Drk weapon question

[Plow]

Rykoshin

I lol'd

[RKenshin]

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5691/ffxi823ar4.jpg

is that a pick up party or do you go around fucking with peoples heads or just to showing them how much they really suck

It's a pickup PT, I seek pretty often for exp PTs because I'm too lazy to make them.

Usually someone in the LS would just make a PT... But, most of the people from my LS that I normally exp with have been busy lately with farming/leveling other jobs. In that case in particular though, an old friend asked me to join a PT he was going to make.

I'm pretty sure I am probably more willing to seek and deal with pickup PTs for exp than anyone in my LS... lol

[chiz]

So basically you’re implying that Tachi: Gekko could secretly up your attack rating to a value higher than what it would be with Kasha/Yuki…

Nope, I'm implying just what my 2 examples proved, that stabbing L3 bunnies isn't going to tell you anything other than what you want it to. Is it possible that there's something else at work that could alter fTP or pDIF in uncapped situations? Possibly, if it were so easy to identify I'm sure someone would have been able to put their fiinger on it by now.

If that were true, whose to say any of the WS equations are worth a dime if all weapon skills have that potential hidden effect?

They're still valuable because they let you know the upper boundaries of any given WS and also allow you to isolate and accurately identify controllable variables like WSC modifiers. This allows you to set expectations in uncontrolled situations and compare them to other WS across the board uniformly. It also allows you to make adjustments in uncontrolled situations to improve damage or find optimal set-ups depending on what you're up against.

You've acknowledged earlier that low fTP multiplier multi-hit WS don't perform as well as high fTP multiplier 1 hit WS on harder mobs, yet based on L30 bunny testing, they have the potential to do more damage. Are you going to draw the conclusion that multi-hit WS should always do more damage than a 1 hit WS? Of course not, because it doesn't hold up in practical applications.

I don’t understand, how are those WS descriptions omitting any important information? If damage is enhanced by TP, then the more TP you have the more damage you do. If accuracy is enhanced by TP, then the more TP you have the more damage you do. If it ignores defense based on TP, the more TP you have the more defense you ignore. For most situations all of the above will apply.

Sidewinder is a high damage but inaccurate shot, hit-rate is influenced by TP, and there’s nothing more to it. I don’t know of any multi-hit WS that apparently don’t follow their description… And Souleater is an ability and in a completely different area. We’re talking about WS damage, not abilities/traits/spells/anything else.

Sidewinder is described as a 4x WS, when in fact, its 5x. The only possible way you could reconcile the erroneous WS description is if you assumed it was 4x critical damage which would bring fTP to 5.0, however, Sidewinder at 5.0 can critical for another 1.25x of total damage.

Its commonly accepted that different multi-hit WS have different properties that aren't necessarily described in their WS descriptions. Rampage for instance says chance of critical varies with TP, however the actual critical chance varies little based on TP and even at 100TP has a higher inherent chance to critical compared to other WS. Another example would be Dancing Edge vs. Blade: Ku. Dancing Edge has no mention of chance to critical, only accuracy, however it clearly has a higher chance to critical compared to Blade: Ku, another 5-hit WS. Another example is Evisceration, which before it was patched, had the description Damage varies with TP. 5-hit WS that clearly lacked power compared to Dancing Edge, even though it had similar WS formula characteristics. Post-patch its clearly better because they changed it so that chance to critical varies with TP, but still some argue its critical chance is lower than Dancing Edge.

As for discounting abilities because they're abilities and not WS.....that argument just fails. If you're going to base everything you know about FFXI based on in-game descriptions, why not be consistent about it?

Not a good argument, the whole epeen and “I’m going to post the damage I do!” wasn’t as big as it is now back then. The gear of the average player back then was also much worse. It’s only become such a big deal over the most recent years, and it’s obvious as the number of epeen ‘postyourdamagexz1!@’ threads only started and recently years and has grown more and more over time.

Its actually more valid than your "no one ever SC'd before because no one does it now" argument. Gear and mentality today vs. 2 years ago is irrelevant, their damage would reflect their gear but would still be consistent in any observations made between the 3 WS in question.

Regardless, the fact still remains that in an overwhelming majority of the situations over the last few years, a SAM will be spamming weapon skills more than they SC. And even when they do, Gekko is used most frequently followed by Kasha, and in dead last is Yuki.

Actually, most commonly embraced strategies are less than 2 years old with trendy "Burn-style" strats only gaining popularity in the last year or so. Before that, it was all about SC and MB so again, your argument that a SAM rarely SC'd because they aren't required to do so today fails.

