TOS change

[mikazuki]

the first line about monitor use of account strictly means account, not your computer; however:
"any method permitted by applicable law to verify your compliance"
this means if it is permitted they may add an application monitor to the client software, i'm going to guess it is permitted since blizzard successfully included that device with WoW.
if anyone has doubts about this then make a customer service call to SE, they are obliged to answer (and honestly) if you ask them about the wording of the new ToS. if anyone does this please transcribe and post!

the implication is more likely to be the release of a supported windower than mass-banning, but toleration of windower will probably be the SE route.

[Artemuller]

the implication is more likely to be the release of a supported windower than mass-banning, but toleration of windower will probably be the SE route.

I sure hope so cuz at least on my pc in full screen mode it looks 3rd world style <__< anyways yeah if someone can talk to support or gm who can clearly interpret the update message with more sense that would help.

[mastergara]

Are people seriously saying that a the Distance Plugin is a cheat?

I imagine these are the same people that drive exactly the speed limit, always stop completely at Stop signs, and never lie about their age or weight. Such morally high people would also be glad to submit any and all information about their computer and standard usage to any government agency for undisclosed reasons.

As for the "PS2 users cant use it, so it must be a cheat" logic, xbox users have added functionality and graphics, so they must be cheating too. I would really like to see a solid, well thought out reason as to why these plugins give windower users a completely unfair advantage over other users.

And for the person who is NM camping, and cant claim with flash: Poor Baby. Truly tragic that you didnt get the claim. I am sure that the other person had the distance plugin, and that gave him an unfair advantage. The only unfair advantage to you. I am sure if you had that plugin, you would have gotten the claim, since that is the only difference between you and them. They also had time to run to the proper distance, stop, and cast their spell. Or they were closer to the spawn point then you. Lets apply Occam's Razor to that one, shall we? ^^/

[DoliantheBard]

Are people seriously saying that a the Distance Plugin is a cheat?

I imagine these are the same people that drive exactly the speed limit, always stop completely at Stop signs, and never lie about their age or weight. Such morally high people would also be glad to submit any and all information about their computer and standard usage to any government agency for undisclosed reasons.

As for the "PS2 users cant use it, so it must be a cheat" logic, xbox users have added functionality and graphics, so they must be cheating too. I would really like to see a solid, well thought out reason as to why these plugins give windower users a completely unfair advantage over other users.

And for the person who is NM camping, and cant claim with flash: Poor Baby. Truly tragic that you didnt get the claim. I am sure that the other person had the distance plugin, and that gave him an unfair advantage. The only unfair advantage to you. I am sure if you had that plugin, you would have gotten the claim, since that is the only difference between you and them. They also had time to run to the proper distance, stop, and cast their spell. Or they were closer to the spawn point then you. Lets apply Occam's Razor to that one, shall we? ^^/

Unless unless the program is a standard part of FFXI, it is a cheat. That means windower and any other plugins no matter how mundane they are. No matter how much you rationalize its use, it is a cheat. That said, if cheating on a video game is the worst thing you've ever done you might want to consider applying for sainthood.

[mastergara]

Unless unless the program is a standard part of FFXI, it is a cheat. That means windower and any other plugins no matter how mundane they are. No matter how much you rationalize its use, it is a cheat. That said, if cheating on a video game is the worst thing you've ever done you might want to consider applying for sainthood.

Really, I am just sick of people whining and blaming Windower and the plugins for things. On that same topic, is using an emulator to play old NES/SNES/<insertconsolehere> games cheating? I mean, these platforms were not a standard part of the game, so they clearly must be cheating as well, right? And non-standard drivers for my video card (like the omega drivers for ATI) must be cheats as well.

SE has deemed that they dont want to put forth any additional effort in plugins, nor an extensible interface. Other MMOs like WoW have implemented it to make it work within reasonable limits, and have had it work well. So.... what is the major difference there?

Windower does not make me any better or worse of a player or person. Actions towards other people really make that difference. As for sainthood, my application is already pending. They just have to run the standard backround check to make sure my smiting was all in the name of the proper god(s).

[Fng]

On that same topic, is using an emulator to play old NES/SNES/<insertconsolehere> games cheating?

last time I checked an emulator is single person.


