Alla pics!

[BRP]

Well, the first thing I've noticed, their dumbass population consists mostly of Red Mages who want to melee. The site is okay for new players... I'd suggest it over KI or Alla. But I wouldn't call it a haven from stupidity.

[Nystul]

What a stupid debate (and in the wrong thread). Stop tainting this win.

Let's settle this. Nyzul your statement is an unproven fact. To keep things simple, let's just call it an opinion, because you are really saying "The "gameplay" is the most important/fun/ect part of the game".

The game is focused on one thing: to make players pay SE money.

How they entertain the players is going to be different for each player. Some people prefer the storyline and some people people don't give a shit. Usually, the player with the most open mind to content is going to enjoy more things than someone who only likes one or two type of things. Nyzul you don't seem to think the storyline plays much importance in your experience. Well my friend, that's just your opinion. Don't make it seem everyone is going to play like you. Accept that as many other people have accepted that.

1. It is not unproven fact. The central, basic, most important part of the game IS UNARGUABLY character development. Ignore the story and you can still do many things. Avoid any character development and...umm...you're a level 1 in a starting town forever. You can not ignore character development and still play this game. The *goal* of this game is player development, because that is by far the most expansive and open ended part of the game. Your motivation for continuation may be to camp more, may be for epeen, may be because you like the story and want to progress through it, but ultimately what everyone spends their time doing is furthering their characters.

2. I did not say the story is unimportant, THAT is an opinion. I SAID that the focal point of the game is NOT the story, if it were we'd all have stopped playing years ago because the story elements are relatively easy to complete.

3. My initial argument was that someone who looks to MMO's for storylines is like someone going to a gay bar to pick up some easy to score vagina. Sorry, fresh out. FFXI has a storyline, and while you may or may not find it enjoyable, it is hardly up to par with even the more average single player RPG's. You may like it, and if you do then great. But if that is the ONLY thing you care about (as the OP that initiated this stated) then my question is why is he still playing as one could hardly spend more than half a year completing all the missions.

Next time, take 2 minutes to actually read what was said instead of writing up a whole reply based on arguments I never tried to make. And the name is Nystul not Nyzul, for fucks sake. Stop 4chan wanking and pay attention.

[Helpoemer]

not alla but i kinda lol'd at the comment on this page

http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/9021

[BRP]

All I hear are opinions, Nyzul. Even playing the "Character Development" card, to someone that could include mostly titles, ranks, and quests. Nice attempt at the 4chan insult. You know, that really stung. Now stop ruining this thread, thanks.

[BRP]

Are you retarded?

I'd like to think not.

I'm happy you decided not to post whatever you were going to. We should instead try to post links(or screenshots since it does say pics in the titles) to hilarious content found on other sites, mostly Zam.

[Nystul]

All I hear are opinions because thats all I choose to see since I'm too much of an arrogant shithead to bother reading what someone else writes and considering that GOD HOLY FUCK FORBID that I might have actually been wrong or misdirected in my criticisms so instead I'll just be dismissive about it and play it off like 'lols whatever stop the pointless argument' even though I was the fucking douche that started the confrontation in the first place by being a nitpicky tool about someone mocking someone else who obviously deserved it.

Fix'd?

[BRP]

I was saying "stop this argument" from the very beginning, but it seems now, I'm being provoked into continuing it. I'd like this thread to be on topic, but if that's going to viewed as cowardice then I guess I should explain my opinion on the matter. If you don't mind, I will use your previous post for quoting.

The central, basic, most important part of the game IS UNARGUABLY character development.

This is an opinion and it isn't unarguable as you wish it to be. If it was, people wouldn't be arguing it now, would they?

Ignore the story and you can still do many things. Avoid any character development and...umm...you're a level 1 in a starting town forever.

Just because it's necessary doesn't mean it's the focus point in the game to everyone. This point actually applies to me personally. Leveling is just an ends to the means. It's the work part of the game and it never brings me any fun. It's grinding. You do it, but it's not why you play the game. You are right that it's required, but that doesn't support or hurt anyone's argument. To put it in favor of my point of view instead of yours: You said that you must level to do storyline progress correct? That would mean leveling(gameplay of the game) would be focused around storyline. So again, this doesn't mean anything.

The *goal* of this game is player development, because that is by far the most expansive and open ended part of the game.

