Drk weapon question

[chiz]

Took the time to cut and paste all the SS of damage I had, because no one believes you unless they see it on the internet!

http://home.comcast.net/~chizow1/lolrabbitsnonames.JPG

I could take the time to break down all the WS but Juvant already did that and we already know what the results are.

Now I could be a prick and spout off about putting up or shutting up with a L7 SAM and losing all credibility etc. etc. blah blah blah, but instead I'll just be content with being right.

[aurik]

The sad thing is, I'm not even wrong, because all I was saying was there wasn't any evidence to support your position.

[chiz]

The sad thing is, I'm not even wrong, because all I was saying was there wasn't any evidence to support your position.

lol w/e

[geno]

Well Juvant's post points to Gekko being stronger then Yuki at least<.<;

gogo sample size of 7

[Juvant]

I didn't say it was the definitive test, but I will say the results are the same as every other Tiamat i've done

[RKenshin]

Finally a step actually in the right direction; some actual proof. Although, the real proof was provided by Juvant and not so much Chiz. Those weapon skills in the picture are done by different people as indicated by the size of the box where you blocked the names. It's not really accurate to compare the lows and highs of different people using different gear.

In the end our information is still conflicting... When I get time I'll try to do some more tests as well, as I'd rather spend an hour beating up mobs than trying to go through like 5000 screens... I got through like 500 and stopped.

Why would you SA? All it does is add 1.0 to your pDIF after it is calculated.

I didn't actually mean that for damage consistancy, my mistake for being unclear. More so for the sake of accuracy (not like you won't get 300% TP before SA is ready every time anyway) to make the test a little more bearable and to dispel the chance of double attack or criticals.

[chiz]

Finally a step actually in the right direction; some actual proof. Although, the real proof was provided by Juvant and not so much Chiz.

So we're backing away from our rabbit story now I see. >.> Actually, I told you exactly how you could test and where I gathered my data over time, you just had to see it in html format to believe it I guess. But you're right, I do have to thank Juvant and Eden for claiming and killing Tiamat and giving me the opportunity to document the results. If a certain other shell had claimed it would've been nothing but 4 hours of 100-200 dmg free nukes. D:

Those weapon skills in the picture are done by different people as indicated by the size of the box where you blocked the names. It's not really accurate to compare the lows and highs of different people using different gear.

Here's a hint: Compare little box to little box, and big box to big box, you'll find the results are the same. But keep digging.

In the end our information is still conflicting... When I get time I'll try to do some more tests as well, as I'd rather spend an hour beating up mobs than trying to go through like 5000 screens... I got through like 500 and stopped.

Yours is, my information is consistent with my "questionable gut feeling" and "faith". I try and bottle some more of it tomorrow at Fafnir, depending on who claims of course.

[Mertron]

Wow, Samurai damage ftl.

Cannonball ftw!

On topic, I'd rather have my own kclub.

[RKenshin]

So we're backing away from our rabbit story now I see. >.> Actually, I told you exactly how you could test and where I gathered my data over time, you just had to see it in html format to believe it I guess. But you're right, I do have to thank Juvant and Eden for claiming and killing Tiamat and giving me the opportunity to document the results. If a certain other shell had claimed it would've been nothing but 4 hours of 100-200 dmg free nukes. D:

I'm not backing away from anything and for shits sake stop acting like I used the rabbits as some kind of gospel, do yourself a favor and go back and read all the posts before you get anymore full of yourself. You mention the bunny tests more than I do, and it's getting aggravating and childlike for you to keep falling back on them when they have nothing to do with a majority of my points in these arguments. I've lost track how many times you've replied to something I said with a completely off-topic bunny reference now... Seriously, it's childish.

All of my main points revolved around details far beyond that simple test I did on rabbits. I only used that test as a reference/example of my attempt to provide concrete proof vs your attempts at nothing.

Here's a hint: Compare little box to little box, and big box to big box, you'll find the results are the same. But keep digging.

You're the one trying to prove something with that information, if you make it look questionable/misleading I'm not the one that misses out so keep it as make-shift as you want. It's fine with me.

Yours is, my information is consistent with my "questionable gut feeling" and "faith". I try and bottle some more of it tomorrow at Fafnir, depending on who claims of course.

My claims are consistant with my results, and no offense meant but based on you sighting that Tiamat as proof, I'd argue my tests are more controlled as well.

Anyway, I used my LJ entries as a timeline type reference for where to look in my screen shot folders (date last modified ftw), already found one of the tests. Just need to put all the information together.

