TOS change

[mastergara]

Not unless it makes the game easier

So you believe strongly in working harder, not smarter? Or is this another issue "I have higher morals"?

[Aodh]

Not unless it makes the game easier

So you believe strongly in working harder, not smarter? Or is this another issue "I have higher morals"?

Is it "Easier" or "Smarter" to POS across a zone to speed up travel time?

[mastergara]

Is it "Easier" or "Smarter" to POS across a zone to speed up travel time?

Honestly, I find it comical more then anything how people are bent out of shape about the Windower Plugins. POS "hacks" modify information being sent to the server. They lie to it. Lying is bad.

Once again, TParty just takes information that is already sent down to the client, and displays it. If SE had a Moral issue, they could remove the information that is not seen, and poof! Tparty gone.

Regardless of what I feel, people will decide that they are superior in their not-using it. Good for them. I think you actually brought up the point of active and passive. Fleetools, Speedhacks, etc etc modify the game. Distance, Tparty, Parsers, and Expwatch all show information, not modify the existing data.

Do I think SE should have a windowed version? Sure.
Do I think it is useful to show the TP of other members? Sure.
Do I think it is neat to be able to see information that is possible to be parsed with pencil and paper? Sure.
Do I think people here are gonna keep debating this? Most likely.

Both sides of this debate have kept me amused while at work, so I say keep up the spirited discussion! :D

No one has answered if they have a moral issue with this, or they just want to drive within the speed limit, and never rip the tag off the matress.

And really, with more information that enables you to be a more productive member of something, would you really want to be an Ostrich to this information?

[miokomioko]

I was playing poker and my friend's hand was visible, it was right there, the cards were there begging to be looked at, so I looked. It wasn't cheating because they weren't hidden from me well enough.

[S N K]

And really, with more information that enables you to be a more productive member of something, would you really want to be an Ostrich to this information?

For some people who would prefer to keep their gameplay as *heh* pure as possible I would say yes. Being able to see and react to things people normally can't see without windower is slightly bending the rules of the game more in your favor. SE in their own silly head wanted the PC version of FFXI to be just like the PS2 Version which means they don't want PCs users to have advantages such as the ones you stated in your last post.

I don't care about the crap too much because it's all water under the bridge & there are more interesting things worth debating over...

~S N K

[mastergara]

I am gonna put words into someone else's mouth, since I dont have anything better to reply with

fixed :D

[S N K]

I am gonna put words into someone else's mouth, since I dont have anything better to reply with

fixed :D

I think miokomioko was trying to point out that in the same case of looking at someone's TP bars and knowing when they are ready to SC vs those who can't do that and have to spam TP Macros in PT chat is kind of cheating. Oh and for the record I don't use windower or any 3rd party software at all.

I've been playing this game since beta on PC and have not once been interested in 3rd party apps. I don't care that a lot of people I know use Fleetool, Windowers, Argus,Whatever just for some people like myself I really do not wish to take any chances on my character development getting hosed because I wanted to make my game easier then other players who are unable to see TP among other nice things windower has which SE really should add themselves.

[Hyjynx]

lol you guys are sitting here arguing the difference in shades of oranges.

Remembrance and Mioko are exactly correct. It doesnt matter what the fuck you think and how "not so bad" the windower is... as long as you use any function outside of simply playing FFXI in a window you are "cheating". It has nothing to do with your sense of morals its literally that black and white.

Morality only comes into play when you choose to do it or not.

[mastergara]

With an innacurate analogy. What I am waiting for them (those who sit on the other side of this debate with me) is that they believe they are in the moral high-ground on this, and that I should simply agree with them.

These are also the same people who would condemn me to their version of eternal torture for not believing in the same god as them.

So I shall continue to attempt to have a spirited debate with good information, and hopefully not have it degenerate into name-calling (wishful thinking, I know) as both sides state their views.

Pet TP does not show to you by default. You have to enter in a command to show it. Does using the <pettp> command make you a cheater? I mean, you are checking the cards of the person on the same team as you.

~nyow~

[Byrd]

And really, with more information that enables you to be a more productive member of something, would you really want to be an Ostrich to this information?

When that information is given to be by an unfair advantage that others don't have, yes, actually, I would prefer to be an ostrich. I have installed and later deleted both Distance and TParty plug ins. I determined that it bothered me to have information that there is no way for me to reasonably have w/o cheating.

If you've accepted this and are using it anyway, so be it. I really don't care, I don't think most people on this board do. But if you're claiming it's not cheating, I think that's what is driving this debate. Nobody cares if you use them. It's is cheating, however, and there is really no rational argument against this. Continuing to deny this is what drives this debate.