Player development is such a vague term. Like I mentioned before, what exactly counts as development is different for different people. Titles, missions, and quests could be development, while everything else is just a means to reach that development(much like doing Zilart mission would be a means to reaching Sky gear and exp camps). Goal of the game is decided by the person playing the game. There is no "The End" screen in FFXI, neither of our goals will be the one true goal in FFXI. People have different opinions, is that really so hard to understand?

2. I did not say the story is unimportant, THAT is an opinion. I SAID that the focal point of the game is NOT the story, if it were we'd all have stopped playing years ago because the story elements are relatively easy to complete.

I afraid to say: both of these are opinions.

3. My initial argument was that someone who looks to MMO's for storylines is like someone going to a gay bar to pick up some easy to score vagina. Sorry, fresh out. FFXI has a storyline, and while you may or may not find it enjoyable, it is hardly up to par with even the more average single player RPG's.

Again, opinion.

You may like it, and if you do then great. But if that is the ONLY thing you care about (as the OP that initiated this stated) then my question is why is he still playing as one could hardly spend more than half a year completing all the missions.

I agree with you: I think the more content you are opened mind to, the more there is to enjoy. I even bring this point against you for you not enjoying the storyline, but somehow you are having enough fun not to quit.

And just because the OP only cares about storyline wouldn't mean he doesn't grind stuff he doesn't care about. He obviously has a job above level 1. Somehow, someway he is entertaining himself enough not to quit.

What's a really bothersome about the OP is his manner of only caring about the storyline. He despises everything but the storyline... and the way he justifies his only caring about the storyline is very lol-able. Oh, I shall not forget the way he creates storyline for his jobs, some of which make no sense even if they were to be taken seriously. I think we can agree on this.

Nyzul(and btw, if you haven't caught on, I've been doing this on purpose since the first error) you are saying your opinion is fact/law. Basically, forcing your opinion onto other people. That is never a good thing. And just to be clear, what you are saying is an opinion, not fact. No matter how much you believe in it, it's still just your opinion. I don't know why you seem content on challenging the point of view "people have different opinions", but I've seen weirder arguments.

Most importantly, this is all out of topic and should cease. If that wasn't reason enough, don't you realize this isn't going to be settled, so why bother continuing. I hope, after I've been completely drawn into it, the argument can stop now and we can see more lulz on different forums. I know you are dying to have the last word, go ahead.

[BRP]

So, I can go do all the storyline missions and quests in the game and never have to level up? After all, you just told me the idea that I have to develop my character in order to advance is purely an opinion.

Aww, I used brain power to write all that, you could have at least read it.

Here, you only have to read this part:

Just because it's necessary doesn't mean it's the focus point in the game to everyone. This point actually applies to me personally. Leveling is just an ends to the means. It's the work part of the game and it never brings me any fun. It's grinding. You do it, but it's not why you play the game. You are right that it's required, but that doesn't support or hurt anyone's argument. To put it in favor of my point of view instead of yours: You said that you must level to do storyline progress correct? That would mean leveling(gameplay of the game) would be focused around storyline. So again, this doesn't mean anything.

[Nystul]

No, it means that the storyline is your motivation for taking part in what is the central activity of the game in developing your character. Would the game be, in a broad sense, any different if you took out the missions? No more so than if you took out assault or limbus or ENMS or whatever.

Your purpose or your drive or your motivation is whatever you want it to be. However, all things are either directly tied to the acquisition of money, items, and levels (say repeatedly farming sky or dynamis), or indirectly tied to those things ("I must skill up sword to have a chance at killing Maat" "I'm leveling nin sub so I can beat the 9-2 mission" "I'm farming items to beat ultima/omega mission").


The storyline is a spoke in the wheel, and while it doesn't do anything for me personally, it is no less important a spoke in the wheel than limbus or dynamis or whatever event you do or do not prefer to take part in. But the OP said that storyline was the CENTRAL point of the game, and it is not. Everything you do in the game is either to benefit your character directly or to benefit your character so you can experience a new part of a mission or whatever.

You may like the storyline of Halo (god knows why but I'm sure someone out there does), but the central point of the game is to run around and shoot things. You may like the drafting and building of a team in Madden Football, but the central point of that game is to play football. You may like the mythology of God of War, but the central point of that game is to beat shit up and solve puzzles. You may like running around and solving puzzles in Tomb Raider but the central point of that game is to crawl into a small tunnel so you can lock the camera behind you and ogle the pixelated ass as it wiggles when you crawl.


