Drk weapon question

[Beckwin]

You just have to try harder and your Gekkos do more. Yuki and Kasha have lower HotC multipliers than Gekko, which you can see by examining the pDIF/fSTR quotient times the truncated DPS of a given weapon, which St.Ghobli refers to at "TrpCd." A good way to test the HotC multiplier in-game is by weaponskilling someone in Ballista who is wearing a Zenith Body and counting BE-WD procs.

[Ryko]

ATTENTION DUELISTS, MY HAIR TOTALLY IS NOT LEADING US INTO A SPIKE FLAIL.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

You just have to try harder and your Gekkos do more. Yuki and Kasha have lower HotC multipliers than Gekko, which you can see by examining the pDIF/fSTR quotient times the truncated DPS of a given weapon, which St.Ghobli refers to at "TrpCd." A good way to test the HotC multiplier in-game is by weaponskilling someone in Ballista who is wearing a Zenith Body and counting BE-WD procs.

See but the pLofT and QWerT ratios balance out your HotC multipliers and the hFad of Kasha decimates the eGad of the other two, but its unnoticable unless your monster's vit falls into the 'rmv set' of vit values and the mLev > ipFreely.

AND DONT EVEN TALK TO ME ABOUT qFtru!

[Beckwin]

Screw the equations, I have egomania.

[Ishido]

Screw the equations, I have egomania.

But gekko does more than kasha. IN AMERICA!

[chiz]

I don't get it though, if the WS equations are the same when they're capped then how would they be any different on anything else? I don't really know of any WS (other than wierd ones like spirits/moonlight/etc) that could perform that way and still follow what is agreed to be the standard WS equation.

Because in a controlled test where you are specifically trying to fix WS variables and isolate any differences, that's exactly what you're going to get, consistency. However, the only reason you are performing the tests in those conditions to begin with is because there are variables (pDIF and fSTR) that are uncontrollable and unknown in practical applications.

There are other WS besides the "weird ones", as I covered earlier, that would in fact alter pDIF depending on TP when WS is used or the level of the mob you are testing on. Viper Bite doubles attack, Wheeling Thrust (Piercing Arrow etc. as well) ignores % of defense depending on TP, and True Strike either deals critical damage (or as theorized recently grants a +1.0 bonus to pDIF that can stack with critical).

What's this actually mean? On a WS like Wheeling Thrust where the fTP multipliers are identical (1.75x) from 100-300TP, testing on L3-5 bunnies where your pDIF is already naturally capped will yield no difference in damage from 100-300TP. Yet, in situations where pDIF isn't capped, there is clearly a difference between the damage based on TP which would affirm the WS description that the WS ignores defense based on TP. Based on your testing on L3-5 mobs in capped situations, you'd be willing to assume there's no difference in fTP for Wheeling Thrust?

On top of that, there have been comparisons (although not sure what you define as rigiurous) done by SAMs themselves already... All the SAMs you have seen that argue how ridiculous it is to think that there really is a difference between the three WS actually used them rather than Gekko 99% of the time, and in the old topic when this was first brought up there was a few of them in addition to me.

Already covered this with Aurik. Unless the SAMs are never SC'ing, that's a pretty narrow-minded opinion that other SAMs aren't bothering to use the WS to determine which is actually better. If they are SC'ing, all 3 WS should be seeing equal opportunity depending on what's needed and the mob you're fighting. Kasha opens/closes the always popular light SC, Gekko opens/closes the less popular darkness SC, but is also prominently used when a light SC isn't possible and Fragmentation is used instead. Yuki would be the least used but is still far from ignored by any SAM expected to SC (which is its forte anyways).

I'm actually in an exp PT right now and while making this post I used four Tachi: Yukikaze in a row for the hell of it (with 300% TP). All of them were over 1k as SAM/WAR (on 2 puks, a mamool, and a skoffin), which is the same damage range I'd normally have with Gekko/Kasha. If I can find them, I'd be happy to post an 800 damage /WAR Yukikaze on Fafnir, 9xx /THF on Ouryu (no songs), and a few 1.5+s just from random situations... All of which are like 5 months old or longer on a downside, so not sure if I'd really be able to find them considering I'd have to filter through around 4k screens.

