Magic Accuracy

[FFXIFlux]

Staves don't do as much for potency as people would like to believe

Staves do nothing for potency, absolutely nothing (in the para/slow/blind world). If you're fully skill merited you should have no trouble using a wand anyways, and especially if you have af2 hat. A wonderful bonus to the hat is the ability to debuff in errant body and keep the 15 skill.

Pretty sure the person you quoted meant to say accuracy. Regardless, I've gone back to using staves for slow/para II. Landing them on most mobs is easy, but it's annoying landing them on things like Omega and Cerberus so I just put the staves back in my macro and said fuck it, not going to change it back for the gimpier mobs which I'm fairly close to cap on anyway. On harder mobs, staves aren't a silver bullet for landing though, I still see a lot of resists with terra/aquilo's, and Tiamat still resists slow II sometimes.

For those who care about tests instead of running around blindfolded screaming about leaking vaginas and knowing everything: http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slowoj8.jpg

[Raineer]

While staves in and of themselves don't do anything for potency on Enfeebles, from the tests I've seen the extra accuracy helps to achieve it anyway. In that, getting the 100% unresisted spell *plus* extra potency from stats is better than presumably getting an 80% unresisted spell and then MND bonuses or whatnot.

If I recall, the enfeebling tests posted a while back on Alla and KI, where they guy treated it like a freaking engineering lab with the test results, showed very solid proc rates from what he called "XP" gear...basically a mix of skill and stats, using staves.

For a lot of RDMs, who either have split merits or no merits in Enfeebling, and who the AF2 hat eludes (0/30+ for me, as in no drops period, ever), I think they're still a solid thing to keep in macros. But then again I usually prefer to err on the side of accuracy when it comes to casting.

That's true, but that's like saying that equipping a peacock charm over a spike necklace will make you hit harder. It is the end result, to be sure, but +10 accuracy doesn't make your weapon more potent.

I'm not saying "don't use staves", but you need to be very clear about the deliniation between what they add and what they don't.

As for MND not helping land rate, idk what else to say. I went RDM/NIN to Kirin about 100 years ago with dual Mythic Wand +1's and the most ridiculous MND setup I could gather. I had a better land rate over 4 fights than I ever had with skill gear, even when I got as high as 348.

Oh yeah, and paralyze actually proc'd too. However using anything in sky as your "proof" of one setup over another is idiotic since any RDM will tell you that all the gods are broken with the exception of the mini-gods.

In the ABSENCE of skill, mnd will help you land. It's not as good but to say it has no effect is incorrect.

[aurik]

MND does enhance accuracy on the improtant debuffs but not as much as skill. Don't let flux tell you that MND doesn't add anything, his vagina just leaked all over his log.

I've gone out of my way and tested this stuff, but of course I'm wrong and have a leaky vagina (hello, just get in from recess at your elmentary school?) because, let me guess, a WHM landed a paralyze once when you got a resist, so their higher MND must have done it.

Oh, my understanding had been that it was a function of INT up to a cap of 60sec/90sec. Thanks for clearing that up.

Sleep is 58 seconds, sleep ii is 88. "Impossible to guage" mobs can build up resist and the max duration will go down.

If INT did jack shit for Sleep I'd be pretty screwed since I cast sleep with +2 INT. Likewise if land rate for elemental nukes was INT, I'd be similarly screwed, instead I'm rarely resisted which is a pretty dramatic difference from when I'd use +INT gear because I didn't have the duelist/nashira peices with +elemental/+accuracy.

Anyone that tells you attributes help land rate hasn't tested it.

Post your data if you did tests then. I'm pretty sure that mnd/int give some accuracy bonus to the appropriate debuffs. When I was in Elshimo levelling my rdm sub, I packed on about +35 mnd and got a 95% white magic enfeeble accuracy on everything, even on the IT goblins, but gravity and blind resisted a lot more.

And I've timed sleeps to be exactly 60/90 seconds from the time it lands (not the time it shows up in the log). Resist will cause that time to be halved. It's probably also possible to get 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16 resists, though I haven't ever seen that during testing.

[Raineer]

Staves don't do as much for potency as people would like to believe

Staves do nothing for potency, absolutely nothing (in the para/slow/blind world). If you're fully skill merited you should have no trouble using a wand anyways, and especially if you have af2 hat. A wonderful bonus to the hat is the ability to debuff in errant body and keep the 15 skill.

Pretty sure the person you quoted meant to say accuracy. Regardless, I've gone back to using staves for slow/para II. Landing them on most mobs is easy, but it's annoying landing them on things like Omega and Cerberus so I just put the staves back in my macro and said fuck it, not going to change it back for the gimpier mobs which I'm fairly close to cap on anyway. On harder mobs, staves aren't a silver bullet for landing though, I still see a lot of resists with terra/aquilo's, and Tiamat still resists slow II sometimes.

