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  1. #1
    Black Belt
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    If this bullshit continues, I'm moving to Canada.

    Seriously, what the fuck.




    Forget no-fly lists. If Uncle Sam gets its way, beginning on Jan. 14,
    2007, we'll all be on no-fly lists, unless the government gives us
    permission to leave-or re-enter-the United States.

    The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (HSA) has proposed that all
    airlines, cruise lines-even fishing boats-be required to obtain
    clearance for each passenger they propose taking into or out of the
    United States.

    It doesn't matter if you have a U.S. Passport - a "travel document"
    that now, absent a court order to the contrary, gives you a virtually
    unqualified right to enter or leave the United States, any time you
    want. When the DHS system comes into effect next January, if the
    agency says "no" to a clearance request, or doesn't answer the
    request at all, you won't be permitted to enter-or leave-the United
    States.


    Consider what might happen if you're a U.S. passport holder on
    assignment in a country like Saudi Arabia. Your visa is about to
    expire, so you board your flight back to the United States. But wait!
    You can't get on, because you don't have permission from the HSA.
    Saudi immigration officials are on hand to escort you to a squalid
    detention center, where you and others who are now effectively
    "stateless persons" are detained, potentially indefinitely, until
    their immigration status is sorted out.

    Why might the HSA deny you permission to leave-or enter-the United
    States? No one knows, because the entire clearance procedure would be
    an administrative determination made secretly, with no right of
    appeal.
    Naturally, the decision would be made without a warrant,
    without probable cause and without even any particular degree of
    suspicion. Basically, if the HSA decides it doesn't like you, you're
    a prisoner - either outside, or inside, the United States, whether or
    not you hold a U.S. passport.

    The U.S. Supreme Court has long recognized there is a constitutional
    right to travel internationally. Indeed, it has declared that the
    right to travel is "a virtually unconditional personal right." The
    United States has also signed treaties guaranteeing "freedom of
    travel." So if these regulations do go into effect, you can expect a
    lengthy court battle, both nationally and internationally.

    Think this can't happen? Think again. It's ALREADY happening. Earlier
    this year, HSA forbade airlines from transporting an 18-year-old a
    native-born U.S. citizen, back to the United States. The prohibition
    lasted nearly six months until it was finally lifted a few weeks ago.
    Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are two countries in recent history
    that didn't allow their citizens to travel abroad without permission.
    If these regulations go into effect, you can add the United States to
    this list.

    For more information on this proposed regulation, see http://
    hasbrouck.org/IDP/IDP-APIS-comments.pdf.
    http://sianews.com/modules.php?name=New ... e&sid=3023

  2. #2
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    It'll never pass.. I hope.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totien
    It'll never pass.. I hope.
    I hope so too but with the bullshit thats been passing lately wtf? Why would they even propose such a thing.

  4. #4

    If the Patriot Act could come into law, I can see this happening.

    Someone tell the US government that there are better ways to "protect freedom" than to take it away.

  5. #5
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    America isn't 'free' anymore

  6. #6
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    waiting for quicket/joft to enter this thread

  7. #7
    CoP Dynamis
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    Zigma you sound like a terrorist! Love it or leave it!

  8. #8
    Sea Torques
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    CCCNP<3

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by text version of USCBP-2005-0003-0003
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Proposed Rule

    Under the manifest transmission time requirements of the existing
    APIS regulations, which mandate transmission of passenger manifests no
    later than 15 minutes after departure of an aircraft en route to the
    United States, CBP has the ability to fully vet commercial aircraft
    passenger information after the aircraft has departed. The
    identification of a high-risk passenger soon after the aircraft becomes
    airborne may result in the diversion of the aircraft to a U.S. port
    other than the original destination or the return of the aircraft to
    the port of departure (referred to as a ``turnback''). This action
    could prevent the hijacking of the aircraft and the potential use of
    the plane as a weapon of mass destruction against U.S. or other
    targets, and would enable CBP to detain, or arrange for the detention
    of, the high-risk passenger. The same results could be obtained with
    respect to aircraft departing from the United States when
    identification of a high-risk passenger occurs after the aircraft is
    airborne. This post-departure identification could occur since the APIS
    regulations require the transmission of manifests only 15 minutes prior
    to departure.

