TOS change

[Byrd]

For the life of me, I don't see why people don't see violating the TOS isn't cheating, even to a little extent, other than they don't like being labelled a cheater.

I don't care if people use Tparty, distance, Windower macros, or any other "Misdemeanor" plug-in, I don't care, I really don't. (If you use Tparty, distance, Windower macros or any of the "felony" plug-ins, we have issues, however.)
But claiming it isn't cheating is just wrong, I'm sorry, it's not really debatable. If that's what you have to do to sleep at night, so be it. But you are cheating when you violate the TOS, and you damn well know it. So am I when I use the windows macroer.

Debating the morality of using these plug-ins is perfectly legitimate. Whether using these "misdemeanor" programs is cheating is really not.

If we change the word "Cheating" to "Violating Rules" would that make you feel better? To me, those are synonyms.

Side Thought: If you participate in Ballista and use any of the above against other players, how can you validate using them is not Cheating when they do have a direct impact on the success and failure of other players?

EDIT: Added 4th paragraph.

[solsovly]

We need to add "bots vs windower" in the sticky. This is getting annoying.

[TsingTao]

Amen!

[shieldsofwindurst]

If we change the word "Cheating" to "Violating Rules" would that make you feel better? To me, those are synonyms.

You have to remember, there is a letter of the law vs. spirit of the law argument here. Yes, using any 3rd party tool violates the TOS. However, you can violate the TOS in a bunch of other ways too. Assuming that any violation of the TOS = you cheated implies that every rule in the TOS is not only correct but specifically written to prevent cheating. That's not always true.

I've violated the TOS in the following ways:
-Logged into a friend's account while they were on vacation to check on their gardening for them.
-Paid for another friend's account for a few months so they could play while they were unemployed.

That's it. I don't use windower, I don't parse, I don't do anything else, but by the logic violation = cheating, I'm a cheater and should be banned. I disagree. The POINT of the TOS is to ensure that everyone enjoys the game as much as they can (well, besides getting as much money out of us as possible). Violations of the TOS may or may not impact that. If they don't (and there are violations you can engage in that do not) then I don't consider them to be cheating. You can call them cheating, feel free. I understand your stance. But I personally think that putting your faith in the rules being 100% correct I think is a bit shortsighted.

Edit: clarity

[Darkblood]

Does anyone have the "Short Line" sticker for the Mcdonalds Monopoly game? I have 3/4 to 5million. You provide the other 1/4, and you get 1/4 of 5million US dollars.

[Takedown3]

Does anyone have the "Short Line" sticker for the Mcdonalds Monopoly game? I have 3/4 to 5million. You provide the other 1/4, and you get 1/4 of 5million US dollars.

shortline prolly doesnt exist, if it does its prolly a very low production rate so trading doesnt happen

[Tordall]

pretty sure that was sarcasm.

Each of the 'big prize' sets for that game have one peice that's tightly controled. The McDonald's peeps actually know who's gonna win b/c they distribute the peice in a non-blind way. That way they can get a videotape of someone winning big bucks.

That's the big reason why employees and relatives of employees are banned from winning stuff in those games.

[miokomioko]

The 'Terms of Use' contract is not a fucking game. Therefor, violating it does not automatically mean "cheating." Is that hard to understand?

Here's some plain english logic to wrap your brain around.

All cheating is violation of the ToS.
But, not all violations of the ToS are cheating.

There you go.

http://www.windower.net

See? Now all those who view these forums or read this post now have easy access to this. I am working to advertise such during the superbowl halftime to cover everyone else. Yay for doing my part to help other people!

Awesome... now how do I install it on my Xbox 360?

Exactly. Mastergara, you're bringing up moot points left and right that don't even make sense. You do realize I'm saying Windower isn't cheating right? When I mention Windower, I'm talking about a windower without plugins. When I'm talking about plugins, I say plugins. Windower doesn't do anything to the product as a game, doesn't change anything about the game's functionality and purpose... I'm not technically inclined enough to say it doesn't touch or alter the tangible code of it, but that's aside from the point because that's simply a ToS violation and doesn't mean CHEAT. It, in fact, makes a PC user more like console users in regards to the fact that they can use their PC without being forced to log out of the fucking game, which after all this bullshit is just an inconvenience.

Using windower would have the same effect on my gaming as setting a PS2/Xbox and a TV next to my computer. So what's the problem? It violates the strict rules of the Terms of Use agreement contract? And? A legal technicality with SE's lawyers has anything to do with whether I'm playing fair with other players in this virtual world? I think not.

[mastergara]

The 'Terms of Use' contract is not a fucking game. Therefor, violating it does not automatically mean "cheating." Is that hard to understand?

Calm; Chill; Settle. No need to use profanities

Exactly. Mastergara, you're bringing up moot points left and right that don't even make sense. You do realize I'm saying Windower isn't cheating right? When I mention Windower, I'm talking about a windower without plugins. When I'm talking about plugins, I say plugins. Windower doesn't do anything to the product as a game, doesn't change anything about the game's functionality and purpose... I'm not technically inclined enough to say it doesn't touch or alter the tangible code of it, but that's aside from the point because that's simply a ToS violation and doesn't mean CHEAT. It, in fact, makes a PC user more like console users in regards to the fact that they can use their PC without being forced to log out of the fucking game, which after all this bullshit is just an inconvenience.

Using windower would have the same effect on my gaming as setting a PS2/Xbox and a TV next to my computer. So what's the problem? It violates the strict rules of the Terms of Use agreement contract? And? A legal technicality with SE's lawyers has anything to do with whether I'm playing fair with other players in this virtual world? I think not.

Why so worked up about this? Sheesh! Losing your temper and devolving into profanities is not needed.