For those who care about tests instead of running around blindfolded screaming about leaking vaginas and knowing everything: http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slowoj8.jpg

yes because that graph has everything to do with the potency of staves.

leaky vagina lol

edit: data - > http://www.geocities.com/fourth_foot_ca ... Report.doc

Not mine, comes from this thread. Don't 'zam' the thread, it was actually quite awesome as far as math and statistics goes to proving the point.

Summary:
- Staff adds NOTHING to potency over a fully naked RDM but has the best stick rate
- Full MND gives the longest duration, better potency and a far improved land rate over naked
- Best gear is a mix of the two (obviously)


And just for lolz, here's the guide i wrote in November 2004 that explained this all long before anyone believed it.

[Stellar]

The main reason I ask about effects of mind on accuracy are for whm enfeebles like silence, which have no possible potency variations, only accuracy and duration. I never bothered to equip something like a penitents rope in my silence macro, because prior to yesterday, had never heard anything solid on mind's effects on accuracy. I suppose it couldn't hurt to equip the mind gear anyways, but as a PS2 player with limited macro space, rdm macros prove to be rather tricky... Things like nukes, slow, para are a bit different since mind/int plays an important part in the damage/potency.

As far as staves, personally I feel they are the biggest factor in spell accuracy, so I can confidently cast with lower enfeebling skill and higher mind for potency. Since the introduction of para/slow II, accuracy is a bit more important with the higher MP costs. Also on exp mobs, they typically die so fast, the potency of enfeebles wont be highly noticable. Therefore... I use elemental staves as apposed to wand/shield in para and slow macros.. =p

[Isiolia]

That's true, but that's like saying that equipping a peacock charm over a spike necklace will make you hit harder. It is the end result, to be sure, but +10 accuracy doesn't make your weapon more potent.

That would be accurate if melee attacks had damage cut down due to accuracy. While overall DoT may be affected, I don't think that per-hit damage is changed by accuracy. You won't be hitting for 80-100 damage and then hit for 20 damage without something changing with ATT/DEF, etc.

The way I see it is more like nukes, since they seem to me to correlate on a certain level. Nukes will very rarely do no damage, but have a wide range of possible amounts they'll do.
Provided you do damage, your INT, staves, day/weather, MAB, etc all come into play to make the damage better. However, you can still be partially resisted and not do as much overall damage.

I do agree though that magic accuracy is boosted by INT and MND according to magic type. Most of the time it's kinda like gearing with DEX instead of ACC, but I'd be interested to see any tests done with stat thresholds.

[FFXIFlux]

edit: data - > http://www.geocities.com/fourth_foot_ca ... Report.doc

Summary:
- Staff adds NOTHING to potency over a fully naked RDM but has the best stick rate
- Full MND gives the longest duration, better potency and a far improved land rate over naked
- Best gear is a mix of the two (obviously)

Correct summary: We cast paralyze 30 times and claim that proves something when it doesn't.

[Raineer]

edit: data - > http://www.geocities.com/fourth_foot_ca ... Report.doc

Summary:
- Staff adds NOTHING to potency over a fully naked RDM but has the best stick rate
- Full MND gives the longest duration, better potency and a far improved land rate over naked
- Best gear is a mix of the two (obviously)

Correct summary: We cast paralyze 30 times and claim that proves something when it doesn't.

lol, ok flux, i should have taken your brilliance over the years as proof enough. MND helps stick rate, you were the one in another thread who claimed to cast at like 140 MND and I called you out on it. if MND doesn't help then why the hell were you using it? Obviously you can't land anything without staves so how would you even know? Done any naked vs. MND test on your own? Yeah, didn't think so lol

And you post a graph that has nothing whatsoever to do with any topic in the thread. You and I do agree on the fact that MND makes slow more potent, couldn't have seen that one coming. Glad you had a graph for it.

[Raineer]

The main reason I ask about effects of mind on accuracy are for whm enfeebles like silence, which have no possible potency variations, only accuracy and duration.

I equipped MND because it was a white magic spell, but spells that have no variation in effect like silence and sleep were all skill and staff for me. Accuracy and skill seemed to mean everything for duration.

The variable ones were a whole different ballgame. If you have the macros already made then toss in MND/INT, it can't hurt. If not don't go crazy about it unless you use windower macros already.

[FFXIFlux]

lol, ok flux, i should have taken your brilliance over the years as proof enough. MND helps stick rate, you were the one in another thread who claimed to cast at like 140 MND and I called you out on it. if MND doesn't help then why the hell were you using it? Obviously you can't land anything without staves so how would you even know? Done any naked vs. MND test on your own? Yeah, didn't think so lol

And you post a graph that has nothing whatsoever to do with any topic in the thread. You and I do agree on the fact that MND makes slow more potent, couldn't have seen that one coming. Glad you had a graph for it.

Hello? Earth to person answering their own question. No surprise here as to why you can't figure out how the graph is related to what people are saying in this thread.