I still use Windower macros. I cheat by doing so. I *could* make a series of macros to do the exact same thing, but who wants to do that? Does that give me an unfair advantage over PS2 players? Yes. I've come to accept that, however, and I can live with that.

[Dalek]

Do you think NIN/DRK w/ fire resist, enimity, haste, def - damage, HP gears would really shine on a PS2? Or does that really require a PC + /console exec ****.txt abalities?

Rukenshin used to use several different macro keys to change into different gear sets. Check out his LJ for more information. The extended windower macros make it so you can bind a single key to do more then just 6 lines. Be careful though. Really is cheating there.

WHOOOOOOSH


Edit: decided to contribute something to this thread


I can see both sides of the argument but my personal stance is that it isn't "cheating".... thats too harsh of a word for the harmless stuff like windower and tparty, etc.

Its like when "Jim" kills someone, he is a criminal because he is breaking the law. "Bob" - who jaywalks is also breaking the law. The difference is you'd get laughed at by anyone if you tried to call a Bob a criminal lol. Its been beaten into the ground already but its the best comparison I could think of at the moment. If you disagree, go fuck yourself :D and go split hairs somewhere else.

[Kyreth]

The only real RMT that piss me off are the ones at ullikummi, and the ones that /sh all day trying to sell drops from al'tieu... And more so because of SE's attempts to stop them (16 hour respawn on Ullikummi reported, wtf?). Everywhere is botted back/forth by NA/JP linkshells.

Great. If it detects and kills off linkshell botters too, more power to them. S-E needs dedicated staff to watch/kill cockblocking efforts by RMT, and code in the game to snuff out game clients that are hacked. The sooner, the better for the real players.

[miokomioko]

Pet TP does not show to you by default. You have to enter in a command to show it. Does using the <pettp> command make you a cheater? I mean, you are checking the cards of the person on the same team as you.

I didn't know the <pettp> command was a 3rd party program.

[S N K]

With an innacurate analogy. What I am waiting for them (those who sit on the other side of this debate with me) is that they believe they are in the moral high-ground on this, and that I should simply agree with them.

I don't think it's so much as wanting you to agree insofar as to stop and think seriously about what you're saying in terms of this discussion. SE states that the use of 3rd party software for FFXI is prohibited and considered unbalancing for the game. In short, windower is cheating but it's not extreme like argus or fleetool ect ect.

These are also the same people who would condemn me to their version of eternal torture for not believing in the same god as them.

You really shouldn't bring religion to compare with a discussion like this.

So I shall continue to attempt to have a spirited debate with good information, and hopefully not have it degenerate into name-calling (wishful thinking, I know) as both sides state their views.

Good information or misguided information? If you want people to call you names I'm sure someone will oblige you but honestly your whole stance from what I've read so far is you feel that you're doing nothing wrong in the game with windower because it doesn't "hurt" anyone. Now while I agree what you're doing with it doesn't do much it does give you some advantages over those players who do not use this 3rd party application.

Pet TP does not show to you by default. You have to enter in a command to show it. Does using the <pettp> command make you a cheater? I mean, you are checking the cards of the person on the same team as you.

*blinks* So what you're saying is a programmed macro function done by SE within their own game is cheating so windower not made or endorsed or approved by SE in any way shape or form is ok?

Can you explain this logic a lil more clearly?

~S N K

[DoliantheBard]

Speeding is breaking the law.
Even if you're rushing to the hospital, in a hurry for an emergency, or rationalize it any other way; you are still BREAKING THE LAW.


A relative advantage in information derived from a 3rd party tool is cheating. That said, I and nearly every other PC player I know uses them. We are cheaters. /gasp

[Nystul]

The infuriating part of the whole issue as far as Tparty and ESPECIALLY parsers is this: JP rpgs have historically kept the math for calculations and probabilities hidden. Western RPGs are historically open. You can see all the calculations made when attacking something in a game like NWN or Kotor or such games. They are typically transparent.

FFXI is intentionally non-transparent. Therefore it can reasonablybe assumed that the math or calculations etc are hidden and it's suppsoed to be a bit of a puzzle to figure them out. It is the programmers intention to get people to play around with and try to gain an understanding of the way it works. Obviously people still argue endlessly about how exactly certain wepon skill or treasure drop or whatever calculations are performed.

So if part of the game is to figure these things out why NOT use a parser? I mean you're pushing people into using it because they DON'T know what setups are the best etc.

As for windower well...I could just buy FFXI for my PS2, and browse the web on my laptop at the same time OR I could play the game on my laptop in higher resolution and browse the web at the same time. Meh...I understand that windower is what allows things like POS or crafting/claiming bots to function but to be perfectly honest if I can't window out to check info or to entertain myself while I have to wait 20 minutes for a ship to come well...then I probably just wouldn't play.