To give you a more clear time frame, I recall being laughed at on KI in early 2005 for posting strats about DLord like Chainspell Stun, Kclub DRKs, and TP burning it back before any NA had killed it.......so clearly today's strats are relatively recent inventions. And just so people don't assume I'm Al Gore'ing and claiming I invented the Internet..... Thread on KI dated 2/17/2005. I don't take credit for any of the strats, I simply list what I thought would work based on anecdotal evidence.

What evidence? I don’t see any evidence… You want me to go back a few years? OK!

A few years ago… No one knows what the hell weapon equations are. The most common belief is that Yukikaze sucks because it looks shitty and makes shitty SCs and most SAM don’t even use it since Enpi is better until Gekko SC wise, Gekko is the first real WS to SAMs and is undoubtedly what SAM’s are known most by, Kasha comes later and sees little use still in comparison to Gekko.

They wouldn't need to know the weapon skill equations, they'd just need to look at the number after they pressed their WS macro. As for Enpi being more common than Yuki? LoL? You must be forgetting the whole RNG craze since Slugwinder/Yuki was the preferred SC for many HNMs and early Burn PTs. Yuki/Raging Rush was also extremely popular back when WARs actually used GAX in EXP (I know, since leveling DRK when competing with LFP SAMs and WARs was extremely difficult until L66+).

This is also the time when CHR had a strong effect on hate decay, Ninjas were laughed at as DDs and couldn’t tank HNMs, WARs were laughed at as DDs on any tough HNMs, the number of BLMs and RNGs determined if you could kill a mob… And we’re supposed to trust the knowledge of this time for evidence? Even though there were absolutely no known tests to even provide concrete evidence of anything?

Yep, because even though strategies and perceptions evolved with time, they wouldn't change the relative damage between 3 WS that are purportedly the same.

What evidence is there again? Other than an abundance of ignorance of how things really work?

None if you're memory only spans back a year or so.

Here’s the best part of all this!
Fast Forward through a bunch of random musings

K.

I, along with many other SAMs that believe this, represent the people that actually did this. We all agree that they’re all the same damage… We’re the proof, and you’re still calling BS and supporting the SAMs that don’t test it because they’re a majority, even though you admitted a majority don’t really test it.

I could basically type the same thing except their proof is by simply comparing damage between the WS in normal applications. There's plenty of SAM out there that agree the WS are different who aren't going to spend time stabbing L3 bunnies because they're either ignorant of the WS equations or they accept them as being correct. But again, that doesn't discount their observations and preference when comparing the 3 WS.

Uh, no, try again… I know for a fact that most SAMs use Gekko most often because it looks cool. Go read the nearly 300 page screen shot thread on the SAM forum, count up how many pictures you see of SAMs using Gekko, Kasha, and Yukikaze. Again, no exaggerating, I’ve never seen one screen shot of a SAM using Yukikaze. An overwhelming majority of the rest will be Gekko, and the others will be Kasha.

Again, I provide more proof to your 0 proof.

Funny that your main argument is because of aesthetics, when in reality, I don't even see the WS animation because of equipment swapping. I guess I'm the only SAM that swaps WS gear right! But back to your argument about the 300 page KI SAM forum, which I've never browsed through but covered earlier. Its either proof that 1) SAMs never, ever, ever use Yukikaze or 2) Gekko is consistently dealing more damage than Yukikaze even though its used less. Which seems more likely?

You can’t honestly think it’s that simple to see which WS is better? To really prove this it would take a very large number of WS with each under the same conditions, which would be no different from testing the effect of xxx gear vs xxx gear. It takes a lot of time, patience, math, etc.

When testing over time, that would provide a sufficient sample for someone to form a conclusion. Its very different than switching gear because again, the WS should perform identically. So, unless that person only used 1 WS for a year, then hit the fast-forward button 4 years and only used a different WS because it looked cool, the results would be consistent over time independent of gear upgrades.

Or do you define this as a good test?

“I just hit my button and did a 1173 Tachi: Yukikaze on a Sea Puk. Now I will change my button… I did a 1023 Tachi: Gekko on a Sea Puk. Man, you’re right, that was easy… I guess Yukikaze is really the most damaging WS between them all.”

With a larger sample, it'd be a better test than stabbing L3 bunnies ya.

I had 300% TP for all of my Kasha/Gekko/Yukikaze WS… I made it clear in my original post that I’m talking about 300% TP, the max damage.

