Hellsteak and Hydra Kofte, anybody tried them?

[Lithiani]

Isn't there a sticky thread for X vs. Y debates?

Anyway, I've heard (yeah yeah, unconfirmed rumours) that these both have a +Triple Attack effect on them. I don't have any to test with myself.

[Maguspk]

If you try to kill Tiamat with just a PLD/WAR tanking and 12 people within 2 hours, it just won't happen. A PLD/WAR requires a good deal of support to work, while other tanks can do the same job better and require less.

No one said it was impossible for a PLD/WAR to tank something, and it surely isn't impossible for PLD/WARs to tank something from start to finish without dieing, it's just now much less unlikely and inefficient in comparison to other tanking combinations. A PLD/NIN will generate much more hate, hold it stronger, and takes less damage in comparison. The same could be said when comparing it to a NIN/DRK or NIN/BRD.

Over the last like 2 years or so I've tanked besides /WAR and /NIN and /BRD, etc, and there's a huge difference between PLD/WAR and PLD/NIN. A PLD/NIN can literally solo tank JoL, meanwhile a PLD/WAR or NIN/WAR voking in around +50 enmity will rarely even see any hate at all.

Provoke sucks.

Um wrong? Had a PLD/WAR tank JoL from start to finish holding solid hate almost the entire fight. Hardly "rarely even see any hate at all". Also, I don't see how a PLD/NIN can generate MORE hate than a PLD/WAR, PLD/WAR has much more options for hate generation and with blinks can mitigate a great deal of damage at least half of what a PLD/NIN mitigates.

[LinktheDeme]

So anyone confirmed on if it gives haste?

[Eaglestrike]

If you try to kill Tiamat with just a PLD/WAR tanking and 12 people within 2 hours, it just won't happen. A PLD/WAR requires a good deal of support to work, while other tanks can do the same job better and require less.

No one said it was impossible for a PLD/WAR to tank something, and it surely isn't impossible for PLD/WARs to tank something from start to finish without dieing, it's just now much less unlikely and inefficient in comparison to other tanking combinations. A PLD/NIN will generate much more hate, hold it stronger, and takes less damage in comparison. The same could be said when comparing it to a NIN/DRK or NIN/BRD.

Over the last like 2 years or so I've tanked besides /WAR and /NIN and /BRD, etc, and there's a huge difference between PLD/WAR and PLD/NIN. A PLD/NIN can literally solo tank JoL, meanwhile a PLD/WAR or NIN/WAR voking in around +50 enmity will rarely even see any hate at all.

Provoke sucks.

Um wrong? Had a PLD/WAR tank JoL from start to finish holding solid hate almost the entire fight. Hardly "rarely even see any hate at all". Also, I don't see how a PLD/NIN can generate MORE hate than a PLD/WAR, PLD/WAR has much more options for hate generation and with blinks can mitigate a great deal of damage at least half of what a PLD/NIN mitigates.

By 'much more' do you mean 'two'? PLD/WAR has to focus on +shield, +hp and decent amount of defense gear-wise. PLD/NIN just focus's on haste a bit, hp a bit, and alllllllllllllllllllll enmity. Wearing extra enmity during flash/cures/sentinel/rampart closes that gap of hateline from losing provoke and warcry.

[RKenshin]

Isn't there a sticky thread for X vs. Y debates?

Anyway, I've heard (yeah yeah, unconfirmed rumours) that these both have a +Triple Attack effect on them. I don't have any to test with myself.

Every thread on this forum turns into some kind of debate/fight at one point or another, the sticky was mostly made to get rid of the old ones people are sick of seeing. A while ago every thread would turn into DRK v All and Meat v Sushi debates, people got tired of it, so a sticky was made to avoid it.

Um wrong? Had a PLD/WAR tank JoL from start to finish holding solid hate almost the entire fight. Hardly "rarely even see any hate at all". Also, I don't see how a PLD/NIN can generate MORE hate than a PLD/WAR, PLD/WAR has much more options for hate generation and with blinks can mitigate a great deal of damage at least half of what a PLD/NIN mitigates.

Notice in my post, my example had a PLD/NIN held hate over PLD/WARs in the same fight. Of course if you just have a PLD/WAR alone tanking the mob is going to focus on him, who else is the mob going to look at? The PLD/NIN on another server? Saying a PLD/WAR alone can hold hate fine on JoL or a Wyrm doesn't speak much to the power of the job at all considering most people use SMNs to damage them in the first place.