[Hyjynx]

Pet TP does not show to you by default. You have to enter in a command to show it. Does using the <pettp> command make you a cheater? I mean, you are checking the cards of the person on the same team as you.

I didn't know the <pettp> command was a 3rd party program.

Exactly, mastergara is just arguing to argue without fully understanding what he/she is arguing about. <pettp> was put in the game by S-E.. so everyone has the ability to use it. Something like Tparty is only available to people who use a special tool... based on their platform and personal morality.
Windower plugins are NO different than a flee tool or PoS.exe.

That puts everyone else at a dissadvantage. There are no two ways to look at it Masteraga...

I'm not saying that there arent "different levels" of cheating... but cheating is cheating period lol.
There's nothing to argue here.

my laptop in higher resolution and browse the web at the same time. Meh...I understand that windower is what allows things like POS or crafting/claiming bots to function but to be perfectly honest if I can't window out to check info or to entertain myself while I have to wait 20 minutes for a ship to come well...then I probably just wouldn't play.

If our current windower didnt exist it wouldnt change a damn thing where bots and hacks are concerned. People would program an overlay interface or work around it with text commands... or just create their own version of a windower.

[ponskun]

I use windower because I enjoy being able to use my pc. So I am guilty as charged.

[shieldsofwindurst]

I don't know why I'm engaging in this thread, since there will never be a consensus on this, other than the fact that I'm procrastinating on my homework. In any case.

Here is how I see it. The context of the situation is VITAL to defining what "cheating" is. For our game, the context of the situation is an MMORPG. Now while you can define cheating however you want, the way I define it, in general, is "something I do hurts someone else." Is it cheating to work smarter and not harder, as mastergara says? In general, the answer is no, unless the strategy you use hurts someone else. That's why it's not cheating to do homework efficiently unless you steal someone else's work. That's why it Is cheating to look at someone's cards during poker, because the point of the game is to win, and you reduce their ability to win by doing so.

Applying this definition to FFXI, the question becomes, does what I do hurt someone else. So let's look at this. The "passive" plugins allow you to do things like the following:
-Get TP for every party member
-See the distance from the mob for ranged attacks
-Parse your damage

So the question is, do these things hurt other people? I suggest that they do not, in general. What these things help you do is improve your performance for less effort. While this is efficient, it does reduce the amount of skill required to play the game. Now, I'm not suggesting, at all, that people that use these passive plugins are not skilled. I am however suggesting that people with less skill can perform at a higher level than unskilled players without these tools. This may in fact be the reason why you find a few morons in every HNMLS who don't know the first thing about their job.

In any case, the point is still that most of the time, using distance plugins, tp party, or parsers do not hurt the ability of others to play the game. The exceptions to this rule would be if you are for example meriting in thickets and dominating the camp, reducing the ability for everyone else to xp, and the *ONLY* reason why you are able to do so is because of your plugins. Parties that succeed in camp domination are usually high in skill, and the plugins don't generally even matter. However even in that case, a comparable *skilled* party Should be able to effectively compete, because nothing the plugins give you is unavailable through learning the game. Because of this, I would not classify using these plugins as cheating. I would, however, classify using these plugins as being lazy. Either you or your party sucks and you need them to perform, or you don't need them. There is no middle ground.


This is in comparison to "active" plugins, such as pos.exe and mrargus and all of that stuff. These plugins DO hurt the ability of other players to play the game, because they give an unfair advantage in movement and claiming, etc etc etc. If I am outclaimed legitimately on fafnir by someone who isn't actually botting (yeah right, but just hypothetically) then that's part of the game, and I hope they get the drop so that they are closer to not competing anymore. If I spend 13 hours at Ulli and am outclaimed by a gilseller who was afk for 13 hours and then provoked from across the room, then that guy should suffer as painful a death as humanly possible.

Anyways, sorry for the wall of text. If it hurts someone else, it's cheating. If it doesn't, it's not cheating, but it's lazy.

[Fhqwghads]

Sorry Mastergara, but wrapping up your cheat defense in a pretty little package doesn't, nor will it ever, make it not cheating. I agree with the other person who said strictly running Windower is not a cheat, because running in a window gives no advantage whatsoever (other than the ability to surf the web or respond to IMs, nothing that a 2nd computer wouldn't be able to do anyway.)

However, almost every plug-in that I've heard of IS a cheat. There's no arguing about it. Seeing someone else's TP really pushes the envelope on how much of a cheat it is, but things like distance, etc. are cheats. No if's, and's, or but's. If a person has an advantage over another person because they are using 3rd party tools, they are cheating. Period.