[XxSlusherxx]

I'm not done but I'm getting pretty much the same results. When I finish my test I'll be able to tell you if it's an attk vs. def thing or not.

decided to go /war, using defender vs. berserk etc. generating sample size w/defender at the moment and Yuki is failing pretty hard.

[RKenshin]

Done.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9182/gksp6ef9.jpg

Not the best test but it's still something.

These are all the WS damage screens I frapped and saved in my screen shot folders from level 59 to 67, during those levels my gear stayed almost exactly the same minus a few small changes (Amemet+1 the only change maybe).

They're in order by the level I performed them at starting at the top left (level 59), going down to the bottom left (level 62), and up to the top right (63), going down to bottom right (66). I used Sole Sushi in all situations and was SAM/THF, and usually had the same BRDless setup over and over for most of them minus one round of Tormentors and one round of Flamingos.

The two 9xx damage weapon skills at the bottom are with Soboro (40 base damage GK).

For a difference that should be so apparent, I don't see a big variation in numbers at all. Minus the obvious small increases in average damage as my level gets higher due to small increases in STR/attack, they're doing basically the same damage.

My results have been the same at the end of the game as well (and in slightly more controlled environments). There was at least two other tests where I made some comparisons between Yuki in particular and Kasha/Gekko, and another few between Gekko/Kasha. In my results Kasha and Gekko were undoubtadely the same, and Yukikaze wierds me out sometimes but still averaged up with those two.

Course, as always I'm not going to claim my tests are the end all be all of anything, they're just my experiences. Now you just know why I support them being the same... My tests actually show them to be the same, whether they're really correct or not, in reasonably controlled situations.

[Kirschy]

I guess way off-topic here. But Ruke you seem to have a lot of past data including parses. Are you able to estimate with any certainty an increase in damage% on Wyrm/HNM/Merit PTs with the Relic GKT?

[XxSlusherxx]

Your welcome to be skeptical about my sample size but this took quite a while so whatever I'm not going to waste another 3 hours doin this. All WS were done with Haugun, but due to the nature of maratal weapons not being concrete all ws were performed at 300tp anyway.

SC/EM steelshells in the tree.
No WS were performed when STR down was on, no WS were performed on stoneskin or def boost

No WS gear macro was used to keep things as static as possible.

head:Turban
neck:Justice
ear:Busho/(dunno naked mabye)
body:Shura
hands:Hachiman+1
Rings:Raja/(have to ask probly sniper)
back:Amient+1
belthave to ask if you care)
legs:store tp JSE
feet:Hachiman+1

I don't know if this means that Gekko has a hidden effect of ignore defence or what, but after doing 6 each berserked and 7 each defendered we came up with these results.

Defender:
Yuki- low:328 mean:332 high:412 avg:352
Gekko-low:425 mean:574 high:639 avg:547
Kasha- low:332 mean:457 high:531 avg:434

Berserk:
Yuki- low:561 mean:706 high:779 avg:683
Gekko- low:496 mean:622 high:708 avg:602
Kasha- low:525 mean:647 high:671 avg:619

all double attacks or obvious crits were removed from the data, for even numbers the high middle was used as the mean.

if you have any questions I will answer them, but I'm done lol this took 3 hours any more data you can do yourself, I'm convinced due to how consistant all the data was.

EDIT: No bard, No food, all ws performed from behind so no overwelm.

[Stilgar]

Is there any chance that one or all of these 3 WS could have some elemental property that might affect damage vs. a mob's elemental resistances? Yukikaze is Japanese for 'snow wind,' could it have some kind of ice property? Gekko is 'moonlight,' and Kasha is just 'flower wheel,' I don't see any elemental associations, but they do give added effects, right? Para, silence, and something else.... Sorry, my SAM is even lower level than Aurik's.

[Awoir]

I hate SAMs who use Yukikaze because it makes me lag for like 3 seconds after they use it.

[chiz]

I'm not backing away from anything and for shits sake stop acting like I used the rabbits as some kind of gospel, do yourself a favor and go back and read all the posts before you get anymore full of yourself.

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/113/img0661kr3.png
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6139/ffxi820bg5.jpg
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/1091/ffxi819kd9.jpg

Case closed once and for all I'd say.

