TOS change

[S N K]

It boils down to character and reputation and I'll be damned if a small minority of people are going to say my trustfulness is tainted because I use a program that does something everyone agrees SE should implement anyway...

But well...SE doesn't agree with everyone else about that so that point is kinda moot.

[Devek]

It boils down to character and reputation and I'll be damned if a small minority of people are going to say my trustfulness is tainted because I use a program that does something everyone agrees SE should implement anyway...

But well...SE doesn't agree with everyone else about that so that point is kinda moot.

That makes them bad at business. You always want to give their customers what they want.. it makes them happy and helps further profits.

I think a lot of people who play ffxi forget they are paying customers and deserve respect. If it wasn't for us SE wouldn't exist and if it wasn't for SE we would just be playing a different game or maybe be better off with social lives.

[Ksandra]

It boils down to character and reputation and I'll be damned if a small minority of people are going to say my trustfulness is tainted because I use a program that does something everyone agrees SE should implement anyway...

But well...SE doesn't agree with everyone else about that so that point is kinda moot.

That makes them bad at business. You always want to give their customers what they want.. it makes them happy and helps further profits.

I work at a bank now, should I just hand out all the money in my drawer since that's what the customers want? lol

That's a really bad statement to say.

Besides we're not arguing over whether SE is a good or bad business. They don't have to be considered a "good" business to get to decide their rules. It's their product, they can decide what is allowed or not allowed.


Don't get me wrong, I use windower (without plugins) too. I'm not saying this is not something you should fight SE about. For obvious reasons, if there's something a customer doesn't like about the product then they should be allowed to bring that up to the creators in hopes it gets fixed. However, this does not mean the creators have to follow what the customer wants, and it doesn't mean the customer should be allowed to do it just because they want to without getting punished if they get caught.

I think a lot of people who play ffxi forget they are paying customers and deserve respect. If it wasn't for us SE wouldn't exist and if it wasn't for SE we would just be playing a different game or maybe be better off with social lives.

You also seem to be forgetting FFXI isn't the only game SE makes. I know many people who hate FFXI. Most of my friends back home play WoW and either played FFXI and didn't like it or have no desire to touch it. But all of them are excited and have preordered FFXII. If FFXI went down I don't think SE has to worry about breaking as a company.

[Xaru]

That makes them bad at business. You always want to give their customers what they want.. it makes them happy and helps further profits.

Heh, I worked in retail a looong time ago and the actual philosophy tends to be "tell the customer what they want, then give it to them"

[Devek]

I work at a bank now, should I just hand out all the money in my drawer since that's what the customers want? lol

That's a really bad statement to say.

But you do.. it is called interest. Obviously you can't just give all the money you have to whoever wants it or the bank would not exist at all and people need banks to exist and the services that they provide.

Banks balance the needs of their customers to be the most competitive in giving people what they want. Higher interest rates will attract customers but too high will cause the bank to collapse. Without banks it would be difficult for people to get loans to buy houses which is something a lot of bank customers want.

Besides we're not arguing over whether SE is a good or bad business. They don't have to be considered a "good" business to get to decide their rules. It's their product, they can decide what is allowed or not allowed.

This is exactly what we are arguing about. What line will SE have to cross before we stop playing?

[cassiraa]

This is exactly what we are arguing about. What line will SE have to cross before we stop playing?

/tell chime also shows that they're starting the right direction, taking the 3rd party applications and making them 1st party. If SE makes a sanctioned windower mode, Then I think most people would be happy.

As for what they could do to get us to stop playing? Ban everybody with Windower or find a way to permanently break the hook.dll or implement software that would semi-legally scan your computer for all applications running.

[Ksandra]

But you do.. it is called interest. Obviously you can't just give all the money you have to whoever wants it or the bank would not exist at all and people need banks to exist and the services that they provide.

Banks balance the needs of their customers to be the most competitive in giving people what they want. Higher interest rates will attract customers but too high will cause the bank to collapse. Without banks it would be difficult for people to get loans to buy houses which is something a lot of bank customers want.

That's exactly what SE has been doing. >.>; people wanted to raise chocobos they did it, people wanted jobs fixed, they're working on it, as cassira said they added the /tell chime which people seem to be loving. You can look on the expansions and updates as the games "interests" that they're giving extra to the customer.

However what you seem to be suggesting is they HAVE to give use everything all at once. You said it yourself too high interest (and all at once) would collapse the bank. Perhaps SE considers windower too high a risk atm and they'd rather give it to us bit by bit.

If you got a bank account and they gave you all the interest you'd ever get in the first month why would you stick with it two months after you got it all?