Missed that, but still discredits using capped testing as definitive proof of anything. 100TP Kaiten vs. 300TP Kasha/Gekko/Yuki should always be more damage, because the bunnies said so right?

Not true, again, most people just play the game. There are very few people that take it to the next level… Again, it’s overwhelmingly apparent in the number of factual posts where people actually do in-dept testing, versus the number of posts where they want others to tell them what to wear/do and figure things out for them.

True in cases where the only thing they need to be told is what SC to make. Again, you're trying to make a distinction between the 3 WS but at the same time, arguing all 3 are the same. Identical gear, similar situations, different letters in their WS macro. All they need to do is look at the number that results and that's their testing. Another example: Any time a SAM makes self-Light with Meikyo Shisui. Think they need to hit the pause button and be told what to wear or how to interpret their results?

I already said I’ve had plenty, whether you care to take my word for it or not. I don’t have the time to look for it now as I’d have to go through thousands of screens, but here’s one to wet your appetite.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5691/ffxi823ar4.jpg

Just in my last exp PT, SAM/WAR, no DA, no Berserk, no Hasso, no SV… Very high for a /WAR SAM WS, albeit I’ve had higher.

And I've acknowledged that I've seen and done enough Yuki to confirm the potential cap is the same, however, I've had many more situations where its failed to reach expectations.

Or even better, about how the earth is really the center of the universe!

How can it be the center when its flat.........

[aurik]

gum flapping and still no data

Good for you, you might as well have typed an essay on how you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and His Noodly Appendage is why gekko is better. Go out there and prove it instead of wasting our time with elaborate rebuttals where you do nothing but dodge the fact that you nor anyone else has any hard data that show anything but that the WSes are calculated exactly the same way.

To be honest, your "gut feelings" don't have the greatest track record, if I recall correctly.

I'm going to repost my last because it still fits. Way to generate another 1000 words with absolutely no content, Chiz.

[chiz]

gum flapping and still no data

Good for you, you might as well have typed an essay on how you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and His Noodly Appendage is why gekko is better. Go out there and prove it instead of wasting our time with elaborate rebuttals where you do nothing but dodge the fact that you nor anyone else has any hard data that show anything but that the WSes are calculated exactly the same way.

To be honest, your "gut feelings" don't have the greatest track record, if I recall correctly.

I'm going to repost my last because it still fits. Way to generate another 1000 words with absolutely no content, Chiz.

Its ok Aurik, if you keep stamping your foot and crying you might get the results you're looking for. Or better yet you could get those 68 Levels on SAM and form your own conclusion.

[NynJa]

Your conclusion is "well everyone uses Gekko so it must be better".

If everyone jumped off the Empire State building, would you ? By your afforementionned logic, you would.

[aurik]

gum flapping and still no data

Good for you, you might as well have typed an essay on how you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and His Noodly Appendage is why gekko is better. Go out there and prove it instead of wasting our time with elaborate rebuttals where you do nothing but dodge the fact that you nor anyone else has any hard data that show anything but that the WSes are calculated exactly the same way.

To be honest, your "gut feelings" don't have the greatest track record, if I recall correctly.

I'm going to repost my last because it still fits. Way to generate another 1000 words with absolutely no content, Chiz.

Its ok Aurik, if you keep stamping your foot and crying you might get the results you're looking for. Or better yet you could get those 68 Levels on SAM and form your own conclusion.

Sorry, I trust Ruke's hard data more than the Gut Feeling of a 75 thf with mandau who didn't even know that assassin + TA = 100% accuracy, and argued for several pages that this wasn't the case.

Its not often, but I have missed a few TA while blinded at Faf camp.

Gekko outdamages Yuki

As I said before, your gut feeling has a pretty poor track record, and you've have a history of prioritizing a good argument over facts. It's high time you put up or shut up in this argument.

[Sidanoir]

oops double post

[Sidanoir]

SAM/WAR With finished GKT Kaiten spamming is pretty sexy in exp now...my LS mate was doing constantly over 1000 in thickets on Mamool, Wyvern, etc. lolPuks is upwards of 1500 sometimes...im really impressed with SAM now, and Third Eye makes him actually live! So it dont matter than he pulls hate...


As far as relic vs kraken..

I only use my DRK to kraken stuffs or pull in dynamis pretty much now...that being said however DRK/WAR with scythe to me is one of the most fun things in the game so I would say finishing scythe would be something I would consider doing if I still had the time to play like I used to in grad school..