And that would be more of a rigorous test confirming the WS are in fact the same, if you performed each WS X-number of times in roughly the same situation and circumstances and found there was little variance in high/low WS #s and average damage. I've already acknowledged Kasha and Yuki can hit the same high damage numbers you see for Gekko, which simply confirms the cap values for fTP have the same potential for all 3 WS. However, any such results would be imperfect and could easily be discounted as "gut feeling" or "faith" even when you yourself brought up the point "that Kaiten fluctuates often in a large range while the other WS are more consistant, and they both seem come out to similar averages. Kaiten also seems to have both the lowest lows and the highest peaks."

But in either case, the score is 2 v 0 still... The actual WS equations support them being the same, and so do the results I just posted, and there's no solid evidence against either of those other than what it 'feels' like.

The score is 2 v 0 depending where you sit. Again, referring to VZX and Studio Goblii, there's enough speculation to justify a comment about the WS being inconsistent. 2 v 1. In my own observations and testing, I've seen Gekko performing more consistently than Yuki even in side-by-side comparisons against the same mob regardless of who is using what. 2 v 2. We parsed 2-3 Ouryu a few months ago and there was actually a thread about it on our forums. I didn't save the parse, not sure if someone else did, but it was more along the lines of whether SMN or SAM did more damage overall. In those parses though, the SAM using Gekko outperformed the one using Yuki, and although it wasn't a huge amount (7k vs. 7.5-7.7k iirc), it was enough to question whether the two WS were in fact the same in terms of damage.

Arguing that the general SAM body believes it's one way isn't really evidence of much. The general SAM body doesn't even know the WS equations are, and don't use anything other than Gekko 90% of the time (I have pickup PTs with them all the time, and that line especially is true).

Again, partly myth becoming legend and legend becoming reality but that still doesn't explain people's preference when given equal opportunity to use all 3 WS. And again, it doesn't explain the glaring omission of frapsworthy SS with Yuki and Kasha vs. Gekko, which to me is a surprise. I've done plenty of Yuki and Kasha that affirm the potential damage of all 3 WS are the same, but I've also done enough 200-300 TP WS that fell short of what I was expecting based on my experiences with Gekko in similar situations.

[Kyreth]

Screw the equations, I have egomania.

But gekko does more than kasha. IN AMERICA!

Braaaiins.

(You guys are nuts, lol)

[XxSlusherxx]

I didn't save the parse, not sure if someone else did, but it was more along the lines of whether SMN or SAM did more damage overall. In those parses though, the SAM using Gekko outperformed the one using Yuki, and although it wasn't a huge amount (7k vs. 7.5-7.7k iirc), it was enough to question whether the two WS were in fact the same in terms of damage.

If the Parce credits Fragmentation bonus to the closing SAM, which a lot of them do, that could easily add up to 500-700 dmg.

[chiz]

I didn't save the parse, not sure if someone else did, but it was more along the lines of whether SMN or SAM did more damage overall. In those parses though, the SAM using Gekko outperformed the one using Yuki, and although it wasn't a huge amount (7k vs. 7.5-7.7k iirc), it was enough to question whether the two WS were in fact the same in terms of damage.

If the Parce credits Fragmentation bonus to the closing SAM, which a lot of them do, that could easily add up to 500-700 dmg.

I'll have to double check, but I'm pretty sure Spyle's parser has any SC effects listed separately on summary as essentially another player.

[Lithiani]

The other thing is that if one SAM is always using Yuki, and the other is always using Gekko, your parse could be showing the difference between the 2 SAM, not the difference between the two WS.

[NynJa]

well...let me say this then:

if the WS forumula is drasically changed when using WS's on lv0 bunnies and lv80 mobs, then the entire thing must be scrapped.

[Ryko]

That makes no sense.

[NynJa]

well chiz said those screenies rukenshin not rykoshet, posted of 1485 yuki/gekko/kasha are invalid because they're on lv0 bunnies, and the WS forumula changes on mobs that are higher lvl.

[RKenshin]

There are other WS besides the "weird ones", as I covered earlier, that would in fact alter pDIF depending on TP when WS is used or the level of the mob you are testing on. Viper Bite doubles attack, Wheeling Thrust (Piercing Arrow etc. as well) ignores % of defense depending on TP, and True Strike either deals critical damage (or as theorized recently grants a +1.0 bonus to pDIF that can stack with critical).

What's this actually mean? On a WS like Wheeling Thrust where the fTP multipliers are identical (1.75x) from 100-300TP, testing on L3-5 bunnies where your pDIF is already naturally capped will yield no difference in damage from 100-300TP. Yet, in situations where pDIF isn't capped, there is clearly a difference between the damage based on TP which would affirm the WS description that the WS ignores defense based on TP. Based on your testing on L3-5 mobs in capped situations, you'd be willing to assume there's no difference in fTP for Wheeling Thrust?

Except in those weapon skills it says in the actual description that they ignore defense, deal critical damage, double attack, etc... All of them say something to hint at there being something more to their WS equations. There's nothing about Gekko ignoring defense in the description that Kasha and Yuki lack. They're all the same WS, with the same description, but different additional effects.

So, I fail to see how the examples you provided do anything other than support my argument. All you basically did was show how those weapon skills actually did what their description says they do... Which, would support further that Gekko/Kasha/Yuki all are the same since they have the same descriptions as well as the same WS equations, and the same damage in a capped situation.

Unless you show me a WS that does not have a weird WS description, but does in fact follow a different WS equation, it doesn’t mean anything.

Already covered this with Aurik. Unless the SAMs are never SC'ing, that's a pretty narrow-minded opinion that other SAMs aren't bothering to use the WS to determine which is actually better. If they are SC'ing, all 3 WS should be seeing equal opportunity depending on what's needed and the mob you're fighting. Kasha opens/closes the always popular light SC, Gekko opens/closes the less popular darkness SC, but is also prominently used when a light SC isn't possible and Fragmentation is used instead. Yuki would be the least used but is still far from ignored by any SAM expected to SC(which is its forte anyways).

This couldn't be any more false... Are you really suggesting that SAMs are used in SCs on like every HNM? And evenly used in SCs for Yuki/Gekko/Kasha?

First of all, honestly... What HNM linkshells here still live by SCs on every single HNM? The only HNMs I know of where people even attempt to SC on purpose more than once is Fafnir/Nidhogg, and a majority of the HNM shells don't even bother with them. Most people don't SC gods anymore, most people don't SC Jailers, most people don't SC CoP Wyrms, most people don't SC Kirin, most people don't SC Bahamut, or Kirin, or AV, and most people don’t SC exp/dynamis/limbus mobs... Etc.

In all those situations a SAM will mostly be a DD, not a SC maker. And what WS do you think they use? Gekko because it looks cool (and because of the misconception it’s better). On top of that, Kasha is used to make Light more often than not on Fafnir/Nidhogg, and on Ouryu (the only other HNM my LS actually tries to SC on) we normally make Darkness. As I said before, Gekko is used the most by a long shot, Kasha is used occasionally, and Yukikaze is used the least by the general SAM body. So duh, common math and statistics will tell you that you’ll see more high damage shots with Gekko than any other WS.

Second, yes I’ll even go as far as saying most SAMs aren’t bothering to try and determine which is actually better. Have you seen any in debt tests about this? How often do you see someone actually testing equipment thoroughly to see what is better? The majority of the people in this game don’t give a shit, and I don’t understand how that isn’t obvious to you. Compare the number of posts with people asking “what is better? STR? Hecatomb? DEX? Attack” to the number of posts with people saying “so I spent 12 hours testing xxx vs xxx and this is the result.” I only know of a handful of people that actually bother to test equipment, everyone else just asks everyone else or follows the crowd.

However, any such results would be imperfect and could easily be discounted as "gut feeling" or "faith" even when you yourself brought up the point "that Kaiten fluctuates often in a large range while the other WS are more consistant, and they both seem come out to similar averages. Kaiten also seems to have both the lowest lows and the highest peaks."

I also made it very clear that I could be completely wrong, because this was only based on the observations of a single exp PT. I have no doubt that my WS average is a lot higher since getting Amanomurakumo, but at the same time I did gain 13 base damage over Hagun and also finished my GK merits.

When I made that statement, I wasn’t comparing Kaiten to my hundreds or whatever number of weapon skills I’ve done before with Hagun… I was comparing Kaiten, which has a pretty wide range of 900-1400 without DA and the same buffs, to the other three WS that tended to float between 900-1200 the 10 or so times I used them in that PT. In the end, that observation means very little in the grand scale since it’s based on such a small amount of information.

We parsed 2-3 Ouryu a few months ago and there was actually a thread about it on our forums. I didn't save the parse, not sure if someone else did, but it was more along the lines of whether SMN or SAM did more damage overall. In those parses though, the SAM using Gekko outperformed the one using Yuki, and although it wasn't a huge amount (7k vs. 7.5-7.7k iirc), it was enough to question whether the two WS were in fact the same in terms of damage.

I don’t even know why I have to point this out, but there are a billion other factors that could affect that.

Unless those two SAMs had the exact same melee gear, had the exact same WS gear, had the exact same merits, same food, engage and disengaged at the exact same time, had the same exact luck with the ‘dice roll’ system in this game (aka, didn’t get unlucky with shitty WS numbers/acc just from low rolls), had the same exact buffs at all times, used Meditate at the same time, WS the same number of times, had the same exact TP for each WS, etc… Then that small difference really means nothing, and I’m 110% sure that the above didn’t apply as it’s nearly impossible.

Sure, I could go do the same test if you want. I’ll take a just-got-75 SAM with no merits and poor equip, and we’ll go fight Ouryu and I’ll use nothing but Tachi:Yukikaze and we’ll see who does the most damage. It’s not like the results would be in favor of me, right?

I don’t get how you would question which WS is better over such a small difference… Like 4-5 BLMs in my LS have almost the exact same gear/merits, and yet every parse their damage is different. Does that mean I should question where they're standing when they nuke? Because apparently, that would be the only way to explain them doing different damage?

It’s very common for people to perform differently even under the same conditions.

Again, partly myth becoming legend and legend becoming reality but that still doesn't explain people's preference when given equal opportunity to use all 3 WS. And again, it doesn't explain the glaring omission of frapsworthy SS with Yuki and Kasha vs. Gekko, which to me is a surprise. I've done plenty of Yuki and Kasha that affirm the potential damage of all 3 WS are the same, but I've also done enough 200-300 TP WS that fell short of what I was expecting based on my experiences with Gekko in similar situations.

I don’t get it; you really do believe that people use Yukikaze as much as Gekko and Kasha? I can honestly say, in all my 240 or so merits and recapping buffers, I’ve never seen a SAM purposely use Tachi:Yukikaze in 75 exp. I very rarely see Tachi:Kasha, and without exaggerating around 90% of the time they’re using Gekko. How is that balanced? The same applies for any HNMs, all SAMs use Gekko and maybe Kasha, but never Yukikaze if they don’t have to. Even for making SCs, Gekko is most popular, Kasha is second, and Yuki is way behind.

Saying that Gekko is better because there are more frapped screens of damage of it, when the fact is that people use Gekko 90% of the time… Is as ridiculous as me saying “Ok, I’m going to wear a Scorpion Harness for 90% of this exp PT when I use Rampage… Then I’m going to wear Adaman Hauberk for 8% of the WS, and Haubergeon +1 for 2% of the WS.” Then at the end of a 3-4h PT, odds are your ‘fraps worthy damage’ will be while using Scorp Harness. Does that mean Evasion is a factor in your Rampage damage? I guess it does according to that method of thinking!

Hurry, spread the news to the Alla WAR forum. Rampage damage is effected by Evasion, and I'm going to prove it by doing the above! Who the hell merits Sword/Axe/Great Axe? Real WARs merit Evasion for massive Rampage damage.

[Freight]

^lol, owned. nothing more to say really

[chiz]

Except in those weapon skills it says in the actual description that they ignore defense, deal critical damage, double attack, etc... All of them say something to hint at there being something more to their WS equations. There's nothing about Gekko ignoring defense in the description that Kasha and Yuki lack. They're all the same WS, with the same description, but different additional effects.

Nah, it was a clear example where you can't hide behind the published WS formula testing in capped situations if that's all you're looking to prove.

But I'll give you another example, which would also be in reply to Nynja's various posts before yours. You could add 8 GKT merits, get the same damage stabbing your L3 bunnies before the merits, and then you'd assume those 8 merits and 16 skill points don't increase your damage? You could, but you'd be wrong.

So, I fail to see how the examples you provided do anything other than support my argument. All you basically did was show how those weapon skills actually did what their description says they do... Which, would support further that Gekko/Kasha/Yuki all are the same since they have the same descriptions as well as the same WS equations, and the same damage in a capped situation.

I used them to illustrate that capped situations aren't going to tell you anything more than what you want to see and it did just that. For the most part, WS and ability descriptions are vague at best and oftentimes omit important information about the ability itself. They're helpful in offering guidelines and expectations, and in some instances, clarification, but thats about it. Some examples of inaccurate/incomplete descriptions would be Sidewinder, Souleater, and certain multi-hit WS to name a few.

Unless you show me a WS that does not have a weird WS description, but does in fact follow a different WS equation, it doesn’t mean anything.

I never questioned the WS formula since it holds true consistently. Your tests however, do not.

This couldn't be any more false... Are you really suggesting that SAMs are used in SCs on like every HNM? And evenly used in SCs for Yuki/Gekko/Kasha?

Nope, but are you really suggesting in 5 years of FFXI SAMs never SC'd and everyone just TP Burned HNMs?

First of all, honestly... What HNM linkshells here still live by SCs on every single HNM? The only HNMs I know of where people even attempt to SC on purpose more than once is Fafnir/Nidhogg, and a majority of the HNM shells don't even bother with them. Most people don't SC gods anymore, most people don't SC Jailers, most people don't SC CoP Wyrms, most people don't SC Kirin, most people don't SC Bahamut, or Kirin, or AV, and most people don’t SC exp/dynamis/limbus mobs... Etc.

You're right, most don't.....anymore. But there was a time they did, and I'm sure there were a few SAMs right in the middle of those fights expected to make a SC other than Reverberation. I guess we'll just throw out 5 years of history (and anecdotal evidence) because it doesn't suit our tastes today?

In all those situations a SAM will mostly be a DD, not a SC maker. And what WS do you think they use? Gekko because it looks cool (and because of the misconception it’s better).

That misconception is based on something, although it might not involve L3 rabbits. Any L75 SAM would have used all 3 WS at some point on their way to 75 before deciding which of the 3 they preferred even if they never made another SC after 75.

On top of that, Kasha is used to make Light more often than not on Fafnir/Nidhogg

Which directly contradicts your earlier statement no one ever SCs and therefore, there is no opportunity to use the other WS. Realistically, Fafnir/Nidhogg is killed more often than any other HNM you mentioned above giving the most opportunity to see any differences in WS, which is why I mentioned it in some of my previous posts. I actually see as many Gekko and Yuki as Kasha though, since some shells SC with nothing but SAMs (and/or WAR) to make Fragmentation.

and on Ouryu (the only other HNM my LS actually tries to SC on) we normally make Darkness. As I said before, Gekko is used the most by a long shot, Kasha is used occasionally, and Yukikaze is used the least by the general SAM body. So duh, common math and statistics will tell you that you’ll see more high damage shots with Gekko than any other WS.

Again, hen and egg situation. You think people choose Gekko because it looks cool, and therefore, the majority of WS performed are going to be Gekko. I think people used all 3 (forced to at some point or another), found a preference, and stuck with it.

Second, yes I’ll even go as far as saying most SAMs aren’t bothering to try and determine which is actually better. Have you seen any in debt tests about this? How often do you see someone actually testing equipment thoroughly to see what is better? The majority of the people in this game don’t give a shit, and I don’t understand how that isn’t obvious to you. Compare the number of posts with people asking “what is better? STR? Hecatomb? DEX? Attack” to the number of posts with people saying “so I spent 12 hours testing xxx vs xxx and this is the result.” I only know of a handful of people that actually bother to test equipment, everyone else just asks everyone else or follows the crowd.

I agree about most people being too lazy to find the optimal set-ups for any given situation, but in this case, its irrelevant. They don't need to change anything other than what button they press for WS, so their results are going to be relative only to themselves.

I also made it very clear that I could be completely wrong, because this was only based on the observations of a single exp PT. I have no doubt that my WS average is a lot higher since getting Amanomurakumo, but at the same time I did gain 13 base damage over Hagun and also finished my GK merits.

And if you got similar results time and time again what would you conclude? That the WS formula was wrong? That there's something wrong with Kaiten's WS formula? That even though its multiplier indicates it should do more than Gekko/Yuki/Kasha all the time, its inconsistent? Where have I seen that terminology before..........but wait! It always does the same damage to L3 rabbits......

When I made that statement, I wasn’t comparing Kaiten to my hundreds or whatever number of weapon skills I’ve done before with Hagun… I was comparing Kaiten, which has a pretty wide range of 900-1400 without DA and the same buffs, to the other three WS that tended to float between 900-1200 the 10 or so times I used them in that PT. In the end, that observation means very little in the grand scale since it’s based on such a small amount of information.

Its actually very significant, since based on the published fTP multipliers Kasha/Yuki/Gekko shouldn't be doing anywhere close to Kaiten's damage unless you were performing them every time at 200+ TP with Amano.

I don’t even know why I have to point this out, but there are a billion other factors that could affect that.

Unless those two SAMs had the exact same melee gear, had the exact same WS gear, had the exact same merits, same food, engage and disengaged at the exact same time, had the same exact luck with the ‘dice roll’ system in this game (aka, didn’t get unlucky with shitty WS numbers/acc just from low rolls), had the same exact buffs at all times, used Meditate at the same time, WS the same number of times, had the same exact TP for each WS, etc… Then that small difference really means nothing, and I’m 110% sure that the above didn’t apply as it’s nearly impossible.

Sure, I could go do the same test if you want. I’ll take a just-got-75 SAM with no merits and poor equip, and we’ll go fight Ouryu and I’ll use nothing but Tachi:Yukikaze and we’ll see who does the most damage. It’s not like the results would be in favor of me, right?

And I acknowledged the flaws of the test, however, the results were similar when the SAMs switched WS in the next fight.

I don’t get how you would question which WS is better over such a small difference… Like 4-5 BLMs in my LS have almost the exact same gear/merits, and yet every parse their damage is different. Does that mean I should question where they're standing when they nuke? Because apparently, that would be the only way to explain them doing different damage?

It wasn't just based on the parse, we had plenty of time to compare how much each WS did when Ouryu was flying. Same situation in Aery sitting and watching 2-3 SAMs make Fragmentation. Gekko did more than Yuki, no surprise, move along, get ToD.

It’s very common for people to perform differently even under the same conditions.

Right, but its uncommon for the same person to perform differently under the same conditions. Most people benchmark their performance and take all conditions into account so that they can improve upon or replicate their results in the future. Sure, there's variance (its not like testing on RNG, anyways), but there's also things you can look for as a melee.

I don’t get it; you really do believe that people use Yukikaze as much as Gekko and Kasha? I can honestly say, in all my 240 or so merits and recapping buffers, I’ve never seen a SAM purposely use Tachi:Yukikaze in 75 exp. I very rarely see Tachi:Kasha, and without exaggerating around 90% of the time they’re using Gekko. How is that balanced? The same applies for any HNMs, all SAMs use Gekko and maybe Kasha, but never Yukikaze if they don’t have to. Even for making SCs, Gekko is most popular, Kasha is second, and Yuki is way behind.

Covered earlier, except you said Kasha is predominantly used on the only HNM worth SC'ing.

Saying that Gekko is better because there are more frapped screens of damage of it, when the fact is that people use Gekko 90% of the time… Is as ridiculous as me saying “Ok, I’m going to wear a Scorpion Harness for 90% of this exp PT when I use Rampage… Then I’m going to wear Adaman Hauberk for 8% of the WS, and Haubergeon +1 for 2% of the WS.” Then at the end of a 3-4h PT, odds are your ‘fraps worthy damage’ will be while using Scorp Harness. Does that mean Evasion is a factor in your Rampage damage? I guess it does according to that method of thinking!

Except you'd think with thousands of samples, that 8% and 2% might produce a single SS in the pictures forum. I don't recall seeing one.

Hurry, spread the news to the Alla WAR forum. Rampage damage is effected by Evasion, and I'm going to prove it by doing the above! Who the hell merits Sword/Axe/Great Axe? Real WARs merit Evasion for massive Rampage damage.

Sounds good, we could also start a topic about how Merits don't increase damage.......

Also, if anyone has a link on how to fix Spyle's parser that'd help a lot. I remember seeing a fix somewhere by simply editing a line or two but it'd help a ton in performing any rigorous testing. Gonna try to see if I can get some testing done tonite after sea.

[aurik]

gum flapping and still no data

Good for you, you might as well have typed an essay on how you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and His Noodly Appendage is why gekko is better. Go out there and prove it instead of wasting our time with elaborate rebuttals where you do nothing but dodge the fact that you nor anyone else has any hard data that show anything but that the WSes are calculated exactly the same way.

To be honest, your "gut feelings" don't have the greatest track record, if I recall correctly.

[Zalius]

this thread needs a "Battle of the Relicwielders" subtitle

[NynJa]

longshot theory number one: Gekko > Kasha = Yuki on Ouryu
gekko sam did best damage to ouryu because gekko is wind based (silence), compared to kasha's ice base (Paralyze) and yuki's dark base (blind). Seeing as how Ouryu is earth based, wind delivers most.

longshot theory number two: Gekko > Kasha > Yukikaze
It is a common conception that quested WS's lick balls, or are subpar when placed next to their respective 220 WS's. This places Gekko above Kasha. Gekko is also placed above Yukikaze because "yukikaze is a LV60 WS".

Longshot theory number three: lack of whm SJ
Nynja uses WHM SJ everywhere he goes, and that makes WHM SJ the best SJ of all, even for DD's.

[Xrave]

On the topic of Catastrophe and the reportedly low numbers, there was testing posted by UNCTGTG (or whatever his name is) on Catastrophe using the INT/AGI modifiers and STR.

During his tests it was shown that equipping STR on the WS actually decreased the damage compared to doing the WS naked, whereas stacking all AGI/INT and no STR greatly increased overall WS damage.

If I remember right since it's been a while since I saw the post, using 40-50 AGI and INT and no STR was pushing his Catastrophe's up to a constant 1500ish damage or so (and this wasn't including the extra ~50% drain effect after the WS to make each close to 2000 damage).

The testing was posted on the KI Drk forums and could probably be found with searching.

As to the question of Kraken vs Apocalypse, I can only see the Kraken being more useful to HNMs. In my LS at least I'm cycled out every 5 min when Souleater is up to do damage, regardless of whether or not Bloodweapon is ready. With decent enough heals I can probably safely say I'd be doing more damage overall (around 10k damage every 5 min when no 2hr is up) than if I was in the entire time using an Apocalypse even though I don't have an Apocalypse to test.

In addition me only rotating in once every 5 min for the 1 minute duration of Souleater allows Sams, Wars, whatever other job to come in to do additional damage while my Souleater is recharging.

However if you're not taking part of the HNM scene, the Apocalypse's benefit would probably outweight that of the Kraken since a Kraken isn't exactly a great tool for xp.