING.

[aurik]

No, the ToS isn't a set of rules for the game. It's the legal terms which you have to agree to in order to enter into a service contract, which allows you access to POL.

There is no explicit formal code as to what constitutes cheating; one could argue that anything that the SE servers accepts (including exploiting player movement code, bot-assisted targetting and claiming) is valid. We as the players have come to a common understanding that certain things are permissable, and certain things are not. Of course we don't all agree on the finer points...

[Devek]

Dev you are also smoking crack but if you want to go that route and say its simply a TOS violation then:

Cheat
v.intr.

1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

The TOS is a set of rules that we all agreed to follow. So by your definition, anything that we do which is against the TOS... IS CHEATING.

So if I go to lower jueno and start shouting "NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER" am I cheating at ffxi? Aurik hit the nail on the head on that one.

[Ksandra]

You can argue semantics but you won't change a thing

If the majority of players were against tparty and windower you guys might have a point.. Windower is simply a TOS violation and thats it. A fleehack would be a cheat regardless of if it was against the TOS or not because it violates accepted standards on how the people who play ffxi consider the game should be played.

The proper analogy is like people who call filesharing "stealing" when its actually "copyright infringement".

It is important that people understand the meaning of words or else they loose their meaning.

This isn't really semantics though.

Only example I can think of that would go with what you're saying is this:

example 1:

A teacher is giving out a test and for whatever reason a student gets ahold of the test answers the day before. He studies the answers and voila gets a 100% on his test.

I think most would say he cheated.

example 2:

A teacher is giving out a test and for whatever reason a student gets ahold of the test answers the day before. He makes copies of the test answers and gives a copy to each of the students. Next day 22/24 of the students had memorized the test answers and got 100% on their test.

I would hope that in example 2 you would still say they all cheated.

It doesn't take rocket science to know for the most part students don't like tests. And I worked in a school (and was a student in school for that matter) long enough to know that many (not all) students would study those answers had they been given the opportunity.

For sure you could say the teacher is impart to blame for not keeping his/her answers secure enough. But that doesn't change the fact that the class cheated, even though the majority wanted to.

It's not just about accepted standards of the populace (do you think any student would say "no" to getting an open book test over a closed book one?) but the standards created by the institution/business/etc. in question.

A teacher may say that open-books are ok for any test given at their school, and then it wouldn't be cheating. But if a teacher says you can't use your book during a test, and someone looks through theirs when the teacher isn't looking it's cheating, no matter how many students try to do it and want to do it.

[Devek]

If we lived in a society where taking advantage of a test by having the test answers ahead of time was a good thing and was actually encouraged it wouldn't be cheating. If we lived in a society that might consider being able to pull such a thing off without getting caught a certain sort of skill it wouldn't be cheating.

We don't live in such a society. If you broke the rules to pass all your test through college we believe you committed a sort of fraud to get the diploma from that institution that you didn't deserve. If a school has a large percentage of cheaters it actually taints the value of a diploma from said school and directly hurts the other people going there by lowering the value of the diploma they have.

[S N K]

Well if this thread taught me one thing. Masteraga is an idiot.

[Ksandra]

If we lived in a society where taking advantage of a test by having the test answers ahead of time was a good thing and was actually encouraged it wouldn't be cheating. If we lived in a society that might consider being able to pull such a thing off without getting caught a certain sort of skill it wouldn't be cheating.

We don't live in such a society. If you broke the rules to pass all your test through college we believe you committed a sort of fraud to get the diploma from that institution that you didn't deserve. If a school has a large percentage of cheaters it actually taints the value of a diploma from said school and directly hurts the other people going there by lowering the value of the diploma they have.

That's only one definition of cheating though. If you follow the dictionary definition one of the points is "to violate rules or regulations"

An event doesn't have to fall under all definitions to be considered a cheat, but if it can fall under one definition it can be labelled as one. Getting answers on a test is a violation of school rules. Equally, using third party programs is a violation of SE's rules/regulations for the game, and can be classified as cheating.

