Do you claim bot?

[Vygun]

On our server there was two or three linkshells one that claimed Fafhogg 30+ times in a row and another that Claimed 15+ behemoths/king in a row. I don't think they were botting <.<

that alone says otherwise. lol

[Kurohyou]

On our server there was two or three linkshells one that claimed Fafhogg 30+ times in a row and another that Claimed 15+ behemoths/king in a row. I don't think they were botting <.<

that alone says otherwise. lol

Are you kidding? I can get 30+ claims in a row without botting blindfolded.

[Not Kuno]

On our server there was two or three linkshells one that claimed Fafhogg 30+ times in a row and another that Claimed 15+ behemoths/king in a row. I don't think they were botting <.<

that alone says otherwise. lol

Are you kidding? I can get 30+ claims in a row without botting blindfolded.

Fixed

[Not not Mattaru]

[quote=archibaldcrane]

The LS that doesn’t bot has a negative utility because their chance to claim is for all intents and purposes gone

I stopped reading here. With "it is impossible to claim vs. bots unless you have one" as one of the game theory's suppositions, everything that follows is meaningless.

Assuming everything is working on an equal footing. Obviously a better connection is going to beat a poor connection bot or not. If you have the connection speed held constant chances are a bot is going to win.

I completely agree. Chances are a bot is going to win. Unfortunately your game theory says that 100% of the time the bot is going to win, which, even on even footing, isn't the case. Therefore it's crap.[/quote:43fca]

To Ferien: Even if you are taking the claim delay into effect the amount of tweaking you can do inside of your macro is limited in comparison to the coding of a bot. Quite frankly if you have a botter and a non-botter in a room, and a good bot vs. a good claimer, who is going to win? The cahances when a non-botter wins are often a stroke of luck and nothing more, which is also why you see the claims about consistent claiming often being caused by a bot.

To Archibald:
1) Provide me a better ratio of win and lose chances if you do not find the terms of this game suitable. What you will find is that as long as your values (please warrant them) are not drastically in favor of a non-bot the utility values are still going show that botting is the most logical decision.
2) If you agree that it is ok to assume my game is running with a constant connection speed, why would a bot lose to a non-bot?
3) The major part that you are skating over or just not reading is that there is no way to enforce a contract which guarantees and binds people not to bot, without a significant mechanism it gives people absolutely no reason to not defect. If one person is defecting you are wasting your time by not defecting as well to level the playing field.

[divisortheory]

To Ferien: Even if you are taking the claim delay into effect the amount of tweaking you can do inside of your macro is limited in comparison to the coding of a bot. Quite frankly if you have a botter and a non-botter in a room, and a good bot vs. a good claimer, who is going to win? The cahances when a non-botter wins are often a stroke of luck and nothing more, which is also why you see the claims about consistent claiming often being caused by a bot.

To Archibald:
1) Provide me a better ratio of win and lose chances if you do not find the terms of this game suitable. What you will find is that as long as your values (please warrant them) are not drastically in favor of a non-bot the utility values are still going show that botting is the most logical decision.
2) If you agree that it is ok to assume my game is running with a constant connection speed, why would a bot lose to a non-bot?
3) The major part that you are skating over or just not reading is that there is no way to enforce a contract which guarantees and binds people not to bot, without a significant mechanism it gives people absolutely no reason to not defect. If one person is defecting you are wasting your time by not defecting as well to level the playing field.

I have a remarkably good claim rate against botters, and I don't use one.

[chiz]

Think masturbation. Most everyone denies it, a lot would to the death, but everyone does it.

Uh, this isn't 1956, I don't think I've met a person yet who denies they masturbate. >.> Honestly, if I met someone today that says they don't masturbate I'd think they were a monk, a eunuch or a transvestite.

And ya, as covered in the other recent thread, I'm 99% sure our LS doesn't bot. We have a similar approach and claim rate to Mertron/Juvant's shell, we just focus on making camps more frequently. If conditions aren't favorable (NA primetime or if there's 100+ l337 kiddies running bots while masturbating, but denying it ofc), we focus our resources and time elsewhere.

Since Oct. 18th, we've dropped 2 Ridills, one on maintenance day and one a few days ago with 26 people in the pit (15 of which were ours), both botted amirite? I won back to back claims and I sure as hell have never botted. Last Ridill before that was almost 6 months ago when we dropped 4 in 10 days when we claimed 6 Fafnir uncontested. Botted amirite?

