Do you claim bot?

[Not not Mattaru]

Game theory – A mathematical approach to analyzing strategic interactions between two or more players.
Usually used to describe/predict actors decisions in a socio, economic, and political sphere.

Values are used to describe Utility values for players by choosing to bot.

-------------------------[No Bot]--------LS-Y-------------[Bot]


[No Bot]-----------------{10,10}-----------------------{-2, 20 (-1-p)}
!
LS
X
!
[Bot]------------------{20 (-1-p), -2}--------------{9 (-1 – p), 9 (-1 – p)}


Breakdown of the game: The actual numbers in this game are somewhat arbitrary, as they are in most games but are used to show a ratio of utility values which are not arbitrary.

The gaming environment where no one is botting and there is two fairly equal LS’s or people camping an NM will have an equilibrium of utility values, because their claims on the mob will in the long run generally be split (if LS’s aren’t equal what would happen would there wouldn’t be an equilibrium under not botting and the less equal LS would gain a greater utility from defecting than the other LS would…which would still gain a greater utility assuming the other LS wouldn’t bot, but not as much comparatively). The other values where only one LS defects (from the ToS) shows the shift in utility gained by camping.

The LS that doesn’t bot has a negative utility because their chance to claim is for all intents and purposes gone and they are wasting their time and money via opportunity cost. The LS that does bot gains a significantly higher utility value, double since it is guaranteed vs. 50%; the modifiers on this number are -1 for possible reparations (botting as far as what I’ve been told is not very detectable unless you are doing stupid shit at the same time) and –p : p is a variable that is representative of people’s personal reservations against botting which is generally the greatest modifier in the decision due to a stigma…yet in concrete values botting is almost a logical choice as will be explained.

The last is the equilibrium provided if both LS’s bot the base values of equilibrium are lesser because an artificial mechanism is now used to equal the playing field which is inherently of less utility than just not botting and having a level playing field. The negative variables are the same as before.

Logical actors nonetheless will choose to bot (the p value is so variable that assigning it a large value makes it kind of pointless in actually discussing the use of bots), because if one group chooses to bot your utility is drastically reduced, so even if the equilibrium value for botting is less than not botting it mitigates the risk that your opponent is going to bot and receive a much greater utility.

Obviously, the equilibrium of not botting is best for the commons but because there isn’t a large concrete reparation against it that makes the botting equilibrium have negative values equal to or greater to the negative utility of one LS botting and the other not botting.

The greatest impediment to botting is the p value nonetheless, because of the social stigma applied, but I am sure there are enough jaded endgamers out there who really could give a shit about the p value and are therefore all up in your Aery ninjaing yo Ridills and abjs, because they are not willing to let a situation happen where one person is botting and they are not.

Yes this is a modified Prisoner’s Dilemma, but different in the outside external negative values which give it more of a commons standpoint.

Also, what you will see in playing multiple rounds of the same game is that even if one LS has a huge value for p, over time the negative utility by camping an LS that bots will constantly increase while the p value remains static or decreases, so in the long run the LS either bots...or stops camping the given NM.

Discuss.

PS. I don't bot so don't throw around accusations at me.

Posted this on my servers forum awhile ago. I took a couple shots got bored so I'm posting it here. For all of you who are to lazy to read it makes an argument for why botting is the natural, logical conclusion when looking at end game. But if you are to lazy to read it don't argue against it please.

[exceed]

am i supposed to lie or something?

edit: takedown uve been to jail like 5 times, are you banned yet?

[Heian]

Hey guys rememeber that time Miafco Mr.Argus'd Mysticmaker Profblix....

[Mingus]

LS who claim they don't bot are 1 of 2 things (and potentially both)..

1. Full of shit.

2. Going to disband within the next 6 months.

In order to last on ground/king competition, you need claims to keep your LS happy. No one likes to go camp something every 21-24 hours and walk out day after day with nothing to show for it. In order to keep up with LS' that DO bot, you need to even the playing field. YOU might not bot, but if your LS gets claims on a consistent basis, I can garuantee someone in your LS DOES bot.

The good guy, honest player, style LS's are wonderful in theory though. FFXI is corrupt, welcome to end game. Live it, accept it, or get lost.

My LS does not bot and we've been together over 2 years and are still active in every single aspect of end game. It's more than a theory.

[Mertron]

LS who claim they don't bot are 1 of 2 things (and potentially both)..

1. Full of shit.

2. Going to disband within the next 6 months.

In order to last on ground/king competition, you need claims to keep your LS happy. No one likes to go camp something every 21-24 hours and walk out day after day with nothing to show for it. In order to keep up with LS' that DO bot, you need to even the playing field. YOU might not bot, but if your LS gets claims on a consistent basis, I can garuantee someone in your LS DOES bot.

The good guy, honest player, style LS's are wonderful in theory though. FFXI is corrupt, welcome to end game. Live it, accept it, or get lost.

Or your shell can camp only when the windows are in your favor, and then hope the shitty botting shells wipe when they do claim, which is actually how we've killed about half our nidhoggs.

(in the same shell as juvant who posted earlier)

Our shell does not bot, other shells on fairy do, we only camp when we know we'll have enough people on. We're fairly successful in anything that doesn't involve DA/BD/VOS, we're perfectly happy.