Of course this doesn't mean you have to point fingers at people and say "you suck you cheat for using TPparty." But a horse is a horse is a horse. Doesn't make it disgusting for knowing it's name, but it doesn't mean you have to ignore it's name for what it is either.

[Devek]

I don't see how the dictionary.com meaning of cheating is even of any authority or meaningful. I went ahead and checked it out and it sites the American Heritage Dictionary.. which is cool I suppose but the meaning you guys are getting from it is misleading in my opinion.

I like to use princeton university as my source for definitions. You can see their site at http://wordnet.princeton.edu/

Noun
# S: (n) cheat, cheating (a deception for profit to yourself)

I don't really see how I am using deception to gain a profit from tparty.

Verb
# S: (v) cheat, rip off, chisel (deprive somebody of something by deceit) "The con-man beat me out of $50"; "This salesman ripped us off!"; "we were cheated by their clever-sounding scheme"; "They chiseled me out of my money"

I don't see how I am taking anything that belonged to someone else through deceit with tparty.

# S: (v) cheat, chouse, shaft, screw, chicane, jockey (defeat someone in an expectation through trickery or deceit)

This is where the card game analogy kind of fits.. but once again I don't see how tparty fits.

# S: (v) cheat, chisel (engage in deceitful behavior; practice trickery or fraud) "Who's chiseling on the side?"

# S: (v) cheat on, cheat, cuckold, betray, wander (be sexually unfaithful to one's partner in marriage) "She cheats on her husband"; "Might her husband be wandering?"

Adjective

# S: (adj) adulterous, cheating, two-timing (not faithful to a spouse or lover) "adulterous husbands and wives"; "a two-timing boyfriend"

# S: (adj) cheating, dirty, foul, unsporting, unsportsmanlike (violating accepted standards or rules) "a dirty fighter"; "used foul means to gain power"; "a nasty unsporting serve"; "fined for unsportsmanlike behavior"

This is the meaning of cheating that is most valid to this discussion and especially in the scenario of a card game.

[Thalion]

I remember when they changed the ToS and said monopolization was now against ToS.

/point Sky, oh look, they turn a blind eye to rmt whoring Ulli/Faust etc.

The problem was in how they defined Monopolizing. Someone in my LS had the discussion with a GM on this and they said unless the person claimed the NM to be theirs and were trying to tell you to leave, OR they were preventing you from gaining access (he said a line of Galka) then they weren't "Monopolizing" just camping. This change they can say, you've been here for 3 weeks, no one stays in one place 24/7 for 3 weeks, so we THINK you're up to something and we can band you for it.

I wonder if we word it differently like something to the effect of "They are preventing us from gaining access to fighting Byakko/Kirin by camping and killing ulli 24/7 even when all their members have the stone."

[MrLahey]

So if I go to lower jueno and start shouting "NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER" am I cheating at ffxi? Aurik hit the nail on the head on that one.

All cheating is violation of the ToS.
But, not all violations of the ToS are cheating.

Which pretty much sums it up.

[shinobi_tabi]

if you do not see TParty, Distance Plug-in as a cheat...
then you obviously have not been playing on ps2 or x-box where you can't use those cheats!
windower in of itself is not that bad to be considered a cheat, even though real cheats do stem from it, but SE obviously did not want you surfing the net and playing 'xi at the same time because you can't on other platforms.
Saying o you could play on ps2 and surf net on your pc at the same time is dumb excuse for saying windower is ok. Go do it then and stop cheating via windower. go buy ps2 to play on and use your pc to internet if you need to internet and play at the same time so badly.
Vent/TS is definately easier to communicate on then typing...but if you wanted to do that so bad you could pick up the telephone...

[Hyjynx]

Of course this doesn't mean you have to point fingers at people and say "you suck you cheat for using TPparty." But a horse is a horse is a horse. Doesn't make it disgusting for knowing it's name, but it doesn't mean you have to ignore it's name for what it is either.

Why is that so hard to understand lol.

