Drk weapon question

[Lordwafik]

Oh ya, number one rule: Don't argue with LordWafik and Aurik because they are always right.

I know when I'm wrong, I've been wrong before, go look in the Dyna-lolcop thread where someone corrects me on mob drop patterns. No shame in being wrong , I don't get why people push on falsehood if proven wrong, it's not like it makes it right.

Yep, I've only had THF leveled for a year, maybe another 2 years of anecdotal evidence will prove me right or wrong.

Chiz now you're being silly. We've told you the only reasons why TA can fail, and they're all people reasons (person infront of you moves or changes gear, terrain difference counting you on another level as the person infront). It's 100%.

[RKenshin]

Decided to see what results I'd get and doing the same test Slusher did in the tree, seemed like the best mobs/situation for it.

Spent a little over 3 hours messing around and have the numbers for 20 Gekkos, 20 Yukikaze, and 20 Kashas with Defender up. I did hope to try the same number of WS with Berserk but I ran out of time, and going out to eat quick before an event later tonight.

So far the results are pretty similar to Slusher's although there's a few wierd points, I'll try to post the numbers and such once I get the time to put all the information together... Then maybe continue the test tomorrow.

[XxSlusherxx]

nows not the time to be humble, we all know who you are, the gear you have etc. Chances are you were pushing into the higher pDIF for a lot of your leveling 60-75, especially if these are sneak attack shots, this would explain why, since Yuki-Gekko-Kasha push together as your attack gets higher.

This would suggest my attack was capped no?

But, at least based on what I remember reading about the WS equations, I don’t see how that’s possible at those levels on IT mobs with no Minuet/Berserk/etc. It would imply that my damage at level 75 shouldn’t change with or without attack buffs on 75 exp mobs, because if I was capped on IT mobs before with worse equipment and no buffs, why would they not be capped at 75 when my gear is better and mobs are generally much weaker?

It wouldn't really make sense? Unless there's something I'm missing?

well sneak attack would level it out a bit, but other than that, I take back most of that argument lol. Mainly I belive that the patter will follow from my defender tests > my berserk tests > then slowly bend into the bunny tests. I took the fact that Yuki was outdamaging Geko with berserk as an anomaly, but mabye it peaks sooner? we'll see how yours turn out.

I want to add I was actually out to prove that they were the same, for those of you that think I had an agenda.

[RKenshin]

I don't really care either way in the end as well, I'm out to find out whatever is right. My initial tests showed them to be basically the same, but after seeing the tests earlier and my results now I'm interested in testing it further... Still stumps me though with what exactly is different about the WS equations between them.

[XxSlusherxx]

Yes go ahead and laugh at me, but this is my theory on how they operate

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...tled-1copy.jpg

The last final test to see if it's in fact attack based I guess would be to throw in food and minuet 4 on those crabs and see if they are all the same, but I postulate this is what you would see.

[RKenshin]

If that really ends up being true, this whole thing would've been a lot more complicated than simply saying one WS > another or one WS = to another... lol

And yeah, sorry, but I laughed. Good information though!

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

itt we kick gobli's ass

[Ravenlokk]

Yes go ahead and laugh at me, but this is my theory on how they operate

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...tled-1copy.jpg

The last final test to see if it's in fact attack based I guess would be to throw in food and minuet 4 on those crabs and see if they are all the same, but I postulate this is what you would see.

How does TP effect the equation??

[Awoir]

I think slush (Tamag?) did all tests @ 300%?

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

How does TP effect the equation??

TP's effect on each is assumed to be the same so thus doesnt need to be graphed.

[Ravenlokk]

How does TP effect the equation??

TP's effect on each is assumed to be the same so thus doesnt need to be graphed.

Maybe yes, but i (and probably many others) assumed the same for ATK too, so... more graphs!!? Am i the only one who really likes these graphical representations??

[XxSlusherxx]

The question was if Gekko is truely stronger than Yukikaze or Kasha, while we all know from 300 tp tests on rabbits that they max out the same, was it in practice always the same, and the truth seems to be no. I suppose you could say it woule be more prudent to find the diffrence at 100tp but as far as 300 it seems attack plays a large role.

Yea, it was Tamag doing the WSs basically while Nidhogg was busy going SSJ on ON, we had to take a short break when it looked like the second ls was going to wipe also, but it turns out it was just cause FR stole it fun times.

[RKenshin]

I must've overwritten or lost some screens or miscounted, I ended up a little shorter than 20 total for each. But, it's still a pretty good amount of information either way.

I originally tried to do all my WS on EMs, but like 80% of the crabs that popped were DC. On top of that, soon after I started the place was rampaged by an alliance of angry skill uppers/NPC levelers that decided to take every crab possible from me. For the sake of my sanity, while I did stay away from DCs in fear of somehow 'capping' again, I did this test on a mix of EM/T crabs. I tried to get mostly EMs and tried to keep it balanced, but it just didn't work out. EMs were the hardest to find, and while at the start I didn't have trouble (started off testing Yukikaze) it was hell after there was competition.

All of these were with Defender, and 100% certain that all these numbers are without DA, without any buffs on the crab, and without any changing any buffs/debuffs on me that would effect it. I played especially close attention to those details.