[aurik]

lol, ok flux, i should have taken your brilliance over the years as proof enough. MND helps stick rate, you were the one in another thread who claimed to cast at like 140 MND and I called you out on it. if MND doesn't help then why the hell were you using it? Obviously you can't land anything without staves so how would you even know? Done any naked vs. MND test on your own? Yeah, didn't think so lol

And you post a graph that has nothing whatsoever to do with any topic in the thread. You and I do agree on the fact that MND makes slow more potent, couldn't have seen that one coming. Glad you had a graph for it.

Hello? Earth to person answering their own question. No surprise here as to why you can't figure out how the graph is related to what people are saying in this thread.

We are talking about MND-vs-accuracy and you post a MND-vs-potency graph...enlighten us, how is that related at all?

[Codernaut]

We are talking about MND-vs-accuracy and you post a MND-vs-potency graph...enlighten us, how is that related at all?

It shows that he's correct about something!

[FFXIFlux]

We are talking about MND-vs-accuracy and you post a MND-vs-potency graph...enlighten us, how is that related at all?

Thats odd, my page 4 has people who are also talking about potency and using staves or wands. Funny, Raineer is even one of them. What thread are you reading?

[aurik]

We are talking about MND-vs-accuracy and you post a MND-vs-potency graph...enlighten us, how is that related at all?

Thats odd, my page 4 has people who are also talking about potency and using staves or wands. Funny, Raineer is even one of them. What thread are you reading?

The one where you included your link in a post that claims staves do nothing for potency? You either need to learn how to think, or learn how to express yourself in a clear manner.

[Seditedi]

No idea, all I can tell you are the things I've noticed.

I don't care enough about the actual calculation or other information tbh. All I know is what I need to do to make my shit not get resisted. And making sure that, pending on the level of the mob, I have the right INT to make my skill matter for the lowest chance of resist possible, is all I can say.

Kirin, that means full Eleskill with INT etudes, putting me around like 340ish with +50INT or something(includes etudes), and completely disregarding -enmity. Whereas for Fafnir, I go with 314skill, +43INT, no INT etudes, and -28enmity because with that I can nuke freely, not get resisted too often, and do a lot more damage than everyone else since I don't pull hate as fast. If I want to never, ever get resisted at Fafnir, I go with a measly +30INT with 340ish skill. And if I want to do the most damage per nuke possible, I kick out all my INT and skill gear that I can and throw in MATK shit. But then my resists shoot up.

If you don't meet the INT cap, basically, in my eyes, your skill doesn't matter in the first place. And 314 is plenty for Fafnir for accuracy.

Good theory, but I've seen little results from this theory of INT cap, for situations that I get resist, I'll usually stack up completely on ele skill and have not noticed a lack of INT causing a resist, you could be right, I'm just saying I have never noticed a similar problem by using too much elemental skill and too little INT, and yes my full ele skill build is very low on INT only like +24 or so from Prism Cape, Snow/Tamas, Penitent's Rope, Abyssal Earring, Phantom Tathlum.

[Ambir]

Three years ago it was commonly accepted that INT/MND affected resistance rates. There was no low level enfeebling gear (in fact AF1 and the Windy Gloves were the only pieces at all from memory) and there was no MagAcc gear at all.

There were a number of JP parses on Vault (if it still exists, it's blocked where I am) that seemed to show this fairly well, and I've always believed it to be true.

Still, Ele Staves>Enfeebling Skill/MagAcc >INT/MND for resistences though, but back before the current gear was in play, INT/MND was the way to go...

[Damen]

I had capped enfeebling from red mage when I was leveling black mage (enfeeb merits as well) i always said to myself "man it's a lot easier to land blind than slow or paralyze" when i was leveling through the 60's in our static. Even if i did get para to land, it rarely (if ever) proced, which I attributed to low MND. My question is...have people with WHM leveled noticed an easier time landing paralyze and slow over say blind and sleep?

Call it placebo, but that was just something I always noticed, which i attributed to stats while leveling BLM up.

[Swatt]

slight derail...

but at what +int +mnd levels do RDM debuffs start getting stronger than nin debuffs? ie... when should i stop annoying the rdm by overwriting his debuffs =p

[spooky]

Anyone that tells you attributes help land rate hasn't tested it.

Any one that reads your post and believes you needs to be put out of their misery. How about you try nuking Kirin with only Ele skill gear, removing all your +INT, see how your resists turn out then.
In my LS, not to boast, put I'm probably the most decked out BLM, AF2 Hat, capped merits, and pretty much every piece of gear I could ever want. [ Except Novio. =( ]
Yet, I seem to be resisted more than Taru BLMs in my LS who do not have capped merits and AF2 hat. Why? Yes because I'm lolElvanBLM. Less INT = More resists. Fact.

[nekoshoonen]

slight derail...

but at what +int +mnd levels do RDM debuffs start getting stronger than nin debuffs? ie... when should i stop annoying the rdm by overwriting his debuffs =p

Land Blind all you want but for the love of all that is holy.... let RDMs deal with Slow and Paralyze.. a NIN's slow and paralyze will be crap compared to a RDM who bothers landing them in at least some MND gear.