This is exactly what we are arguing about. What line will SE have to cross before we stop playing?[/quote]

[HAcoreRD]

Seriously, SE should try bnning players who use windower. Why? It'll kill FFXI (majority) and bring more people to PSU and WoW. Go ahead Square, make FFXI kill itself.

Only ban players using cheats that hurt people. I played on a PS2 for 2 1/2 years, The TP tool isn't a cheat, it let's you know if you can dump TP (if you're not in SC) or to hold TP.

Also surfing the web doesn't hurt. So I can look guides up. I have the CPU next to my PS2 so It's not like I couldn't before. Plus the tell sound lets me know some1's messaging me.

[Ungaga]

For some reason I can't stay connected to ffxi anymore with both my laptop and pc from my home network. Both systems run windower but the laptop constantly times out.
Anyone else noticing this or willing to test this?

Error code:FFX-4001
No response from the Final Fantasy XI server
Connection Timed Out
Press OK to shut down.

Sorry about late reply lol, was just reading through when i saw this.

I kept getting that message alot since about 1 month or so ago and now i cant even get onto FFXI because I "Cannot connect to lobby server" :/

[Kyreth]

That makes them bad at business. You always want to give their customers what they want.. it makes them happy and helps further profits.

I think a lot of people who play ffxi forget they are paying customers and deserve respect. If it wasn't for us SE wouldn't exist and if it wasn't for SE we would just be playing a different game or maybe be better off with social lives.

By that measure, the nice RMT'er next to you 24/7ing Ulli should be getting exactly what he wants...lots of stuff to grab so he can get Gil to sell.

Every time someone says "always want to given their customers what they want" it makes me die a little inside. Just a wee bit.

Anyone here who worked tech support or customer service knows that often what the customer wants is the worst thing possible for everyone else and the maximum (extraordinarily so) benefit for them.

Fact: If it isn't normally accessible in the game to the players, and you do something to the game in order to make it so, you are cheating. Whether the level of cheat is even to the point of "give a shit" is another matter entirely- but it's cheating whether you POShack across a zone, fishbot, or have a measuring tool to easily negate the whole "find a sweet spot" thing.

Given, the third I think tends to fall below the level of "I care" for most folks, but S-E's level of tolerance is all that matters.

[Devek]

That makes them bad at business. You always want to give their customers what they want.. it makes them happy and helps further profits.

I think a lot of people who play ffxi forget they are paying customers and deserve respect. If it wasn't for us SE wouldn't exist and if it wasn't for SE we would just be playing a different game or maybe be better off with social lives.

By that measure, the nice RMT'er next to you 24/7ing Ulli should be getting exactly what he wants...lots of stuff to grab so he can get Gil to sell.

Every time someone says "always want to given their customers what they want" it makes me die a little inside. Just a wee bit.

Anyone here who worked tech support or customer service knows that often what the customer wants is the worst thing possible for everyone else and the maximum (extraordinarily so) benefit for them.

Fact: If it isn't normally accessible in the game to the players, and you do something to the game in order to make it so, you are cheating. Whether the level of cheat is even to the point of "give a shit" is another matter entirely- but it's cheating whether you POShack across a zone, fishbot, or have a measuring tool to easily negate the whole "find a sweet spot" thing.

Given, the third I think tends to fall below the level of "I care" for most folks, but S-E's level of tolerance is all that matters.

The company I work for owns a rather large wireless ISP that services a few thousand customers in the rural parts around my state.

I don't work tech support per-se, but I get to personally deal with people who peg their connection with filesharing by throttling their connection or something cutting them off completely.

Those individual customers "want" to be able to run kazaa all day but MORE of our customers want cheap, reliable, and fast internet access. Due to technological limitations of 802.11 each tower can only provide maybe 6mbs shared between the customers on that tower.

I suppose we could build extra towers to have less customers/tower and make it so people could fireshare 24/7 but than our service would no longer be cheap and we would loose a lot of customers and eventually no longer exist at all. Without us most of our customers wouldn't have access to broadband internet and a few wouldn't even be able to get dialup.

Obviously things are always more complex than making each individual person happy

Its the same thing with the gilsellers.. they are paying customers also and I suppose they want free and easy gil to sell but MORE customers want them to GTFO and have left the game because of them.

Giving the customers what they want is never wrong when you look at the big picture.

If SE implemented tparty in FFXI I seriously doubt it would cause a single person to cancel their subscription and it might even cause a few people thinking about canceling their subscription to stay a little bit longer. It wouldn't even cost much to implement, the data is already there so it would maybe take a day or two of a single programmer's time and be more worthwhile than some of the new additions

I for one was very happy with the new tell notifications.

[Plow]

Devek are you from Kansas?

And I totally agree, it goes along with the interest things too. Every little thing they add that makes 1 single person go "ya know what maybe they're gonna make it better," and keep their account a little longer, is more money in their pocket.