Similar to Eden, we've actually only claimed @50% of our Nidhogg kills, we just make the most of it when we actually get it. Funniest thing is that during that last thread on botting, the exact shit I was talking about went down....2 shitty botting LS taking turns cumswapping and wiping, 4-5 Eden claim at 1% and get the kill lmao. Grats on that one guys, though I wish I was there myself to try and claim. ;;

[Genosync]

To Ferien: Even if you are taking the claim delay into effect the amount of tweaking you can do inside of your macro is limited in comparison to the coding of a bot. Quite frankly if you have a botter and a non-botter in a room, and a good bot vs. a good claimer, who is going to win? The cahances when a non-botter wins are often a stroke of luck and nothing more, which is also why you see the claims about consistent claiming often being caused by a bot.

To Archibald:
1) Provide me a better ratio of win and lose chances if you do not find the terms of this game suitable. What you will find is that as long as your values (please warrant them) are not drastically in favor of a non-bot the utility values are still going show that botting is the most logical decision.
2) If you agree that it is ok to assume my game is running with a constant connection speed, why would a bot lose to a non-bot?
3) The major part that you are skating over or just not reading is that there is no way to enforce a contract which guarantees and binds people not to bot, without a significant mechanism it gives people absolutely no reason to not defect. If one person is defecting you are wasting your time by not defecting as well to level the playing field.

I have a remarkably good claim rate against botters, and I don't use one.

Apparently you don't go to Aery very much, and if you do?

Then you're just BSing again.

[Khamsin]

With the prevailing thoughts on this thread, the options may as well have been:

Do you claim?
Yes, I claim, or I know my linkshell does
No, I don't, and I'm as certain as you can get that my linkshell does not
I don't claim, and don't want to, but I think some in my linkshell might

[Stellar]

Assuming a legit claimer has a decent connection and the NM is easily targettable, a botter has almost no advantage 1 vs. 1. Even when there are 40 people in the pit, botters don't have much advantage. A botters advantage comes when there is a massive amount of people in the pit and the mob doesn't render for the majority. I have a great connection and play PS2 and with 100+ in the pit, typically Fafnir/Nidhogg takes a couple of minutes to load at all. In this scenario, a legit linkshell will have maybe 1-2 out of 18+ who will ever see the mob yellow. A linkshell with 2 botters would be twice as likely to claim, 4 botters 3x.. etc. And this is assuming the 1-2 people who manage to see the NM pop yellow know how to claim, manage to target in time and have a spell or JA capable of claiming in time. If a linkshell's botters work together and make various delay times with eachother, legit claimers chances of ever claiming are extremely low..

[Aodh]

Assuming a legit claimer has a decent connection and the NM is easily targettable, a botter has almost no advantage 1 vs. 1. Even when there are 40 people in the pit, botters don't have much advantage. A botters advantage comes when there is a massive amount of people in the pit and the mob doesn't render for the majority. I have a great connection and play PS2 and with 100+ in the pit, typically Fafnir/Nidhogg takes a couple of minutes to load at all. In this scenario, a legit linkshell will have maybe 1-2 out of 18+ who will ever see the mob yellow. A linkshell with 2 botters would be twice as likely to claim, 4 botters 3x.. etc. And this is assuming the 1-2 people who manage to see the NM pop yellow know how to claim, manage to target in time and have a spell or JA capable of claiming in time. If a linkshell's botters work together and make various delay times with eachother, legit claimers chances of ever claiming are extremely low..

That's pretty much the problem. PS2 and XB don't have the system support to render all the models in the pit when there are 50+ people there. PC still does. I usually switch to my laptop because XB menu's lag to hell and PS2 draws about 15-20 of the closet models, so you'd never, ever, see an HNM spawn. My laptop lets me see clear across the pit and 75% of the models are drawn I'd guess.

[Kurohyou]

That's pretty much the problem. PS2 and XB don't have the system support to render all the models in the pit when there are 50+ people there. PC still does. I usually switch to my laptop because XB menu's lag to hell and PS2 draws about 15-20 of the closet models, so you'd never, ever, see an HNM spawn. My laptop lets me see clear across the pit and 75% of the models are drawn I'd guess.

Sometimes I wish there was an option to make all other player characters unrendered beige rectangles so my computer can spend more time loading the important things. Like unclaimed mobs.