Really? Case closed once and for all the the rabbits would say. Arrogant? Are you fucking kidding me? You've spent 4 pages sitting here telling me how I'm wrong and that no one even bothers using the other 2 WS based on YOUR EXPERIENCES even after I gave concrete examples to the contrary. You went on to talk about how the average SAM is too stupid to look at a few numbers after they hit a macro. I gave you 2 clear examples where bunny testing was flawed, yet you continued to ignore the significance and continued to stand by your "rigorous testing." Basically, you can't be wrong, so obviously everyone else is. Arrogance? You reek of it.

All of my main points revolved around details far beyond that simple test I did on rabbits. I only used that test as a reference/example of my attempt to provide concrete proof vs your attempts at nothing.

My attempts at nothing? lol. Maybe you need to re-read all the posts, I gave example after example of where you could clearly see the differences, to which you basically responded: "That's impossible because I haven't seen it or we don't do it that way."

You're the one trying to prove something with that information, if you make it look questionable/misleading I'm not the one that misses out so keep it as make-shift as you want. It's fine with me.

Actually, you're the one trying to find flaws in convincing evidence, just as I figured you would. You wouldn't even need to consider the differences in player though, you'd just need to look at it like your average dumbass SAM and look at the letters after "Tachi:" and then look at the number. If you can't come to the same conclusion regardless of the boxed-out names you might want to reconsider who the dumbass SAMs are.

My claims are consistant with my results, and no offense meant but based on you sighting that Tiamat as proof, I'd argue my tests are more controlled as well.

And I've already shot a few hundred holes in your "controlled testing" results and never disputed the results to begin with. However, I clearly stated from the beginning that those results simply don't hold up in practical applications. Its ok though, I'll be sure to cite further examples as they come along (eg. any HNM that involves 2 SAM and a SC).

Anyway, I used my LJ entries as a timeline type reference for where to look in my screen shot folders (date last modified ftw), already found one of the tests. Just need to put all the information together.

I'll save the trouble of quoting your testing post, but its more of the same bunny testing. There's no parallel testing between Yuki and Gekko after you obtain Gekko at 63. SS don't show anything other than what we already know, that the damage cap potential for both WS are the same. Mobs 59-62 are "soft", 63-67 are a bit tougher. There's little damage fluctuation, which indicates you only took SS of WS you thought were worth SS'ing (e-peen shots).

[chiz]

I don't know if this means that Gekko has a hidden effect of ignore defence or what, but after doing 6 each berserked and 7 each defendered we came up with these results.

Defender:
Yuki- low:328 mean:332 high:412 avg:352
Gekko-low:425 mean:574 high:639 avg:547
Kasha- low:332 mean:457 high:531 avg:434

Berserk:
Yuki- low:561 mean:706 high:779 avg:683
Gekko- low:496 mean:622 high:708 avg:602
Kasha- low:525 mean:647 high:671 avg:619

all double attacks or obvious crits were removed from the data, for even numbers the high middle was used as the mean.

if you have any questions I will answer them, but I'm done lol this took 3 hours any more data you can do yourself, I'm convinced due to how consistant all the data was.

Nice testing Slusher, admittedly, you're a better man than me for taking the time to do all that. I knew it'd take 2-boxing a small army to simulate years of anecdotal evidence so kudos to you.

The only thing I might've done differently is test on a mob that didn't have the status debuffs (str down) and buffs (metallic skin, scissor guard), but the /WAR part and alternating Defender/Berserk was a stroke of genius. Ability to test at 3 attack levels without changing anything else is really a nice test.

[safer]

oshi we got tiamat? wut dropped ;o
and why am i finding about this on bg and not our own forums (when they're not broken =< )

also i dunno if this helps your testing or what not.. but one time i did hexa strike on kirin for like 91 damage... but like only 1 hit landed.. so mulptily by 6 or w/e~ ^^;;

[RKenshin]

Nice test Slusher, interesting results too.

I guess way off-topic here. But Ruke you seem to have a lot of past data including parses. Are you able to estimate with any certainty an increase in damage% on Wyrm/HNM/Merit PTs with the Relic GKT?

First line is true, but second line isn't. I've saved almost every parse from almost every exp PT as well as equipment/PT setup/etc from just about every PT I've been in, but my information on NMs/HNMs is much more limited. I'm normally on NIN for most HNMs, and while I have gone SAM quite a few times it isn't enough for any concrete data.