[mastergara]

Well it sure it nice to see the direction this thread went while I was not about. I seem to have people against me in here for reasons of their stupidity. I love it! :D

Not once did I state my opinions on if they were or were not cheats. I inferred it, and everyone took their beliefs from there.

Lemme address each one of these statements directed at me, and not conducive to the discussion.

My,my, you do a wonderful job of grandstanding, don't you?

If you are suggesting that the point of me saying things is to impress people, it really isnt. My point is to stay amused, and for the most part, this thread succeeded in doing so.

We aren't judging you, we are stating fact.

^_____________^dumbfuck

Within the same post. Riiiiiiiiiight. Take whatever stance you want on this, but the bandwagon seems to be that if someone has a view that isnt yours, well then, they are clearly a bad bad person, and instead of using logic and a clear well thought out discussion, profanity and insults reign. I do appreciate further proof of the basest human reaction.

Well if this thread taught me one thing. Masteraga is an idiot.

See above reaction. And incidentally, if you really want to insult someone, you may want to double check your spelling.

And now back to the discussion:

Its hard to understand because you're in the misguided minority trying to judge the majority for doing something very acceptable and normal.

You can't put your average person in the same category of gildupers, pos/flee hackers, 0wait crafters, etc.

There are people who think looking up quest information online is cheating also, but until the people who actually play the game agree it is not so.

That is a clear and concise statement. One devoid of any form of person attack, while presenting the thought in a readable, easy to understand fashion.

Most of the people in this thread who have labeled me as.... well, whatever they want to, have a different opinion on this then I, and that is really their prerogative.

My point is this:
-Some of the people want to say that "All hidden information that isnt shown on the screen should be kept hidden" and using my outlandish (intended that way) example of <pettp> was a (futile) attempt to show it as such.
-Most people who say "Everything is black and white" were also saying "Windower is OK, but the plugins are bad" which really counteracts itself in the same statement. If you choose to share your opinion, having good reason to back it up makes for a better discussion, other then "OMGz! U R DUM CUZ U DUN TINK WHUT EYE DEW!!! LOLz!!!"
-My mockery of others here has more to do with poor grammar, inaccuracies, and poor conflicting thoughts then anything else. I suppose someone will pop up with a statement that I am an elitist for such, and I fully expect it. Would not be the first time someone in these forums hath been accused of such. Then again, I think it is truly too much to ask to have a reasonable discussion when there is a morally charged issue such as being able to use a ruler, or see some additional information.

Anycase. I thank people who put forth their views and opinions in this thread. I believe it was an excellent discussion on the Terms of Service, and how it can be interpreted in many different ways.

May your day be amusing. :D

~nyow~

[Remembrance]

Fuck, I thought you left :(

[Rocl]

Nobody will ever care enough to spell your name right Mastergaga

[mastergara]

They care enough to attempt to insult me directly. Makes me giggle :D

[Rocl]

mastergaho, you're on Leviathan isn't that the same server as the Claustrum melee SMN?

If so, THE PROSECUTION RESTS YOUR HONOUR

[mastergara]

mastergaho, you're on Leviathan isn't that the same server as the Claustrum melee SMN?

If so, THE PROSECUTION RESTS YOUR HONOUR

Ooooh! Lighthearted witty banter! I do so enjoy this

I object on the grounds of guilt by association!

And I didnt know that someone had unlocked that staff on Levi. I guess I will have to track them down, and make a new friend

As for my server, the most exciting thing that goes on with our drama are the recent Kirin-burn videos. I guess that shows that we like it hard and fast. Was there a contest to see who could kill him the quickest lately?

[Damen]

There's no such thing as 'cheating' or 'breaking the laws' if the laws/rules aren't enforced.

http://www.ahajokes.com/stupid_laws.html

SE is banning the botters/hackers, but not windower/plugin/dual box users(yet). Everyone is getting into semantics and definition of the word cheat and what it really means (which is subjected to individual perception). It's quite rediculous. Point being, the only people who can call windower/plugins cheating is SE. And until SE starts enforcing those law/rules/ToS, then it's not cheating despite what your technical and personal definition/interpretation of cheating is. Call it whatever you want, but until there's a massive banning of windower users, it's not cheating/illegal.

[Lordwafik]

Get the fuck back to allakhazam if you're trying to come here and argue that Tparty is cheating. Don't forget to call GM on fishbots on your way out as you skill up your lvl55 clothcraft.

Grats on ruining a topic where you confuse an athlete(adventurer) using a treadmill/exersize bike(tparty, distance) with using steroids(mrargus).

Disney was wrong, It's not a small world after all, It's a dumb world.