[Devek]

Of course this doesn't mean you have to point fingers at people and say "you suck you cheat for using TPparty." But a horse is a horse is a horse. Doesn't make it disgusting for knowing it's name, but it doesn't mean you have to ignore it's name for what it is either.

Why is that so hard to understand lol.

Its hard to understand because you're in the misguided minority trying to judge the majority for doing something very acceptable and normal.

You can't put your average person in the same category of gildupers, pos/flee hackers, 0wait crafters, etc.

There are people who think looking up quest information online is cheating also, but until the people who actually play the game agree it is not so.

[Ksandra]

I don't see how the dictionary.com meaning of cheating is even of any authority or meaningful. I went ahead and checked it out and it sites the American Heritage Dictionary.. which is cool I suppose but the meaning you guys are getting from it is misleading in my opinion.

I like to use princeton university as my source for definitions. You can see their site at http://wordnet.princeton.edu/

Noun
# S: (n) cheat, cheating (a deception for profit to yourself)

I don't really see how I am using deception to gain a profit from tparty.

Verb
# S: (v) cheat, rip off, chisel (deprive somebody of something by deceit) "The con-man beat me out of $50"; "This salesman ripped us off!"; "we were cheated by their clever-sounding scheme"; "They chiseled me out of my money"

I don't see how I am taking anything that belonged to someone else through deceit with tparty.

# S: (v) cheat, chouse, shaft, screw, chicane, jockey (defeat someone in an expectation through trickery or deceit)

This is where the card game analogy kind of fits.. but once again I don't see how tparty fits.

# S: (v) cheat, chisel (engage in deceitful behavior; practice trickery or fraud) "Who's chiseling on the side?"

# S: (v) cheat on, cheat, cuckold, betray, wander (be sexually unfaithful to one's partner in marriage) "She cheats on her husband"; "Might her husband be wandering?"

Adjective

# S: (adj) adulterous, cheating, two-timing (not faithful to a spouse or lover) "adulterous husbands and wives"; "a two-timing boyfriend"

# S: (adj) cheating, dirty, foul, unsporting, unsportsmanlike (violating accepted standards or rules) "a dirty fighter"; "used foul means to gain power"; "a nasty unsporting serve"; "fined for unsportsmanlike behavior"

This is the meaning of cheating that is most valid to this discussion and especially in the scenario of a card game.

I like webster's more and even they say:

"1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>"


LOL funny thing is looking at different dictionaries, some have even started adding video games into it. XD Oxford:

2 [v] ~ (at sth) to act in a dishonest way in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game, a competition, an exam, etc.: He cheats at cards. You’re not allowed to look at the answers—that’s cheating. Anyone caught cheating will be automatically disqualified from the examination.

3 [C] (computing) a program you can use to move immediately to the next stage of a computer game without needing to play the game: There’s a cheat you can use to get to the next level.

Cambridge:

3 [C] a collection of instructions or special information which someone can use to help them play a computer game more successfully:
the latest game/desktop cheats
cheat codes

Encarta:

2. intransitive verb break rules to gain advantage: to break the rules in a game, examination, or contest, in an attempt to gain an unfair advantage

Ok I'm done. XD dinner time.

This shows me at least that yes breaking the rules of the tos (i.e. the game as SE set in the rules/regulations) is cheating.

fooooooooooooooood!

[Devek]

But SE doesn't have the authority to set rules in that context. All the TOS is a document that lists thing that SE could cancel my access to PlayOnline for.

Until tparty is against accepted standards and rules for the players it isn't cheating and never will be.

You seem to miss the distinction and what cheating really implies.

If I play a game of monopoly with my friends and its accepted that we can steal from the bank if no one is looking, it isn't cheating for me to rob the bank if I get the chance to do so even though its against the published rules of monopoly.

If I play a game of monopoly with my friends and we agree that robbing the bank is wrong and I do it anyway than I have become a distrustful and deceitful cheater who people probably won't want to play monopoly with.

It boils down to character and reputation and I'll be damned if a small minority of people are going to say my trustfulness is tainted because I use a program that does something everyone agrees SE should implement anyway...