    However, high-risk passengers allowed to board before they have
    been fully vetted may pose a security risk for aircraft en route to or
    departing from the United States. A boarded high-risk passenger would
    have the opportunity to plant or retrieve a disassembled improvised
    explosive device or other weapon. The detonation of an explosive device
    could have devastating

    [[Page 40037]]

    consequences, both in terms of human life and from an economic
    perspective (damage to aircraft and airport infrastructure and any
    ripple effects on the airport's and the carrier's business and across
    the U.S. economy). Thus, requiring the collection and vetting of
    passenger information before the boarding of passengers on flights en
    route to or departing from the United States would allow CBP to
    identify high risk passengers before such passengers could pose a
    threat to fellow passengers or to the aircraft and airport.

    Therefore, CBP has concluded that the prevention of a high-risk
    passenger from boarding an aircraft is the appropriate level of
    security in the commercial air travel environment. Manifest data
    received and vetted prior to passenger boarding will enable CBP to
    attain this level of security. Further, this vetting of passengers on
    international flights should eliminate the need for passenger carriers
    to conduct watch list screening of these passengers, upon publication
    and implementation of a final rule. Accordingly, with this proposed
    rule, CBP is proposing two transmission options for air carriers to
    select from at their discretion: (i) the submission of complete
    manifests no later than 60 minutes prior to departure or (ii)
    transmitting passenger data as individual, real-time transactions,
    i.e., as each passenger checks in, up to but no later than 15 minutes
    prior to departure. Under both options, the carrier will not permit the
    boarding of a passenger unless the passenger has been cleared by CBP.

    With respect to the commercial vessel travel environment, CBP has
    determined that the appropriate level of security for departing vessels
    is to prevent vessel departures with a high-risk passenger or crew
    member onboard. Thus, the proposed rule requires vessel carriers to
    transmit complete manifests no later than 60 minutes prior to
    departure. An alternative procedure based on individual passenger/crew
    transactions, as is provided in the air travel environment to address a
    need for flexibility, is not offered given the generally less time-
    critical nature of the commercial vessel travel environment.
    Finally, with this rule, CBP also is proposing to change the
    definition of ``departure,'' as discussed immediately below.

    ~~~~~~~
    That is the actual rule proposal they are talking about, based on the Linked, on page two of The pdf it Links to

    Searching for the docket numbers it source, USCBP-2005-0003-0003/0005

    USCBP-2005-0003-0003

    USCBP-2005-0003-0005

    So from the actual rule, it looks like the DHS can say "No" to any person on a passenger list if you are deemed to much of a risk. Could be abused in theory, but I think its a tad overblown.

    The main "news" story's linked PDF is a PDF from activist groups that do not like the rule. I find it horribly telling that the actual rule is never quoted in the PDF, nor in the "News" story.

    *edit a link was wrong*

  10. #10
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    :/ guess this leaves out ever visiting relatives in egypt again. ;_;

  11. #11

    Soo wait... does this apply only to Americans that wants to go in and out of the USA, or also to the rest of the world that want to go to the USA as well (like tourism and such)?

  12. #12

    Well now your fucked. You know the government reads BG. you are allready on the no fly list.

  13. #13
    The Optimistic Asshole
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    I think the reason that this was brought up was because of this story

    http://www.securityfocus.com/brief/342

    Cliffs Notes Version:

    An Indiana doctoral student wanted to prove that anyone could very easily get passed airline security by making a fake boarding pass. He made a simple edittable template on a website to falsify the "no-fly list". Idea behind this was to prove that the airlines were not taking security seriously. FBI got a hold of this, smashed the dude's window, jacked the computers, and left a search warrent in the mess. A lolliberal from Mass urged the bush administration to arrest the guy and put him in prison. After he realized the guy was doing this to point out the problem, he released this statement...

    http://markey.house.gov/index.php?optio ... Itemid=125

  14. #14
    Ridill
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    yeah, fuckin liberals, admitting when they were wrong and shit, wtf

    I mean seriously who actually tries to fix their own mistakes

    what an asshole

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lylie
    Soo wait... does this apply only to Americans that wants to go in and out of the USA, or also to the rest of the world that want to go to the USA as well (like tourism and such)?
    Anyone, I think it is aimed more at non-Americans seeking to enter the country than American citizens.