The weapon skills on the left are on EM crabs, and the ones on the right are on T crabs, as shown by a corresponding /check. They're all in ascending order by damage.
______________________________________

Tachi: Yukikaze results:
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5766/518cl0.jpg
EM Steelshell
- High: 748
- Low: 518
- Average: 621
T Steelshell
- High: 765
- Low: 518
- Average: 592
Overall
- High: 518
- Low: 748
- Average: 610
______________________________________

Tachi: Kasha results:
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7767/51yn9.jpg
EM Steelshell
- High: 743
- Low: 518
- Average: 645
T Steelshell
- High: 841
- Low: 518
- Average: 694
Overall
- High: 518
- Low: 841
- Average: 673
______________________________________

Tachi: Gekko results:
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9679/708gv2.jpg
EM Steelshell
- High: 993
- Low: 708
- Average: 855
T Steelshell
- High: 993
- Low: 569
- Average: 716
Overall
- High: 993
- Low: 569
- Average: 709
______________________________________

Feel free to check any/all of my numbers, I didn't double check them so it's possible I could've made a mistake.

Weirdest part of the whole test was the incredible frequency of 518 coming up as damage for Yukikaze and even Kasha a few times. Am I hitting some kind of attack floor? Or maybe, to put it better, is the crab's defense capping out against my low attack?

Another wierd part is how Gekko averaged significantly higher on EM mobs than it did on T mobs, while the sample size isn't huge it still seems somewhat likely this may hold true even if I continued to test it more. This would definitely support what Slusher is saying, that Gekko is possibly weaker as your attack gets higher above the mob's defense? I have no clue why/how that would work, but so far evidence is pointing towards that being correct.

I'll try to finish these tests with Berserk some time over the weekend if time permits, I'm really interested in seeing what happens for those results.

[aurik]

If you've ever seen frequency graphs of actual melee, it spikes at your base damage. Can you post your exact gear setup used?

[RKenshin]

Oh, my mistake... I don't know how I forgot to, I meant to put that in my first paragraph.

This was basically my WS gear with a few exceptions:
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7298/wsns1.jpg

Only difference is I unequipped Brutal Earring and then you subtract +17 STR from that, since I didn't use Hasso or attack food. My attack was 306 with Defender up.

I saved to 300% TP every time, and I also switched to the corresponding Gorget for each WS. Or to be more specific, I used Snow Gorget for Yuki/Gekko, and Flame Gorget for Kasha.

Also, as a sidenote.. I used Kaiten a few times and the damage was horrible. Range was from 300-550, and estimating the average to be about 430.

Another sidenote, Attack Down was great on those. On average it seemed to cut the damage the crab would hit me for by about 20-30%, which resulted in me getting hit for 0 most of the time with Phalanx II and defense gear. It would land on almost every mob as well.

[aurik]

Hasso is 10, sis kebabi is 6...what food were you eating in that picture for 7 strength?

Assuming 127 strength,
WMOD = floor(0.83 * floor(0.75 * STR)) = 78
WD = 88
wrank of amano = 9, max fSTR = 17...was a common low-hit value during the testing 105? Or 103, 104? This will tell us what your actual fSTR was.

So your base damage during WS assuming your fSTR is maxed is 183. Likely 181-183. 518/2.6/181 =~ 1.1. (That seems weird, it should be 1.0...it makes me wonder if there's a secondary effect to the gorget that raises pDIF by 0.1 (pre-cap).

Can you re-do the test with yuki and no gorget? Just enough to discover this "sticky" value.

[RKenshin]

Red Curry was on in that WS equipment picture, +7 STR from it.

And yeah sure, whenever I get up in the tree again I'll get some extra Yukikaze numbers with Defender and no gorget. If this weekend ends up being packed with exp PTs it may be a little longer though, one thing I won't do is take exp PT mobs assuming there isn't more than enough to go around.

[aurik]

I bet you hate me now.

Anyway, the explanation to your "sticky 518" is this graph:

http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/img/pdif-v3.gif
In the region between 1.25 and 1.5 on the x-axis, the way that that floor is calculated is not by adjusting the boundary on the random number, but by bumping random numbers less than the floor UP to the floor. Which makes the floor value a lot more common.

However, the line is supposed to be a 1.0x pDIF, which simply doesn't work with your data. It's like the line was at 1.1x pDIF...the additional 0.1 makes me think that possibly the gorget is acting on it, since the gorget also is known to add 0.1 to fTP.

[RKenshin]

Yeah that makes much more sense; I wasn't even aware that could happen.

And I don't mind a little extra work... I'm open for suggestions. In the end it'll only help figure this all out easier and more accurately anyway, I just don't want to disappoint as I may not be able to post the results as soon as I would want to.

But yeah, I'm really curious in the end product of the testing; so far it's working out nothing like anyone in this thread thought it was (or at least as simple).

[mikazuki]

the number of EM crabs you find will be low because they have a lv difference range from your level of 0, tough crabs will be 3x as common (i know this makes all kinds of assumptions about the level of the mobs spawning, but basically it's true), so to decrease the level difference factor you should only take tough crabs (or be very patient for only EM).

aside from the base damage value occuring frequently you should find other numbers occuring in a quantised pattern (think energy levels) which if any of us had the maths skill could be exploited to analyze the damage formula. maybe i'll check if excel is on this computer if there are enough data points to make it worthwhile^^