[Not not Mattaru]

Sometimes I wish there was an option to make all other player characters unrendered beige rectangles so my computer can spend more time loading the important things. Like unclaimed mobs.

Siriusly, I run it at biggreyblock Gameboy level alot and names off and it can take forever.

[shin]

...

Sometimes I wish there was an option to make all other player characters unrendered beige rectangles so my computer can spend more time loading the important things. Like unclaimed mobs.

log in with the jp windower and anything can be wireframe, flatshaded, or normal. You can turn pc models to wireframe and keep mob models intact. Can also wireframe or flatshade environment.

Grayish flatshaded Aery with wireframe pc and normal mob and its pretty easy to see faf.

[Kurohyou]

...

Sometimes I wish there was an option to make all other player characters unrendered beige rectangles so my computer can spend more time loading the important things. Like unclaimed mobs.

log in with the jp windower and anything can be wireframe, flatshaded, or normal. You can turn pc models to wireframe and keep mob models intact. Can also wireframe or flatshade environment.

Grayish flatshaded Aery with wireframe npc and normal mob and its pretty easy to see faf.

If I was gonna go through the trouble to track down the JP windower and fiddle with all those settings, why wouldn't I spend the effort looking for a copy of FFXI-App instead?

Can we add an option to the poll with something like, "I wouldn't mind botting if I wasn't too goddamn lazy to find one and/or figure out how it works"?

[Raineer]

With the prevailing thoughts on this thread, the options may as well have been:

Do you claim?
Yes, I claim, or I know my linkshell does
No, I don't, and I'm as certain as you can get that my linkshell does not
I don't claim, and don't want to, but I think some in my linkshell might

Yeah, this is actually more important lol

I tried all kinds at HNM, mostly because they let you be lazy. I never once, not ever got a successful claim using them (i was RDM, but still). I claimed 2 HNM's ever myself, and they were both way pre-patch, pre-bot...one Fafnir after a maint when no one had timer with dia, the other in Valley on Aspid with RDM/WAR lol

It was more a tool to make damn sure I didn't get a darter (yeah i left them in, i'm a mage).

[Ferien]

To Ferien: Even if you are taking the claim delay into effect the amount of tweaking you can do inside of your macro is limited in comparison to the coding of a bot. Quite frankly if you have a botter and a non-botter in a room, and a good bot vs. a good claimer, who is going to win? The cahances when a non-botter wins are often a stroke of luck and nothing more, which is also why you see the claims about consistent claiming often being caused by a bot.

Who said anything about a macro? Macros are probably the worst way to manually claim, because it doesn't allow for enough tweaking. A skilled manual claimer will be able to match the claim time with two hits from the menu.

To put it in perspective, the non-botters in my LSes have had a pretty solid record vs the botters. Bots make it easier, no question, but it's absolutely not impossible, which is what you were originally saying.

[Cheeks™]

The idea is that you can't manually claim what you can't see.
Bots can.

[Seebo]

lol I love how more than half the votes say they and their linkshells both don't bot. You're all going to hell you lying bastards.

[kamugi]

I usually don't have much to say and never make posts. But for this thread i would like to say my claim count for all to see. I was in paradiseoblivion(midgardsormr server) for about a year and a half, until about 3 months ago. I play on ps2 with a dsl modem and didnt even have access to a pc to play on until about 4 months ago when i got my laptop. I made about 85% of camps that po went to i'd say. PO camped kings almost every time possible. At the time the jp's were not to big on kings for the most part so kings stayed in NA time most of the time. So it comes down to i was there in da/bd/vos at least 60% of the time when kings could pop. Also, on my ps2/dsl if something spawned by me i would always see it unclaimed even before the claim delay patch. And well obviously, i'm on ps2 so i don't bot.

I've claimed or done an action at the same time as someone else on 4 fafnirs, 2 nidhoggs, 3 king behemoths, 2 nq behemoths, 1 adamantoise In that year and a half. (give or take 1 on faf/nq behemoth, i only kept real track on kings) Personally i consider myself a great claimer. But my record for claims is seriously lacking compaired to someone who would of botted for that year and a half. Since then i've claimed 1 aspid when there was maybe 10 people total mashing for it, and i got 1 nq behemoth when i was on my laptop for no reason. Take my comments as you like but thats the truth of what i have done.


EDIT: Personally i would be very interested to see a few botter's claim record over a year and half who were about as active at kings as i was.

[Zigma]

Kuno doesn't masturbate, he's a robot!