Do you think NIN/DRK w/ fire resist, enimity, haste, def - damage, HP gears would really shine on a PS2? Or does that really require a PC + /console exec ****.txt abalities?

[mastergara]

last time I checked an emulator is single person.

Sure it is. But isnt running it in a state that was not intended originally clearly cheating?

Do you think NIN/DRK w/ fire resist, enimity, haste, def - damage, HP gears would really shine on a PS2? Or does that really require a PC + /console exec ****.txt abalities?

Rukenshin used to use several different macro keys to change into different gear sets. Check out his LJ for more information. The extended windower macros make it so you can bind a single key to do more then just 6 lines. Be careful though. Really is cheating there.

[TsingTao]

Do you think NIN/DRK w/ fire resist, enimity, haste, def - damage, HP gears would really shine on a PS2? Or does that really require a PC + /console exec ****.txt abalities?

No, it probably wouldn't work near as well. He'd claim faster on a PS2 though.

HAX!

[Fng]

He doesn't bind the key... he actually has the /console exec NinDD.txt in the macro.. read the LJ post..

Your point about using an emulator is mute... those are single player games. Are you cheating yourself? I'm confused.

You think he could tank Tia on a PS2 as well as he does on Window'd pc + /console execs?

[miokomioko]

On that same topic, is using an emulator to play old NES/SNES/<insertconsolehere> games cheating?

If it makes the gameplay easier in any way than how the developers intended... such as being able to save at any time, or being able to speed up time. So, yes, it is if you use those features. Just like if you use TParty to make SCing easier, or whatever other plugins that give windower users an upper hand vs people without it.

But whether Windower is "cheating" or not isn't really the argument here. Some people think it is, some people think it isn't... but, Square Enix, the people in charge think it is, so I don't understand why people bother argueing about it.

[mastergara]

He doesn't bind the key... he actually has the /console exec NinDD.txt in the macro.. read the LJ post..

Riiiiight. Since using alt+key isnt binding atall. Gogo excellent logic.

Your point about using an emulator is mute... those are single player games. Are you cheating yourself? I'm confused.

I didnt know I could be hushed about a point. I guess it would be moot if it didnt have meaning. But a little reading comprehension, and a bit of thinking would lead you to follow this thought: "Cheating is doing something that was not intended in the initial design."

I am attempting to show (as futile as it may be) that simply because a program adds functionality that is useful, does not make it a cheat. Or does that make you mute?

You think he could tank Tia on a PS2 as well as he does on Window'd pc + /console execs?

Had a mate who transitioned between the PS2 and a PC. He was griping that the controls for mob targetting were not the same between the 2. After a while, he got used to it, and was able to perform better on the PC then on the PS2. And he mentioned it looks better on the PC then the PS2. Please reference the above statement about additional functionality.

I realize that attempting to prove a point to someone who is stuck in their myopic view on things is indeed insanity, and a waste of time. You are welcome to believe as you do on this, but is your reasoning that these are not cheats a moral one, or are you jealous that this functionality is not within your gameplay?

[Fng]

Well you've made it clear that my grammer sucks. You are a winnar!

You've also made it clear you have no idea how windower and the bind key vs calling a script works.

[MrLahey]

last time I checked an emulator is single person.

Sure it is. But isnt running it in a state that was not intended originally clearly cheating?

So Windower = cheating then. GG.

[mastergara]

Oh snap. I guess I got served, since my extended macros work, and you are still arguing your mute point.

Interesting note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggcorn

[solsovly]

last time I checked an emulator is single person.

Sure it is. But isnt running it in a state that was not intended originally clearly cheating?

So Windower = cheating then. GG.

Could NIN tanking be considered cheating?

More at 11

[Aodh]

Simply, windower itself does nothing outside the original function of the game. Just running windower without any plugins does not allow someone to do anything they couldn't already do with a PS2/XB and a PC (i.e. browsing the web while playing).

"Cheats" come in two forms, passive and active. Passive cheats include things like Parsers which do not have any effect on game play, but allow you to do something you either couldn't before, or would be unreasonable to expect. You could add all the hits and misses and calculate without a parser, but it's not reasonable. TParty is the same way in that you could spam TP macro's or watch for your partner's TP. You'll still WS at the same time, just through a different communication medium.