SE kraken vs something isn't the best thing to always do..for instance

If you are doing Tiamat with 16 ppl and 2 whms its probably not a very good idea to kraken tia..as he will spam tp, whms will cure ppl pull hate when you die stuff gets ugly..
But if you have 4-5 WHMs....and 2 DRKs lets say...you can just rotate drks in and out without any real strain on MP and do a lot of damage...

Tiamat tends to terror/roar DRKs a lot more now than she used it......Souleater seems to almost trigger those moves..or its just bad luck

Just killed Tia last night...with 2 KC drks and 5 WHMs...worked fine, cause the support needed to heal us was there...

Nothing like taking 8% of a mobs HP in 30 secs...or more depends on procs unfortuantely ;/


If blood weapon actually did damage too...just wow every 2 hours dark would be able to near solo some stuff.. lol

[NynJa]

Sorry, I trust Ruke's hard data more than the Gut Feeling of a 75 thf with mandau who didn't even know that assassin + TA = 100% accuracy, and argued for several pages that this wasn't the case.

LULZ
now thats funny...

[Beckwin]

lolchiz

You run on about damage equations every fucking chance you get, but you're gonna deny them when they don't agree with your gut feeling?

Sounds even more hypocritical than damning botting when more likely than not there has been botting in your shell at one point or another :/

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

lolchiz

You run on about damage equations every fucking chance you get, but you're gonna deny them when they don't agree with your gut feeling?

ohshitbush

[NynJa]

kay I Just read that thread, and I fucking rofl'd, which isnt safe cause I was running up uleguerand naked.

anyways, I have two things to say:
1-how come none of you pointed it out to me ?!?!?
2-where'd chiz go after this was brought up ?

[draxyl]

2-where'd chiz go after this was brought up ?

Don't call it a comeback, I been here for years.

http://photos13.flickr.com/19687974_723c705436_m.jpg

[chiz]

Sorry, I trust Ruke's hard data more than the Gut Feeling of a 75 thf with mandau who didn't even know that assassin + TA = 100% accuracy, and argued for several pages that this wasn't the case.

The hard data that I've proven time and time again isn't definitive? Sounds a lot like faith. I'll trust the countless SAMs who over the years tested and found Gekko to be the stronger WS along with the WS Bible everyone references even to this day.

Also, I gave a clear example of SA+WS not being 100% consistent/accurate, so clearly any cookie cutter blanket statements are false. But to give you another example, TA+WS on a MNK mob isn't 100% accuracy. Go test and figure it out.

Its not often, but I have missed a few TA while blinded at Faf camp.

Its possible I was wrong, it wouldn't be the first time and it sure as hell won't be the last. I could've easily missed the TA in the damage spam or the tank could've moved ever so slightly. Just the other day I could've swore I was lined up and Mercy Stroke'd Faf for 400ish and promptly pulled hate. Guess I wasn't lined up. If I TA'd before that WS I very well could've missed and figured TA wasn't 100% accuracy.

Gekko outdamages Yuki

As I said before, your gut feeling has a pretty poor track record, and you've have a history of prioritizing a good argument over facts. It's high time you put up or shut up in this argument.

Versus the countless facts and arguments I've posed in this thread alone to which you have no reply or choose not to reply to. Sorry to break the news to you, but stabbing bunnies isn't going to give you the full picture, sorry.

lolchiz

You run on about damage equations every fucking chance you get, but you're gonna deny them when they don't agree with your gut feeling?

Sounds even more hypocritical than damning botting when more likely than not there has been botting in your shell at one point or another :/

I've never used the WS equations as anything more than a reference to reconcile empirical data (WS damage) and to set expectations. When they don't, I try to figure out why. In the case of Yuki/Gekko/Kasha, I had already come to the conclusion many other SAMs had before me and found Yuki/Kasha to be inferior to Gekko. Did some research, stumbled upon VZX's site and noticed it mentioned the same thing. Why would I need to do any further testing?

Dropped another Ridill about a week ago, I won pull, I must be botting right? (oh wait, was a 1st int pop with 40 in the pit, half of which were ours) Not everyone's a cheating sack of shit, like yourself Beckwin.

[NynJa]

you posted facts and arguments ??

perhaps I cant see them because I do everything in FF as thf/whm.

[aurik]

Sorry, I trust Ruke's hard data more than the Gut Feeling of a 75 thf with mandau who didn't even know that assassin + TA = 100% accuracy, and argued for several pages that this wasn't the case.