Now, if you're comparing multiple tanks all in the same fight (like I was doing in my post), and who can hold the most hate between them, it actually means something towards the point I'm making. My point being that PLD/WAR is outdone in just about every way by PLD/NIN at endgame in the tougher fights. A PLD/WAR and NIN/WAR both with 40-50 Enmity each spamming Provoke/etc could not get hate off of the PLD/NIN. It happened, I witnessed it, and it always will happen as long as the PLD/NIN knows what they're doing.

Shadows allow PLD/NIN to wear much more Enmity, MP, and Haste gear than a PLD/WAR... Allowing them to Cure more often and for much more hate (not to mention hate from Curing is much more solid than Provoke), while at the same time losing hate much slower than a PLD/WAR because they take significantly less damage overall.

In addition, a PLD/NIN requires much less support to work. You can't kill Tiamat with 12 people and a PLD/WAR tank, but you can with PLD/NIN.

[nekoshoonen]

GTFO PLD/WAR argument?

I keep looking in for some extra info on these new foods and you guys are just wasting everyone's time. no one truly gives a fcuk.

PLD/WAR great for some things PLD/NIN great for others.
RDM/BLM good for sleepga RDM/DRK good for chainspell stun
you know Subjobs being situational and all...

now please STFU?

[Maguspk]

GTFO PLD/WAR argument?

I keep looking in for some extra info on these new foods and you guys are just wasting everyone's time. no one truly gives a fcuk.

PLD/WAR great for some things PLD/NIN great for others.
RDM/BLM good for sleepga RDM/DRK good for chainspell stun
you know Subjobs being situational and all...

now please STFU?

lol nobody is talking about the food because it sucks.

@Rkenshin, I misread your post you said you tanked "besides" instead of beside and so I just skipped that sentence not even trying to interpret it but now I see what you were trying to say. If PLD/NIN truly held hate over a PLD/WAR I'd guess it was better in that case, but maybe it was because the PLD/NIN didn't take much dmg and so he held hate towards the beginning of the fight. And so the PLD/WAR didn't have much dmg to heal for. Idk, PLD/WAR has always worked for us, and it is possible to kill with 12 and a PLD/WAR just might take a bit longer than /NIN for obvious reasons heh. I wonder if my PLDs could argue for the PLD/WAR side any better considering PLD/WAR have worked pretty well for us since the beginning of FFXI really. We use PLD/NIN on B2 tho, because he's a beastie XD.

[nekoshoonen]

I'm sorry to me they don't seem to suck. +7 STR and +70 DEF is cannonball heaven. would be good if some others stats were there since im sure mats can be very expensive. but you carry on with your inane argument <.<

[JMunin]

If anyone can get their hands on the other new food, like the simit or the stewpot, I'd be interested in knowing what their stats are.

[Khamsin]

Isn't there a sticky thread for X vs. Y debates?

Nah, that's just for Meat vs. Sushi / War vs. Mnk vs. Nin / CoP vs ToAU / DRK.

[Stellar]

Taking damage is the quickest way to lose enmity.. Imagine a mob hitting a pld/war for about 200 damage on average. In the 30 seconds that provoke is down, the pld/nin would go through about 6 shadows (1200 damage to the pld/war) No way one provoke is going to make up for that kind of hate loss... not to mention the hate given to the mages for curing. The only time pld/war has an advantage is if a mob has hundred fists or some kind of erratic attack cycle, where defender outweighs utsusemi as far as damage taken. Basically subjob should never be chosen because of provoke, because like rukenshin says.. provoke sucks..

I ate hellsteak as a ranger in thickets and was really questioning if it gave any ratt boost at all. Since someone else said it didn't, it's pretty likely it gives none. Since damage sucked, I came back as ninja and didn't notice any haste increase (I also have a recast timer on my Ni macro and likely would have noticed if it was lower than normal) but not 100% sure on that since I'm close to the haste cap and had march and haste..

[Elondir]

For big hitting things i'd always take PLD/NIN over PLD/WAR, because the hate loss taking a few ~350dmg hits is huge, better to blink it than just voke. However, the best tanks i've fought with (when not tanking, as BLM) have been NIN/DRK and NIN/BRD, which are equally good for different types of enemy.

Like has been said PLD/WAR often requires a strong backline of RDM/SMN and BRD/SMN for AA spam to blink as many hits as possible, which for me isn't worth the mp cost in a long fight when the PLD can /NIN and really not lose that much.