(The "going to disband in 'x' amount of time" has also been used on our ls many times, hasn't happened yet either. A former member of our shell joined a botting shell after being with us, used the reasoning "your shell will break before my new shell will", and lol the other shell just broke about two months or so ago. yay us)

[archibaldcrane]

The LS that doesn’t bot has a negative utility because their chance to claim is for all intents and purposes gone

I stopped reading here. With "it is impossible to claim vs. bots unless you have one" as one of the game theory's suppositions, everything that follows is meaningless.

[Dezzimal]

If you're claiming with any sort of consistancy, you're botting. End of story.

[Not not Mattaru]

The LS that doesn’t bot has a negative utility because their chance to claim is for all intents and purposes gone

I stopped reading here. With "it is impossible to claim vs. bots unless you have one" as one of the game theory's suppositions, everything that follows is meaningless.

Assuming everything is working on an equal footing. Obviously a better connection is going to beat a poor connection bot or not. If you have the connection speed held constant chances are a bot is going to win.

[Alastaire]

Hey guys rememeber that time Miafco Mr.Argus'd Mysticmaker Profblix....

Hahahahaha

[Aodh]

If you're claiming with any sort of consistancy, you're botting. End of story.

One LS had the same person claim all the kings every time for about a month with obvious teleports right before claim. It is pretty obvious when there's 100 people watching you fly across the screen to claim, and when you do it repeatedly it becomes very obvious you're botting.

Saying you know I bot is similar to saying you know your LS doesn't bot and I already know one of the two is wrong, so there's a pretty good chance the other is as well.

True Wisdom is admitting you know nothing..

I was being rhetorical. Your argument was if you can't prove they're not, then they are. I can't since I can't prove you're not, you obviously are according to your logic. In fact everyone bots. And if everyone bots I have to bot too to be on an equal playing field. And that's the failure in logic.

And you must be a genius because you don't seem to know shit. :-p

[Ferien]

[quote=Not not Mattaru]

The LS that doesn’t bot has a negative utility because their chance to claim is for all intents and purposes gone

I stopped reading here. With "it is impossible to claim vs. bots unless you have one" as one of the game theory's suppositions, everything that follows is meaningless.

Assuming everything is working on an equal footing. Obviously a better connection is going to beat a poor connection bot or not. If you have the connection speed held constant chances are a bot is going to win.[/quote:0e83d]

Not true at all, especially now. Claim delay makes connection speed pretty much meaningless, and bot or not, you still have to correct for both delay and connection speed. It's not impossible for a non-botter to win pull, at all.

[archibaldcrane]

[quote=Not not Mattaru]

The LS that doesn’t bot has a negative utility because their chance to claim is for all intents and purposes gone

I stopped reading here. With "it is impossible to claim vs. bots unless you have one" as one of the game theory's suppositions, everything that follows is meaningless.

Assuming everything is working on an equal footing. Obviously a better connection is going to beat a poor connection bot or not. If you have the connection speed held constant chances are a bot is going to win.[/quote:91d04]

I completely agree. Chances are a bot is going to win. Unfortunately your game theory says that 100% of the time the bot is going to win, which, even on even footing, isn't the case. Therefore it's crap.

[Zigma]

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5281/3kc1.jpg

[Charitwo]

zigma that's awesome lol

[Plow]

I completely agree. Chances are a bot is going to win. Unfortunately your game theory says that 100% of the time the bot is going to win, which, even on even footing, isn't the case. Therefore it's crap.

Maybe not 1 bot vs 1 non-bot, but in aery with 200 people in the pit so that faf pops on only a very few people's screens when he actually pops, and most of the claims happen before most of the people ever even have the mob load (including the claimer), the bots are at least going to be pretty damn near 100% successful over the non-bots.

[Genosync]

That picture is probably one of the best things I have ever seen in my life.

Amazing.

[Darkhearted]

It's funny how oblivious some people are when they think their LS doesn't bot. If you're a serious/successful ground HNM shell, you have botters, whether they admit it or not. I personally don't bot, just because im paranoid about getting a bugged file. As far as my LS goes, no clue. I'm sure as hell not about to go flying off at the righteous handle proclaiming my LS's sacred loyalties to pure claiming. No one comes out in the open and says they bot, but id say the probability of no one botting and the probability of someone botting is at least equally likely.

Remember kids, people don't follow the rules at the best of times, they certainly won't follow them if they see personal gain.

Think masturbation. Most everyone denies it, a lot would to the death, but everyone does it.

All in all, stop being so uptight about the realistic fact that someone in your LS most likely does bot. You don't bot, great, I believe you. I don't believe for one second you successfully claim HNMs against other successful shells without at least a couple secret botters in your shell.

[Genosync]

Everyone on Remora bots.

Period.

There, I said it.

[Kinto]

Botting is such an old and normal thing in end-game, on every server. So yeah...It get's kind of old when people point fingers, or get in a tizzy over it.

[Don Katsu]

On our server there was two or three linkshells one that claimed Fafhogg 30+ times in a row and another that Claimed 15+ behemoths/king in a row. I don't think they were botting <.<