Giuliani to Explore 2008 Presidential Run

[Eaglestrike]

Well, the insurgency has killed approx. 150,000 iraqis.

Saddam wasn't that chaotically violent.

Hmm.... hmm...

Yeah...

And that covers what Saddam might have caused. What about the thousands of terrorists that have been attacking the troops. What form of destruction and life loss could they have created elsewhere?

[archibaldcrane]

One successful violent high body count attack in america by non-Iraqis != Iraqis killing americans regularly unless we invade their country.

Don't let fear-mongering affect your decision-making.

[Enkidu]

I think we just gave the crazies a new target, and what better target then the military? Not saying I want people in the military to be killed, just saying there's a much smaller chance of some crazy suicide bomber succeeding in attacking the military as opposed to a civilian in America.

Can you even imagine how many Jihad-ists came into Iraq from other countries to fight? All of those suicide bombers and insurgents were likely candidates to fly planes into buildings, and now they're dead or trying to plan an attack on their home turf. I like it better that way. Not saying the war was a great idea or that things are going fine in Iraq, just saying...

[archibaldcrane]

I'd rather them attempt to attack civilians in america than US soldiers in ill-conceived wars in other countries. It's alot harder to bring the fight to America than in some lawless half-chaotic country like post-invasion Iraq. We shouldn't use our soldiers as some sort of decoy. We owe them that much.

[BRP]

I blame poor management on the many deaths / failures of Iraq the moment the war "ended", not going there. It just so happens both were choices made by the same party. I wouldn't be surprised, in some alternate reality, we still would have gone to war with Iraq if the Democrats won. Then again, for the Democrats to win, they'd need to stop sucking completely, like they did then(not even sure about now, I just don't care anymore).

I'd rather them attempt to attack civilians in america than US soldiers in ill-conceived wars in other countries.

uh, WHAT?

[archibaldcrane]

I'd rather them attempt to attack civilians in america than US soldiers in ill-conceived wars in other countries.

uh, WHAT?

Did...I stutter?

I'd rather have anti-american terrorists attempt to attack US civilians in america than attempt to attack soldiers in lawless countries where we've stuck our soldiers like Iraq. Their chances of success attacking in the united states are much, much less, therefore I'd rather have them try to attack here than our very exposed soldiers in other countries.

I didn't see Iraq as much of a threat to the US pre-invasion. I think the war was a mistake. I think that if we hadn't invaded Iraq there'd be many more Americans and Iraqi civilians alive.

[Eaglestrike]

Weren't there more deaths on 9/11 (a SINGLE successful terrorist attack) than there has been this whole time against US troops?

So if the THOUSANDS of terrorists succeeded just once they could've potentially caused more death than over the last few years. Just once.

[archibaldcrane]

Considering there's been one fatal foreign terrorist attack on american soil in the past, what, 400 years?

Get some perspective. One group attacking us =! Carte Blanche to do whatever we fucking feel like in any country in the world.

9/11 claimed 2,973 lives, accd. to wikipedia. So far in Iraq, the U.S. Military alone has lost 2,853. The "coalition" forces combined have lost 3,099.

I hope I don't need to point out that none of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqi, and no links have been formed connecting Saddam and 9/11.

At what point does an iraqi become a "terrorist"? Is it just when you start attacking the americans who invaded your country? When does legitimate defense of your homeland stop and terrorism begin?

Iraq is fucked - the situation was fucked well before we got there, the only difference then is it was stable and hopelessly trapped beneath a brutal dictator. Now it has a chance for some sort of democracy but is in a small-scale civil war and descending into chaos. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but to argue either way is really rough.

When you start having to argue that "the US body count in Iraq isn't even as bad as 9/11"...you've reached a desperation point in an attempt to justify the action, as far as I'm concerned.

[Fuuko]

Well, the insurgency has killed approx. 150,000 iraqis.

Saddam wasn't that chaotically violent.

It is more around 50,000 Iraq's killed by the insurgency. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Saddam killed over 400,000 Kurds in his genocidal attacks on towards them. That is just the Kurds, not the random people/towns he had murdered, or the rape rooms, or any of the other mass graves.

Considering there's been one fatal foreign terrorist attack on american soil in the past, what, 400 years?

There have been quite a few attacks on American soil, The first World Trade Center bombing and all the attacks on our embassy's.

At what point does an iraqi become a "terrorist"? Is it just when you start attacking the americans who invaded your country? When does legitimate defense of your homeland stop and terrorism begin?

When they start blowing up innocent civilians.

How can you actually think blowing up school bus full of kids, is defending your homeland.....How is it possible that you are that stupid, I mean really.

[Eaglestrike]

The people attacking american troops in Iraq are largely from different countries. They're not Iraqis, just anti-americans in one of the surrounding countries.

[archibaldcrane]

Hassan Salem, of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, or SCIRI, said the 150,000 figure included civilians, police and the bodies of people who were abducted, later found dead and collected at morgues run by the Health Ministry. SCIRI is Iraq's largest Shiite political organization and holds the largest number of seats in parliament.
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Anyway, it's alot of fucking people, and when we start saying one side is better than another because one side resulted in 50,000 deaths and the other resulted in 100,000 deaths, for example, you know you're dealing with a totally fucked situation.

What it comes down to is, I don't feel any safer in America post-iraq invasion.

If you do feel safer because of it, and feel that presumed safety was worth over 2,800 american soldiers' lives, that's a judgement call. Noone knows definitively what would've happened if we hadn't invaded Iraq. What I do know is that we invaded their country with the full force of our military with the intent of toppling their established leadership, which to me was just NOT OK.