[Kazen]

Your pld's probably dont like pld/nin (and it probably doesnt preform well either) because most plds use there dam pld/war gear for their pld/nin(all hp). Yeah pld/nin with little emnity sucks and thats probably why you think pld/war is better for everything. However both have there uses but maybe you should actually level pld before you try to say pld/war is the end all best tank. :wink:

[Maguspk]

Your pld's probably dont like pld/nin (and it probably doesnt preform well either) because most plds use there dam pld/war gear for their pld/nin(all hp). Yeah pld/nin with little emnity sucks and thats probably why you think pld/war is better for everything. However both have there uses but maybe you should actually level pld before you try to say pld/war is the end all best tank. :wink:

My paladins aren't stupid tyvm. We were once upon a time #1 on big kills tyvm lol. (lolBigkills I know). Anyway, ya the one thing that PLD/NIN doesn't work for with our ls is our dd pull hate way too often and the pld/war is just much more efficient at getting that hate back. I've watched other lses do Tiamat and risk flails because their tanks couldn't get hate back. I've also seen them wipe due to lack of being able to get hate back after roars and such, so ya. Pld/war just seems better esp vs roar and strong dd. Maybe your dds are weak enough or few enough that the pld/nin can keep hate off of them without much trouble. I dunno. And no pld takes 350 from a swing off tiamat as for mighty strikes, we employ aerial armor when necessary tyvm. which mitigates the big hits which can sometimes take a pld low releatively fast (I however sub /blm all the time because /smn sucks and the rdm should be /smn not the whm! but oh well )

[RKenshin]

Without a doubt, a PLD/NIN that doesn't know how to play it and doesn't equip themselves properly is probably the worst kind of tank in the game (baring unrealistic combinations like DRG/SMN). With PLD/WAR you can at least be an idiot and still figure out that using Provoke every thirty seconds will give you hate, but with PLD/NIN it's much more complicated.

Even for a skillful player, if you don't play PLD/NIN correctly it sucks. However, IMO done correctly in the right situations even the best PLD/WAR couldn't match a skillful PLD/NIN.

[Marcicus]

I'm half tempted to link this page to our website so our PLD/WAR onry maniacs will shut the fuck up. ><

[XxSlusherxx]

Your pld's probably dont like pld/nin (and it probably doesnt preform well either) because most plds use there dam pld/war gear for their pld/nin(all hp). Yeah pld/nin with little emnity sucks and thats probably why you think pld/war is better for everything. However both have there uses but maybe you should actually level pld before you try to say pld/war is the end all best tank. :wink:

My paladins aren't stupid tyvm. We were once upon a time #1 on big kills tyvm lol. (lolBigkills I know). Anyway, ya the one thing that PLD/NIN doesn't work for with our ls is our dd pull hate way too often and the pld/war is just much more efficient at getting that hate back. I've watched other lses do Tiamat and risk flails because their tanks couldn't get hate back. I've also seen them wipe due to lack of being able to get hate back after roars and such, so ya. Pld/war just seems better esp vs roar and strong dd. Maybe your dds are weak enough or few enough that the pld/nin can keep hate off of them without much trouble. I dunno. And no pld takes 350 from a swing off tiamat as for mighty strikes, we employ aerial armor when necessary tyvm. which mitigates the big hits which can sometimes take a pld low releatively fast (I however sub /blm all the time because /smn sucks and the rdm should be /smn not the whm! but oh well )

You know the reason people are not accepting your arguments is because you keep talking like pld/war generates more hate than pld/nin, which by the way, on most HNM(like Tiamat) it dosen't.

[Ravenlokk]

doesnt really matter whatthefuck i said

gtfo and rub one out if all you really want is gratification.

edit add: (no, that wasnt a real quote)

[Kazen]

Without a doubt, a PLD/NIN that doesn't know how to play it and doesn't equip themselves properly is probably the worst kind of tank in the game (baring unrealistic combinations like DRG/SMN). With PLD/WAR you can at least be an idiot and still figure out that using Provoke every thirty seconds will give you hate, but with PLD/NIN it's much more complicated.

Even for a skillful player, if you don't play PLD/NIN correctly it sucks. However, IMO done correctly in the right situations even the best PLD/WAR couldn't match a skillful PLD/NIN.

Exactly my point, chances are if you think pld/war is 100% better than pld/nin either your plds suck, or they use there pld/war gear for pld/nin lol (which also sucks).

[Glade``]

Edited for the lol.

PLD/NIN benefit the overall party dynamic a alot more than PLD/WAR. PLD/NIN and NIN both greatly benefit from marches and the sort. In addition, PLD can get quite a bit of haste and MP/HP gear on the body slots, leaving the rest open for enmity zerg. The very low flash recast as a result of the haste also contributes to a PLD/NIN's versatility and hate gain.