Which points do you refer to that are moot? Because it sounds like you are saying "Well, the windower is ok because it doesnt change anything, but adds functionality" while also saying "the plugins are bad because they dont change anything, but add functionality"

Bit confusing, nya?

Take a deep breath, unbundle your knickers, and please clarify exactly where you are drawing your black and white narrow view on what is "Cheating" and what is simply "Violation of the ToS"

Kind regards in advance :wink:

[MrLahey]

Take a deep breath, unbundle your knickers, and please clarify exactly where you are drawing your black and white narrow view on what is "Cheating" and what is simply "Violation of the ToS"

Kind regards in advance :wink:

Logging into a friends account = Violation of ToS

Running a 3rd party program to tell you the exact distance to stand to achieve maximum damage, while said program is impossible to install on 2/3 systems that FFXI runs on = cheating

SE doesn't want you doing either. SE thinks both are wrong.

[shinobi_tabi]

Does anyone have the "Short Line" sticker for the Mcdonalds Monopoly game? I have 3/4 to 5million. You provide the other 1/4, and you get 1/4 of 5million US dollars.

i have it, how about you give me the 3/4 stickers and i will give 1/4 the loot :D

[cassiraa]

If you map the folder with the log files as a network drive, you can parse yourself in real time on a second computer without the aid or use of a windower or ANY 3rd party software running on the computer or device that is running FFXI.

Same applies to Ventrillo, Teamspeak, MSN/AIM, and browsing the internet, these things do not DIRECTLY affect FFXI insofar as affecting the gameplay or the data of the game on the computer itself. Nor do they allow you to view things that were not origionally designed to be viewable [Other's TP, Distance, BP timer with no avatar out, or seeing duration timers on spells.] I run them on the computer next to me that isn't running FFXI. How could they be cheats if they're on a totally different computer?



As far as the "Communication" thing, The game was designed to have communication with your party, and skillchain was supposed to have a "hokay, I'm ready, ( '-')/ Go for it ^^" in the party so that the other group knew you were ready. Phones, Same room, Vent, etc. all provide communication to your party, as opposed to seeing it yourself. Because, by design, You aren't supposed to see it yourself.


The <pettp> thing is retarded because by design you can check it yourself using the default tools in the game.

[Hyjynx]

Why so worked up about this? Sheesh!

I think he's getting worked up over your obvious lack of basic common sense. I just gave up.

I'm a PC user and I love the windower too.. but it is what it is.

If you map the folder with the log files as a network drive, you can parse yourself in real time on a second computer without the aid or use of a windower or ANY 3rd party software running on the computer or device that is running FFXI

Thats exactly what I do. I have 1 box as my "Bit torrent Mule". My main rig. and my laptop.
I run my parser and vent/TS from my laptop.
The only reason I even care to use the windower is because my main rig has my sound system and I like listening to music at obnoxious levels... and I cant control my media player of choice while ffxi is going.

[Remembrance]

Dear Jesus, you are ignorant.

Nobody has placed themselves up on a pedestal as 'non-cheaters' because they don't use the windower plugins, but are stating the fact that despite what YOU think, it still is cheating. Most of the people on this forum are windower users who use plugins, they are cheaters.

Windower without plugins itself, does not alter the way you play Final Fantasy INSIDE the game at all.

[mastergara]

Dear Jesus, you are ignorant.

No need to bring Jesus into it. And why with the namecalling on such a person?

Nobody has placed themselves up on a pedestal as 'non-cheaters' because they don't use the windower plugins, but are stating the fact that despite what YOU think, it still is cheating. Most of the people on this forum are windower users who use plugins, they are cheaters.

Windower without plugins itself, does not alter the way you play Final Fantasy INSIDE the game at all.

So that is another category of clearly myopic, black and white. This 3rd party app is "ok" but using the plugins is bad.

And despite what you people may think, you are only reading and seeing what you want to see. My posts are reflections of such. I know exactly what everyone here is saying, but it was an amusing way to spend my day, watching each stance attempt to defend how it is right.

BTW: Using another computer to parse this is a prime example of "Within the letter of the law, but not the spirit"

Incindentally, did I ever state that I think that using the windower, or plugins are or not cheats, or was that an assumption on the part of the readers?

~nyow~

[Lordwafik]

<3 all my plugins, each and every one of them. My favourite one is Zerocast, where my recast timers tick down LIVE, ON STAGE, on my screen, back to 0! Works for all JA and Spells.

[MrLahey]

Are people seriously saying that a the Distance Plugin is a cheat?

Incindentally, did I ever state that I think that using the windower, or plugins are or not cheats, or was that an assumption on the part of the readers?

[mastergara]

Are people seriously saying that a the Distance Plugin is a cheat?

Incindentally, did I ever state that I think that using the windower, or plugins are or not cheats, or was that an assumption on the part of the readers?

And?

[Ksandra]

Well if this thread taught me one thing. Masteraga is an idiot.

You know, even if people recognize plugins as a cheat that doesn't mean they don't use it nor are hypocritical for using it.

I think most coke addicts realize what they're doing is illegal, but it's not like they think "oh shit ya I never knew this was illegal and people don't like it, I'll stop doing it then."

All the people in the thread have been saying plugins are a cheat, not "I'm holier than you and don't use cheats like you." They haven't been saying you shouldn't do it, or they don't do it, or that they look down on you for doing it. Just giving the label that they are cheats. The fact that you're so bent on them not being cheats make you look ridiculous.

You seriously have to be one of the most ignorant person I've seen on this forum (along with lolgrunion and that vivi guy.)

[Hyjynx]

Well if this thread taught me one thing. Masteraga is an idiot.