Active cheats are self explanatory, POS, Argus, Flee-tool. Things that change the environment and break the rules employed by the game.

Emulators are passive by nature because they recreate the original including rules. Changes to the rules become cheats.

[loial]

Error code:FFX-4001
No response from the Final Fantasy XI server
Connection Timed Out
Press OK to shut down.

I've been getting this the last 3-4 nights now. My two accounts get booted overnight for some reason now.

[quotePassive cheats include things like Parsers which do not have any effect on game play, but allow you to do something you either couldn't before...[/quote]
Watch out. The naysayers will claim: "Well, now that you parse, you can analyze that data to figure out which gear/spell/etc is better in certain situations. Therefore you have an unfair advantage now."

It all depends how far you want to take it. Technically, screenshots are supposed to only be taken using the in-game function which places a FFXI copyright in the bottom right-hand corner of the screen. Those pictures were not designed to be altered by players.

So, everyone here with a sig that isn't the in-game screenshot picture that is 800x600 is therefore "cheating" in the eyes of SE and some posters here. You are doing something that the designers did not intend.

Ridiculous notion isn't it?

[Aodh]

Passive cheats include things like Parsers which do not have any effect on game play, but allow you to do something you either couldn't before...

Watch out. The naysayers will claim: "Well, now that you parse, you can analyze that data to figure out which gear/spell/etc is better in certain situations. Therefore you have an unfair advantage now."

So you didn't even finish reading that sentence let-alone the rest of the paragraph?

Passive cheats include things like Parsers which do not have any effect on game play, but allow you to do something you either couldn't before, or would be unreasonable to expect.

It IS possible to analyze information without a parser. You would just need to add up all the information from every hit of every party member noting things like crits and WSs. Unless someone is a speed freak, they most likely wouldn't be able to keep up, so it's unreasonable to expect, but is possible.

[miokomioko]

isnt running it in a state that was not intended originally clearly cheating?

Not unless it makes the game easier, like I stated, with the use of features not usually available. (i.e. save states & speed increase in the case of emulators, TParty & Distance in the case of Windower). In this case, you might mean that running it in a state that was not intended, aka: illegally copying it, is... illegal, not "cheating."

I don't know why this is still a debate, probably because people keep making unrelated, stupid comments. Windower with no plugins does not give any upper hand against those without it. The end. That's all there is to it. Just because it's in violation of the Terms of Use contract doesn't mean it's cheating at the game. No in-game activities become easier because you are able to use your computer while the game is running, which is the case for all PS2 and Xbox360 users with computers, so it evens the playing field for those who don't have multiple computers to run the game on and browse the internet. Shit, even GMs consistantly tell players to look information up on fan sites.

The only thing giving windower negative connotations is its commonly used pluins which do make the game easier and the fact that it makes running blatent cheating tools, such as pos/argus/etc, possible.

It all depends how far you want to take it. Technically, screenshots are supposed to only be taken using the in-game function which places a FFXI copyright in the bottom right-hand corner of the screen. Those pictures were not designed to be altered by players.

So, everyone here with a sig that isn't the in-game screenshot picture that is 800x600 is therefore "cheating" in the eyes of SE and some posters here.

No, it's not "cheating in their eyes" in any way. It has nothing to do with the gameplay. It might be 'breach of contract,' but the existance of screenshots with no copyright stamped on it is also not illegal considering copyrighted material is not required to have a copyright symbol anymore (since 1886).

Stop confusing "breach of Terms of Use/User Agreement contracts" with "cheating." We all know how subjective the latter can be, but I like to see it as rather cut and dry. Game easier = cheating. One last note, just because you think the game was designed poorly, or the people you're playing with are idiots, does not justify your cheating.

[Remembrance]

Swear some people talk to hear their heads ring..

Windower and all its plugins are CHEATS. The functionality they provide fall under multiple definitions of the word cheat.

You personally thinking they are not cheats simply because you feel that functionality SHOULD be programmed into the game because it's in other games is comical. You can't redefine shit as you see fit simply because it doesn't fit your build, heh.

That all being said, I do agree that the functionality should be included in the game, and most would agree with that, but it doesn't change a damn thing in regards to the usage/Terms of service.

edit: mioko beat me =/