Really? Case closed once and for all the the rabbits would say. Arrogant? Are you fucking kidding me? You've spent 4 pages sitting here telling me how I'm wrong and that no one even bothers using the other 2 WS based on YOUR EXPERIENCES even after I gave concrete examples to the contrary. You went on to talk about how the average SAM is too stupid to look at a few numbers after they hit a macro. I gave you 2 clear examples where bunny testing was flawed, yet you continued to ignore the significance and continued to stand by your "rigorous testing." Basically, you can't be wrong, so obviously everyone else is. Arrogance? You reek of it.

I'm not backing away from anything and for shits sake stop acting like I used the rabbits as some kind of gospel, do yourself a favor and go back and read all the posts before you get anymore full of yourself. You mention the bunny tests more than I do, and it's getting aggravating and childlike for you to keep falling back on them when they have nothing to do with a majority of my points in these arguments. I've lost track how many times you've replied to something I said with a completely off-topic bunny reference now... Seriously, it's childish.

All of my main points revolved around details far beyond that simple test I did on rabbits. I only used that test as a reference/example of my attempt to provide concrete proof vs your attempts at nothing.

You're one to talk about being arrogant, or how about I go in your shoes for a second and discredit anything you say by pointing to you saying TA isn't 100% accuracy over and over and over again? Whether or not it has anything to do with the topic? That's basically all you keep doing with the bunny test.

Seriously, do what I just said in that paragraph. Other then the times you mention it, I don't even talk about the bunny test in my last 2 posts concerning this on previous pages. Or are you really that blind? My references to my testing refers to the ones like what I just posted, the actual tests on high level mobs, as I made clear (but apparently you only read what you want to hear?).

No seriously, why the fuck do you think there's four pages of people going "Chiz, stfu or post some proof"? What proof did you give? Point me to it, seriously, I saw absolutely 0 proof to back it up, all I saw was you talking and saying "it's this way because I said it is, and I don't need numbers to support it because everyone in vana'diel knows it's true just because they do and they have calculators in their mind that tell them which WS is averaging higher." The entire board said you lacked proof, and you're still convinced you had proof?

In the end you still failed to provide any evidence yourself from your own apparent 'elaborate testing'. In addition, the SAM community that you said had done their own elaborate testing had absolutely 0 proof, and there's still no evidence of that as the only proof thats been posted by people other than me had to be done today/yesterday. That just proves my point, that no one did their own elaborate testing.

Then on top of that the only people that provided actual evidence in this thread are Slusher, Juvant, and myself. You're just running around in circles around Juvant's information because he did the work for you.

Actually, you're the one trying to find flaws in convincing evidence, just as I figured you would.

I don't need to find flaws, the large inconsistancy of the results on Tiamat and all the unknown factors revolving around TP and gear and the different players speak to the flaws enough.

I'll save the trouble of quoting your testing post, but its more of the same bunny testing. There's no parallel testing between Yuki and Gekko after you obtain Gekko at 63. SS don't show anything other than what we already know, that the damage cap potential for both WS are the same. Mobs 59-62 are "soft", 63-67 are a bit tougher. There's little damage fluctuation, which indicates you only took SS of WS you thought were worth SS'ing (e-peen shots).

Of course, back to the bunny test reference like a child when it has nothing to do with my argument. Does SA not have 100% accuracy, too?

First, it was wrong to test on level 0 mobs and you say it's wrong to test on IT mobs, despite there being absolutely no chance my attack was capped on IT mobs due to my low attack rating with no meat/songs. So, just like another poster said, now that the information doesn't support what you think you descredit it.

That poster couldn't be anymore correct.

But hey, news flash, those mobs were all IT to me at the time. I don't know what you seem to think you know about SAM, but hey another news flash, 300% TP+ SA + WS doesn't fluctuate much to begin with for SAM. It's all the same range of numbers give or take a hundred points or so with the exception of buffs changing or double attack activating. Or do you really think that 300% TP + SA + WS has a range of several hundred damage?

Mob difficulty doesn't change much by level, and if you didn't notice, you get a lot stronger at a rate much faster than mobs get tougher. Or, are really a believer that level 70-75 exp PTs aren't capable of getting exp on tougher mobs any faster than low level PTs? And that damage doesn't get any higher going from 50 to 75?

And no, those are all my 300% TP weapon skills from 59 to 66, I purposely saved TP and screen shotted them and saved them for information on this test.

[NynJa]

if testing on lv0 bunnies is invalid, then all that information about the WS formula and blu spells and all that is invalid, since it was all tested there. KEKEKEKEKEKE

anyways, doesnt matter because now you're that idiot with a Mandau who doesnt even know how Assassin works, hahaha.