  16. #16
    The Optimistic Asshole
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  17. #17
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    I don't get the outrage

    Basically is saying if someone is deemed really dangerous, they cant enter/leave the country without permission. Not like the airport gonna go OMG NO ENTERING CUZ U R MIDDLE EASTERNZ. Obviously, some qualifications would have to be met for these specific individuals. Not like this will get passed anyways.

    Quit all your fake outrage

  18. #18

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyche
    I think the reason that this was brought up was because of this story

    http://www.securityfocus.com/brief/342

    Cliffs Notes Version:

    An Indiana doctoral student wanted to prove that anyone could very easily get passed airline security by making a fake boarding pass. He made a simple edittable template on a website to falsify the "no-fly list". Idea behind this was to prove that the airlines were not taking security seriously. FBI got a hold of this, smashed the dude's window, jacked the computers, and left a search warrent in the mess. A lolliberal from Mass urged the bush administration to arrest the guy and put him in prison. After he realized the guy was doing this to point out the problem, he released this statement...

    http://markey.house.gov/index.php?optio ... Itemid=125
    So instead of getting the dude to work for them, or help them fix the loophole, they raid his house and steal everything? GG America :/

    I loved that part...
    The FBI first visited Soghoian's home on Friday and asked him to remove the site, but when he got online, he found the generator has already been taken down, the student said on his blog. The FBI returned early Saturday morning and raided Soghoian's home, taking computers and other equipment and leaving behind a search warrant. Soghoian had decided not to sleep at home that night.

    "I came back today, to find the glass on the front door smashed," he said on his blog. "Inside, is a rather ransacked home, a search warrant taped to my kitchen table, a total absence of computers and various other important things."

  19. #19
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demosthenes11
    I don't get the outrage

    Basically is saying if someone is deemed really dangerous, they cant enter/leave the country without permission. Not like the airport gonna go OMG NO ENTERING CUZ U R MIDDLE EASTERNZ. Obviously, some qualifications would have to be met for these specific individuals. Not like this will get passed anyways.

    Quit all your fake outrage
    Did you even read the post?

    Consider what might happen if you're a U.S. passport holder on
    assignment in a country like Saudi Arabia. Your visa is about to
    expire, so you board your flight back to the United States. But wait!
    You can't get on, because you don't have permission from the HSA.
    Saudi immigration officials are on hand to escort you to a squalid
    detention center, where you and others who are now effectively
    "stateless persons" are detained, potentially indefinitely, until
    their immigration status is sorted out.
    Gee, why would that upset people?

    Especially since...

    the entire clearance procedure would be
    an administrative determination made secretly, with no right of
    appeal

  20. #20
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lylie
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyche
    I think the reason that this was brought up was because of this story

    http://www.securityfocus.com/brief/342

    Cliffs Notes Version:

    An Indiana doctoral student wanted to prove that anyone could very easily get passed airline security by making a fake boarding pass. He made a simple edittable template on a website to falsify the "no-fly list". Idea behind this was to prove that the airlines were not taking security seriously. FBI got a hold of this, smashed the dude's window, jacked the computers, and left a search warrent in the mess. A lolliberal from Mass urged the bush administration to arrest the guy and put him in prison. After he realized the guy was doing this to point out the problem, he released this statement...

    http://markey.house.gov/index.php?optio ... Itemid=125
    So instead of getting the dude to work for them, or help them fix the loophole, they raid his house and steal everything? GG America :/

    I loved that part...
    The FBI first visited Soghoian's home on Friday and asked him to remove the site, but when he got online, he found the generator has already been taken down, the student said on his blog. The FBI returned early Saturday morning and raided Soghoian's home, taking computers and other equipment and leaving behind a search warrant. Soghoian had decided not to sleep at home that night.

    "I came back today, to find the glass on the front door smashed," he said on his blog. "Inside, is a rather ransacked home, a search warrant taped to my kitchen table, a total absence of computers and various other important things."
    WTF Americans can't read minds??!! GG AMERICA GG!

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