Again, the one thing that everything you do in the game- EVERYTHING you do in the game- ties back to: Character development. Every quest/mission/event yields items, money, exp, fame.

[BRP]

Then you have to redefine what you consider character development, which is the point I was driving at.

Well, in the next paragraph...

Player development is such a vague term. Like I mentioned before, what exactly counts as development is different for different people. Titles, missions, and quests could be development, while everything else is just a means to reach that development(much like doing Zilart mission would be a means to reaching Sky gear and exp camps). Goal of the game is decided by the person playing the game. There is no "The End" screen in FFXI, neither of our goals will be the one true goal in FFXI. People have different opinions, is that really so hard to understand?

Nyzul, you aren't even directly opposing my points anymore. Motivation... focus... it's practically the same thing. You couldn't possibly mean someone who never levels, because that isn't the OP(he wouldn't have to make storys for his Paladin's subjob if that was the case). As you long as you understand what you are saying is an opinion.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Wait, it changed from what the game was built around/goal of the game, to the central activity? They're two different things. Central activity = what you'll be doing most of the time, in which case Nystul's examples fit. Goal of the game = whatever you can make it. Generally it's fun, showing off, shiny graphics/cutscenes/actions/items/women, feeling good about yourself, or plot development. You might find the action/gameplay of a game almost unbearable, but the plot good enough to continue playing. You might see cutscenes of a game as bathroom breaks, but the action/central activity extremely fun.

Also:

think about it, Odin is the leader of the Aesir, the Norse GODS. In Norse mythology there is also the UNDERWORLD (can't remember what it's called) OF WHICH ODIN DOES NOT BELONG. I feal that Odin MIGHT (read MIGHT) be light elemental. It doesn't make much sense to me why he wouldn't be light, as he is the king of Norse Gods, not the underworld.

I feal that Odin MIGHT be light elemental, too.

EDIT: From here. Like every avatar speculation thread I've seen on Zam/KI/FFXIonline, it has some people bringing actual logic and stuff, while you have others dreaming away.

[Nystul]

You're right. It's just my opinion that if you never tried to progress your character you'd never get past level 1 in beginning RSE of your home town.

Just you know...an opinion. I'm sure that someone at level 1 in their initial RSE in their hometown can enjoy the storylines of the game.

You know, BRP, the whole "respect everyone's opinion" thing is a load of garbage. It's about as practically sensible as mommy telling you that you can be anything if you put your mind to it. No matter how much I practice, no matter how hard I try I will never be an NBA center. Ever. I'll never be a world famous musician no matter how hard I try.

Opinions are not all valid. There are good opinions, bad opinions and uneducated opinions. You said it wasn't inarguable because we're arguing it so therefore it can't be fact. I can argue the color of the sky with you if you like, it doesn't change the color. It could be someone's opinion that black people are inferior to white people. Should we all respect that opinion? Someone could have the opinion that the world would be a better place if we just nuked the entire middle east. Is that a valid, good and worthwhile opinion just as good as anyone else's?

But this is all ancillary to the point here because it's NOT my opinion that character improvement is the central aspect of the game. It is. I'm sorry it offends you in some way but it *is* the central purpose of the game. It is how all other things become possible. The storyline is not the hub of the game, character development is.

[Hapernack]

If I had a quarter for every time Forum=10 spat out a stupid-fucking-worthless-repetitive:

-I'm returning to XXXXX-server after X-months!
-HI I'M NEW!
-Meriting is WRONG!
-Endgamers are STEWPID!
-You're an elitist!
-BG sucks!
-I don't condone third party programs like windower!
-This is for the good of the game!
-NEW JOB IDEA!
-I HAVE AN AWESOME IDEA!
-MERIT IDEA! (I group these together for their particular level of retardedness...
-IDEA TO FIX [Problem-X] these poor schmucks honestly think that SE will one day listen to them)
-Vista sucks!
-(Insert random problem they believe to be revolutionary but we figured out like 2 years ago)

thread... I'd make Bill Gates look like a hobo.

[Mifaco]

Isn't your name red? They must love you, Hapernack.

[Keria]

If I had a quarter for every time Forum=10 spat out a stupid-fucking-worthless-repetitive:

The tension... the seething, manly tension...

YOU'RE SLEEPING WITH FORUM=10 AREN'T YOU?!