(insert appropriate "You're doing it wrong" pic here)

[Eaglestrike]

I don't think anyone is saying they feel safer. Just that it wouldn't be too different if the Dems were in charge.

[edgarfigaro]

I don't see why Gore isn't a viable candidate for 08. Aside from the whole he-doesn't-want-to-run thing.

An Inconvenient Truth pretty much sunk him in terms of winning. Plus that goatee is horrible.

[Matricide]

On a personal level, and to be honest, I think he's a retard and would make a horrible leader (not much different than bush here). Sure he did a 'good job' after 9/11, but from what i hear he was a terrible mayor.

I don't know if anyone watched him after the first debate in the 2004 election. Jon Stewart spoke to him and he made a complete fool of himself with his support for Bush, I would never want anyone like that running my country.

Pretty much anyone who said Bush 'won' that first debate in the last election loses by default IMO. That's just what stands out for me. I'd say Clinton is a crappy choice as well but I think she'd do a better job.

[Eternus]

The reason Iraq got invaded is because in the 80s we sold them weapons (fun stuff like biological/chemical weapons yay). You know the whole Iran-Contra thing. Those weapons were used by Saddam to kill 100k+ Kurds in Northern Iraq and later used to gas our own troops in Desert Storm. The weapons we sold to Saddam either were all used up in Desert Storm or they magically disappeared between then and now. The whole reason why the US sold him those weapons was for him to use them against Iran anyway. The day we decided to sell them weapons, their invasion became inevitable. It was just a matter of time until Iraq was invaded to be honest. Brilliant move by the Reagan administration lol (Bush Sr. was the VP).

[Septimus]

Time to sum up the frontrunners for the 2008 election.

Rudy Giuliani- On his third wife, married his cousin, currently married to his mistress, crime rate fell all over the country not just in New York, took a bunch of money to fix the crime problem in Mexico City with no results, pro-choice and pro-gay-marriage stances (and being Italian) will alienate the redneck vote needed to win the primary.

John McCain- Too busy palling around with the extreme right-wing to bother keeping up his centrist charade.

Hillary Clinton- No one likes her, only real selling point is her husband.

Barack Obama- Has no real experience what-so-ever running a government, only real selling point is that Oprah loves him.

I think we all know what that means...

Bill Clinton in 2008!

[PussPuss]

Did the mid-term election not show us that there is a anti-republican movement in America after the war? Not gunna get into the argument about the war but I will say Giuliani was a shitty mayor, he was largely disliked before 9/11...which is the only reason he ended his term on a good note and looked like a good mayor.

I'm gunna predict a landslide for democrats unless Bush ends his term on a really, really good note.

[Avvesione]

Time to sum up the frontrunners for the 2008 election.

Rudy Giuliani- On his third wife, married his cousin, currently married to his mistress, crime rate fell all over the country not just in New York, took a bunch of money to fix the crime problem in Mexico City with no results, pro-choice and pro-gay-marriage stances (and being Italian) will alienate the redneck vote needed to win the primary.

John McCain- Too busy palling around with the extreme right-wing to bother keeping up his centrist charade.

Hillary Clinton- No one likes her, only real selling point is her husband.

Barack Obama- Has no real experience what-so-ever running a government, only real selling point is that Oprah loves him.

I think we all know what that means...

Bill Clinton in 2008!

I was thinking Jeb Bush or George H. W. Bush would run again, except get one on the democrat side and one on the republican side.

[Fuuko]

The reason Iraq got invaded is because in the 80s we sold them weapons (fun stuff like biological/chemical weapons yay). You know the whole Iran-Contra thing. Those weapons were used by Saddam to kill 100k+ Kurds in Northern Iraq and later used to gas our own troops in Desert Storm. The weapons we sold to Saddam either were all used up in Desert Storm or they magically disappeared between then and now. The whole reason why the US sold him those weapons was for him to use them against Iran anyway. The day we decided to sell them weapons, their invasion became inevitable. It was just a matter of time until Iraq was invaded to be honest. Brilliant move by the Reagan administration lol (Bush Sr. was the VP).

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We did not sell Iraq anything in the Iran-Contra deal, we sold weapons to IRAN, who was in war with Iraq at the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair

This is why I hate politics, you get so many people who are so filled with passion about issues, yet they are totally ignorant of the facts.

[Septimus]

The reason Iraq got invaded is because in the 80s we sold them weapons (fun stuff like biological/chemical weapons yay). You know the whole Iran-Contra thing. Those weapons were used by Saddam to kill 100k+ Kurds in Northern Iraq and later used to gas our own troops in Desert Storm. The weapons we sold to Saddam either were all used up in Desert Storm or they magically disappeared between then and now. The whole reason why the US sold him those weapons was for him to use them against Iran anyway. The day we decided to sell them weapons, their invasion became inevitable. It was just a matter of time until Iraq was invaded to be honest. Brilliant move by the Reagan administration lol (Bush Sr. was the VP).

...............

..........................

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We did not sell Iraq anything in the Iran-Contra deal, we sold weapons to IRAN, who was in war with Iraq at the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair

This is why I hate politics, you get so many people who are so filled with passion about issues, yet they are totally ignorant of the facts.

Stop picking at nits. That picture of Rummy meeting with Saddam didn't come from a chance meeting at an I-Hop. He may not have had the details right, but Iraq got a lot of weapons from the U.S. in order to fight Iran. Or are we currently revising the history that we find inconvenient?