The hard data that I've proven time and time again isn't definitive? Sounds a lot like faith. I'll trust the countless SAMs who over the years tested and found Gekko to be the stronger WS along with the WS Bible everyone references even to this day.

Also, I gave a clear example of SA+WS not being 100% consistent/accurate, so clearly any cookie cutter blanket statements are false. But to give you another example, TA+WS on a MNK mob isn't 100% accuracy. Go test and figure it out.

Its not often, but I have missed a few TA while blinded at Faf camp.

Its possible I was wrong, it wouldn't be the first time and it sure as hell won't be the last. I could've easily missed the TA in the damage spam or the tank could've moved ever so slightly. Just the other day I could've swore I was lined up and Mercy Stroke'd Faf for 400ish and promptly pulled hate. Guess I wasn't lined up. If I TA'd before that WS I very well could've missed and figured TA wasn't 100% accuracy.

Gekko outdamages Yuki

As I said before, your gut feeling has a pretty poor track record, and you've have a history of prioritizing a good argument over facts. It's high time you put up or shut up in this argument.

Versus the countless facts and arguments I've posed in this thread alone to which you have no reply or choose not to reply to. Sorry to break the news to you, but stabbing bunnies isn't going to give you the full picture, sorry.

And I'll repeat myself again since you just seem to type without really saying anything new: it's about time you put up or shut up.

We're all ears if you have something better than "this one time I missed on a TA. True story".

The fact that you managed to not only hit 75 but also collect a relic weapon for a job for which you remain so ignorant that you argue for several pages against an extremely rudimentary (and easy to test, which as an aside I might ask whether you actually ever did take 3 minutes to confirm that your understanding was indeed completely incorrect) facet of the job, puts you in a very poor position to make assertions that fly in the face of hard data without anything other than "hey, everyone else uses gekko" to stand on.

[chiz]

you posted facts and arguments ??

perhaps I cant see them because I do everything in FF as thf/whm.

We've already gone through this Nynja, you can't see them because you're retarded beyond help.

Edit: and your sig proves it. Because Mighty Strikes is 100% accuracy amirite? Idiot.

[chiz]

And I'll repeat myself again since you just seem to type without really saying anything new: it's about time you put up or shut up.

We're all ears if you have something better than "this one time I missed on a TA. True story".

The fact that you managed to not only hit 75 but also collect a relic weapon for a job for which you remain so ignorant that you argue for several pages against an extremely rudimentary (and easy to test, which as an aside I might ask whether you actually ever did take 3 minutes to confirm that your understanding was indeed completely incorrect) facet of the job, puts you in a very poor position to make assertions that fly in the face of hard data without anything other than "hey, everyone else uses gekko" to stand on.

And I'll repeat myself since you're not adding anything new: you should do the same or take a seat.

Your "hard data" is flawed, you don't respond to the fact because you're wrong.

I just gave you another example of how TA+WS isn't 100% accuracy, go test!

My assertions are based on my own experiences, how I interpret them may or may not be correct but I've got the job leveled at least.

[aurik]

And I'll repeat myself again since you just seem to type without really saying anything new: it's about time you put up or shut up.

We're all ears if you have something better than "this one time I missed on a TA. True story".

The fact that you managed to not only hit 75 but also collect a relic weapon for a job for which you remain so ignorant that you argue for several pages against an extremely rudimentary (and easy to test, which as an aside I might ask whether you actually ever did take 3 minutes to confirm that your understanding was indeed completely incorrect) facet of the job, puts you in a very poor position to make assertions that fly in the face of hard data without anything other than "hey, everyone else uses gekko" to stand on.

And I'll repeat myself since you're not adding anything new: you should do the same or take a seat.

Your "hard data" is flawed, you don't respond to the fact because you're wrong.

I just gave you another example of how TA+WS isn't 100% accuracy, go test!

My assertions are based on my own experiences, how I interpret them may or may not be correct but I've got the job leveled at least.

Nobody was talking about TA+WS in the aforementioned thread. You were specifically talking about TA+normal attack, you said it was 100% crit but not 100% accuracy. The fact that you can be so sure about such an easily-tested proposition and yet get it wrong is what makes you basically look like a complete fool.

Wondering why you have absolutely no credibility? Because you're this guy.

And you're doing it again here. You suggested that maybe Gekko has non-100-multiples breakpoints for fTP bonus changes. That's easily tested. If you want to make a splash, go show us it is true. Now you're suggesting that Gekko has an attack bonus on the pDIF calculation. That's also not too difficult to test. Go show us it is true.