[nithyan]

http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fo ... m=4;page=1

Apparently he's still convinced BG is the root of all that's wrong with the world today. As much as i disagreed with the person here who spam downrated a whole bunch of his posts, he can't seem to get it into his head that most people got sick of his "anti-elitist elitism" posts just as much as the elitist ones -_-

[Hapernack]

If I had a quarter for every time Forum=10 spat out a stupid-fucking-worthless-repetitive:

The tension... the seething, manly tension...

YOU'RE SLEEPING WITH FORUM=10 AREN'T YOU?!

It was cheating on me so I dumped it.

Isn't your name red? They must love you, Hapernack.

Forum=10 isn't really why I'm a sage. I'm a big Out of Topic person and I also do a shit-ton on the Endgame forums trying to keep them all at bay (lol you should see my posts on there sometimes I look like a SUPER-DUPER-ASSWIPE the likes of which Nynja has never even come close to being). Mostly when I post, its going to contain a killer point which is completely undebateable in any situation, normally pointing back to BG and some of our parsers or tests we did years ago but they're still figuring out. When I make those kinds of posts, people normally will rate up just because its decent stuff, also in the OoT we have random fun periods with our rate buttons.

[Talisien]

Let me say up front, I think any MMO must be based on rules, and that ruleset probably contains a method of gaining power, perhaps multiple methods. I think it misses the point to start arguing that any game is going to ignore these rules in favor of a storyline. No game, except perhaps table-top role-playing eschews rules for gameplay, otherwise you end up with the cops and robbers argument of who shot who first.

I argued the point, and would still, that FFXI's storyline is somehow beneath Sky farming, Limbus, or Sea. To attain Sea, or Sky, or Limbus you must participate in the storyline. You cannot ignore it, which is why I wrote in my post that they (gameplay v. storyline) run in parallel. I also made a leap and attempted to classify the relationship as the game being built atop a storyline, because I believe it is. Sky could be any random dungeon or any random plane (think EQ's Plane of Fear/Hate) that you zone into based on your level, but instead the designers challenged the typical MMO "Ignore story except as background flavor text" and required that you participate in the storyline to progress. Other aspects of the storyline work in similar ways, such as the Airship pass which allows a buyout if you wish to bypass it, but at such an exorbitant price that one can only imagine the designers screaming "Just do the Missions please!".

In short rules are required, storyline is not. It is very simple to argue that without rules FFXI would not exist, because it is true, it wouldn't work as a game. However without the storyline, FFXI would not be the game it is. That's why your opinion is wrong for my money Nystul, because it fails to encapsulate the whole that is FFXI. It is not simply a distraction, it is as integral to your character's development as Sky farming, or Limbus, or levelling, because without the ZMs and PMs, you could not reach those far away places with levelling alone. That is the defining aspect of FFXI, and trust me, as a longtime WoW/EQ player, there is nothing more relieving than knowing that people in Sky and Sea actually had to team up and earn it rather than just mindlessly grind levels to get there.*

*: Personally I think it's a testament to the RMT that they are in Sky. Recall that RMT did/do cutting edge raid content in other games as well, but didn't find a large enough market to continue it.

edit: Changed "character advancement" to "character development" to tie in the two arguments more effectively.

[Valrath]

Wow.

-"Refresh Effect (+1 MP/tick recovered/upgrade)" ... There's your answer to Refresh II.

[quote:1b517]-Confuse. If this doesn't SCREAM Enfeebling, I don't what does.

I don't visit FFXIonline that much (probably haven't visited it without it being linked since 2005) because some users and posts scared me away (like that Mithra that hated Berticus), but how do their dumbasses compare to the stereotypical "Alla noob"?

(Also, Confuse seems mo' like dark magic if you ask me.)[/quote:1b517]

Some time ago, when alla got bought by the parent company of IGE, some whacko went all emo and lead a small army to FFXIOnline as a "shelter" from "evil sellouts". Naturally, the only people who followed this idiot, were in fact idiots themselves. While alla got purged of some idiots, FFXIOnline got infected

[S N K]

1. It is not unproven fact. The central, basic, most important part of the game IS UNARGUABLY character development. Ignore the story and you can still do many things. Avoid any character development and...umm...you're a level 1 in a starting town forever. You can not ignore character development and still play this game.

Even the RMTs figured this out... D: