Drk weapon question

[aurik]

I wasn't aware that UNC even finished his scythe.

Edit: does the blood-weapon aftereffect of Catastrophe stay if you change weapons? If so, SE->Catastrophe->kraken could be a powerful combo...

[Xrave]

I believe he did the WS tests in Dynamis with his level 4 scythe.

So unless level 4 and 5 change the actual damage equation of the WS, the tests should be valid.

[Lithiani]

On the topic of Catastrophe and the reportedly low numbers, there was testing posted by UNCTGTG (or whatever his name is) on Catastrophe using the INT/AGI modifiers and STR.

During his tests it was shown that equipping STR on the WS actually decreased the damage compared to doing the WS naked, whereas stacking all AGI/INT and no STR greatly increased overall WS damage.

o_O

Is it a magical damage WS?

Side note: I wonder if any other relics have a negative stat

[aurik]

Level 4 and 5 differ because you can do a more controlled test outside of Dynamis. I highly, highly doubt str is a negative modifier.

[DiSifer]

It's not that its a negative modifier, the damage added by substituting STR vs. AGI/INT is lower with a lower cap, I remember that post also and took it that way, not that it lowered damage.

[aurik]

Well it helps to read what the person wrote:

During his tests it was shown that equipping STR on the WS actually decreased the damage compared to doing the WS naked

He is saying that +STR = -dmg.

[DiSifer]

I read it, I'm talking UNCs' original post, the way he wrote his post it seemed that he was indicating it was a lower cap in dmg., not that it actually decreased the damage. I don't remember him saying Naked vs. Adding STR is why, I think I have the post bookmarked, I'll check if I do and re-read it.

[Xrave]

I'm almost positive he posted that adding STR when naked lowered his numbers.

I'm trying to use the search function on KI as we speak, but it's not exactly the most reliable tool.

[aurik]

UNC's not the brightest of apples in the basket anyway.

[DiSifer]

Yeah, I don't have it bookmarked, but I think I remember close to the thread name, will check back when I find it unless X does before me.

[Moochi]

The HP drain from Catastrophe doesn't do additional damage also.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

I wasn't aware that UNC even finished his scythe.

Edit: does the blood-weapon aftereffect of Catastrophe stay if you change weapons? If so, SE->Catastrophe->kraken could be a powerful combo...

The aftereffect is haste, the drain is just on the WS. So even then it works well with Kclub if it sticks around. I do doubt it does though, since its a 'buffless' my guess is its more coded as a hidden latent effect in the weapon. I would say the easiest way to test would have tekki (or any excal user) try his regen from excaliber. It will likely apply to all of the relics.

[RKenshin]

But I'll give you another example, which would also be in reply to Nynja's various posts before yours. You could add 8 GKT merits, get the same damage stabbing your L3 bunnies before the merits, and then you'd assume those 8 merits and 16 skill points don't increase your damage? You could, but you'd be wrong.

So basically you’re implying that Tachi: Gekko could secretly up your attack rating to a value higher than what it would be with Kasha/Yuki… If that were true, whose to say any of the WS equations are worth a dime if all weapon skills have that potential hidden effect?

I used them to illustrate that capped situations aren't going to tell you anything more than what you want to see and it did just that. For the most part, WS and ability descriptions are vague at best and oftentimes omit important information about the ability itself. They're helpful in offering guidelines and expectations, and in some instances, clarification, but thats about it. Some examples of inaccurate/incomplete descriptions would be Sidewinder, Souleater, and certain multi-hit WS to name a few.

I don’t understand, how are those WS descriptions omitting any important information? If damage is enhanced by TP, then the more TP you have the more damage you do. If accuracy is enhanced by TP, then the more TP you have the more damage you do. If it ignores defense based on TP, the more TP you have the more defense you ignore. For most situations all of the above will apply.

Sidewinder is a high damage but inaccurate shot, hit-rate is influenced by TP, and there’s nothing more to it. I don’t know of any multi-hit WS that apparently don’t follow their description… And Souleater is an ability and in a completely different area. We’re talking about WS damage, not abilities/traits/spells/anything else.

Nope, but are you really suggesting in 5 years of FFXI SAMs never SC'd and everyone just TP Burned HNMs?

Not a good argument, the whole epeen and “I’m going to post the damage I do!” wasn’t as big as it is now back then. The gear of the average player back then was also much worse. It’s only become such a big deal over the most recent years, and it’s obvious as the number of epeen ‘postyourdamagexz1!@’ threads only started and recently years and has grown more and more over time.

Regardless, the fact still remains that in an overwhelming majority of the situations over the last few years, a SAM will be spamming weapon skills more than they SC. And even when they do, Gekko is used most frequently followed by Kasha, and in dead last is Yuki.

You're right, most don't.....anymore. But there was a time they did, and I'm sure there were a few SAMs right in the middle of those fights expected to make a SC other than Reverberation. I guess we'll just throw out 5 years of history (and anecdotal evidence) because it doesn't suit our tastes today?

What evidence? I don’t see any evidence… You want me to go back a few years? OK!

A few years ago… No one knows what the hell weapon equations are. The most common belief is that Yukikaze sucks because it looks shitty and makes shitty SCs and most SAM don’t even use it since Enpi is better until Gekko SC wise, Gekko is the first real WS to SAMs and is undoubtedly what SAM’s are known most by, Kasha comes later and sees little use still in comparison to Gekko. This is also the time when CHR had a strong effect on hate decay, Ninjas were laughed at as DDs and couldn’t tank HNMs, WARs were laughed at as DDs on any tough HNMs, the number of BLMs and RNGs determined if you could kill a mob… And we’re supposed to trust the knowledge of this time for evidence? Even though there were absolutely no known tests to even provide concrete evidence of anything?

What evidence is there again? Other than an abundance of ignorance of how things really work?

Here’s the best part of all this!

You know the type of person you would be based on what you just said? One of those people that would be chasing Galileo with a pitch fork saying he’s an idiot for thinking the Earth isn’t in the center of the universe. And your justification? Because thousands of years of history where people thought the Earth was the center of the universe couldn’t be wrong. But what about his proof? Poppycock, we have thousands of years of people believing it to be true as proof.

I bet you would’ve believed in spontaneous generation too… Because, after all, the entire world believed that Mice were born from stacks of hay for centuries, how could they be wrong?

That misconception is based on something, although it might not involve L3 rabbits. Any L75 SAM would have used all 3 WS at some point on their way to 75 before deciding which of the 3 they preferred even if they never made another SC after 75.

I, along with many other SAMs that believe this, represent the people that actually did this. We all agree that they’re all the same damage… We’re the proof, and you’re still calling BS and supporting the SAMs that don’t test it because they’re a majority, even though you admitted a majority don’t really test it.

Again, hen and egg situation. You think people choose Gekko because it looks cool, and therefore, the majority of WS performed are going to be Gekko. I think people used all 3 (forced to at some point or another), found a preference, and stuck with it.

Uh, no, try again… I know for a fact that most SAMs use Gekko most often because it looks cool. Go read the nearly 300 page screen shot thread on the SAM forum, count up how many pictures you see of SAMs using Gekko, Kasha, and Yukikaze. Again, no exaggerating, I’ve never seen one screen shot of a SAM using Yukikaze. An overwhelming majority of the rest will be Gekko, and the others will be Kasha.

Again, I provide more proof to your 0 proof.

I agree about most people being too lazy to find the optimal set-ups for any given situation, but in this case, its irrelevant. They don't need to change anything other than what button they press for WS, so their results are going to be relative only to themselves.

You can’t honestly think it’s that simple to see which WS is better? To really prove this it would take a very large number of WS with each under the same conditions, which would be no different from testing the effect of xxx gear vs xxx gear. It takes a lot of time, patience, math, etc.

Or do you define this as a good test?

“I just hit my button and did a 1173 Tachi: Yukikaze on a Sea Puk. Now I will change my button… I did a 1023 Tachi: Gekko on a Sea Puk. Man, you’re right, that was easy… I guess Yukikaze is really the most damaging WS between them all.”

Its actually very significant, since based on the published fTP multipliers Kasha/Yuki/Gekko shouldn't be doing anywhere close to Kaiten's damage unless you were performing them every time at 200+ TP with Amano.

I had 300% TP for all of my Kasha/Gekko/Yukikaze WS… I made it clear in my original post that I’m talking about 300% TP, the max damage.

Right, but its uncommon for the same person to perform differently under the same conditions. Most people benchmark their performance and take all conditions into account so that they can improve upon or replicate their results in the future. Sure, there's variance (its not like testing on RNG, anyways), but there's also things you can look for as a melee.

Not true, again, most people just play the game. There are very few people that take it to the next level… Again, it’s overwhelmingly apparent in the number of factual posts where people actually do in-dept testing, versus the number of posts where they want others to tell them what to wear/do and figure things out for them.

Except you'd think with thousands of samples, that 8% and 2% might produce a single SS in the pictures forum. I don't recall seeing one.

I already said I’ve had plenty, whether you care to take my word for it or not. I don’t have the time to look for it now as I’d have to go through thousands of screens, but here’s one to wet your appetite.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5691/ffxi823ar4.jpg

Just in my last exp PT, SAM/WAR, no DA, no Berserk, no Hasso, no SV… Very high for a /WAR SAM WS, albeit I’ve had higher.

Sounds good, we could also start a topic about how Merits don't increase damage.......

Or even better, about how the earth is really the center of the universe!

[Juvant]

proof that gekko is better than kasha:

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3...ashafn8.th.jpg



But in all seriousness, I've used sam enough on HNMs like Tiamat to know that there is a difference in the WSes. And I have used all 3 WSes frequently to test the theory. My TA yuki's do 200-300 on Tiamat consistantly, and my TA gekkos do 500-600. SA Yuki does 700-800, SA gekko does 900-1000 pretty easily. The only thing that may be varying is my tp at the time of the WSes, but I really doubt every time I have a yuki do half as much as gekko its due to having less tp. When myself and another sam frag on Tia, we vary who opens and closes, and the closer ALWAYS does more (yes, we skillchain on Tiamat sometimes, because our blms like to have fun too)

I'm not a lolgekkoonly sam, I use yuki very often especially in exp and soloing, but time and time again it does less than gekko. I find the difference to be less noticable on lower level mobs. I know you probably haven't been to many HNM on sam to notice it, but I do agree that level 1 rabbits aren't enough to base it on.

[Lordwafik]

longshot theory number two: Gekko > Kasha > Yukikaze
It is a common conception that quested WS's lick balls, or are subpar when placed next to their respective 220 WS's. This places Gekko above Kasha. Gekko is also placed above Yukikaze because "yukikaze is a LV60 WS".

Rampage!

[Awoir]

longshot theory number two: Gekko > Kasha > Yukikaze
It is a common conception that quested WS's lick balls, or are subpar when placed next to their respective 220 WS's. This places Gekko above Kasha. Gekko is also placed above Yukikaze because "yukikaze is a LV60 WS".

Rampage!

Dancing Edge, Guillotine, Penta, Slugwinder, Raging Fists(lolPUP)...

[Swatt]

longshot theory number two: Gekko > Kasha > Yukikaze
It is a common conception that quested WS's lick balls, or are subpar when placed next to their respective 220 WS's. This places Gekko above Kasha. Gekko is also placed above Yukikaze because "yukikaze is a LV60 WS".

Rampage!

Dancing Edge, Guillotine, Penta, Slugwinder, Raging Fists(lolPUP)...

Vorpal blade, Blade Jin...

[Sonomaa]

wordsss

once again, I shall re-iterate an unwritten rule

rukenshin and lordwafik are hardly ever wrong, its pointless to try to argue that fact, you will be beaten soundly like a red headed stepchild

edit:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5691/ffxi823ar4.jpg

is that a pick up party or do you go around fucking with peoples heads or just to showing them how much they really suck

[Kirschy]

When I tested the mods, I used STR Etudes. They didn't affect the WS at all. In the field, STR Eq works just as well as INT/AGI eq for WS Macro... In the rare case I'd use Catastrophe over Guillotine... I'm just as well off with Hecatomb Cap as I am with a Demon's Helm.

I should say this again... but the additional drain from Catastrophe is NOT extra damage. 10%-100% of the WS damage I gain back as HP. (I don't know who was trying to advocate that it was.) Interesting to note... I won't gain any HP back from undead... but you can almost expect that. The added drain occurs after Souleater takes HP... so in practical application you can pop Souleater, hit once or twice, then Catastrophe and gain majority if not all of the HP back.

Since it was brough up, I just tested it... Using Catastrophe and then equipping another weapon after still gives me the 10% haste. So in theory you can 300 TP Catastophe, and then switch to Kraken and keep the haste.

Back on topic to the Kraken vs Apocalypse debate... SE/BW Kraken, and just SE Kraken are amazing amounts of damage... I was close to optimal conditions today @ Dynamis Lord and managed 25k damage in 60 seconds. But thats with DL being Chainspell Stunned and Cure Spam, which is rarely going to be the case. It's just not practical to use in certian endgame scenarios. I earlier mentioned the few times I find it useful... Dynamis Lord/KV situations where it's just a dps fest for a short period of time. Aspi (Which BW isn't very useful, and youre reliant on cure spam)... And to add to that... Proto-Ultima (When it uses the Citadel Buster countdown).

I can't see it being helpful on wyrms. SE/BW Kraken is going to take hate, so youre pretti much stuck on the feet and /nin... Which is fine... But then you need to deal with TPs being spammed at you. Roar is gonna erase your Souleater, Terror is gonna stop you, wing is just a bitch(esp hurricane :/). Breath is about the only non-debilitating TP. Ouryu in particular is a BC... you can't have extra WHM spamming cure on you making the SE Kraken setup even less viable. Tiamat counters which makes things even worse.

I play DRK a lot in endgame, and I just find myself using Apoc a lot more than Kraken. It's clear that the few scenarios where Kraken is helpful, it's veryvery helpful. If you're a Linkshell looking to pick up a new player, a kraken DRK offers more than a Apoc DRK for sure. But for an endgame DRK with both weapons, Apoc will see more playtime than a Kraken. (Not to draw out this post anymore than it needs to be... I find Apocalpyse has allowed me to change my eq/food build... It allows me to be more effective in every case where I'm not using the Kraken.)

[Swatt]

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5691/ffxi823ar4.jpg

is that a pick up party or do you go around fucking with peoples heads or just to showing them how much they really suck

well, he picked Rykoshin up...