First Treatise on Linkshells

[Kyomu]

I agree wholeheartedly with the "Family" stuff you bring up. Been dealing with that for a while and being treated like a child with the "Now now, play nice" stuff gets old even in a social. I have a mom already, thanks.

I'd like to know your opinion on points systems and the like, considering the huge amount of arguments that have gone on about them here. Would you take your "leader" concept to the logical conclusion and go with a "leader decides impartially" system to distribute loot in an LS like this? If everyone is inherently selfish, how do you avoid drama with a system like this, because it doesn't matter how impartial the leader is, someone will always take offense at being passed up.

I assume it'll come down to a matter of trust between members and leaders, and the quality of the recruitment process to avoid people who get butthurt about that type of thing, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on the subject.

[Tamashii]

it seems each system has its drawbacks:

if it's done it by 'merit', then the novice players will start drama about favoiritism.

alternately, if done by points, people will tend not to put in the effort - just attend, do their bare minimum, and get what they want, and leave; higher event failure rate.

in all cases, any system or rule is not 100% foolproof because the x-factor is the PLAYERS THEMSELVES not trying hard and doing their best, not thinking in a teamwork fashion, being overly selfish/immature. and in the end, there's just not enough decent considerate people on a server to create many good linkshells.

[Kyomu]

it seems each system has its drawbacks:

if it's done it by 'merit', then the novice players will start drama about favoiritism.

alternately, if done by points, people will tend not to put in the effort - just attend, do their bare minimum, and get what they want, and leave; higher event failure rate.

in all cases, any system or rule is not 100% foolproof because the x-factor is the PLAYERS THEMSELVES not trying hard and doing their best, not thinking in a teamwork fashion, being overly selfish/immature. and in the end, there's just not enough decent considerate people on a server to create many good linkshells.

Agreed, but how would you combat the "lack of decent, considerate people?" Unfortunately FFXI requires a huge amount of people to get anyone anything substantial, and people tend not to play nice. Is it something that can be overcome in a typical situation to make "the perfect linkshell" or is it just something that has to be dealt with as it comes?
I know that sounds retarded and probably isn't making my point, but is there any method to offset the fact that people are in general assholes about loot?

[Saga]

Considering we're reading Hume's "A Treatise on Human Nature" right now in one of my classes, this was incredible. >_>

[Tamashii]

it seems each system has its drawbacks:

if it's done it by 'merit', then the novice players will start drama about favoiritism.

alternately, if done by points, people will tend not to put in the effort - just attend, do their bare minimum, and get what they want, and leave; higher event failure rate.

in all cases, any system or rule is not 100% foolproof because the x-factor is the PLAYERS THEMSELVES not trying hard and doing their best, not thinking in a teamwork fashion, being overly selfish/immature. and in the end, there's just not enough decent considerate people on a server to create many good linkshells.

Agreed, but how would you combat the "lack of decent, considerate people?" Unfortunately FFXI requires a huge amount of people to get anyone anything substantial, and people tend not to play nice. Is it something that can be overcome in a typical situation to make "the perfect linkshell" or is it just something that has to be dealt with as it comes?
I know that sounds retarded and probably isn't making my point, but is there any method to offset the fact that people are in general assholes about loot?

its unfortunate, but i really don't see a way to combat the latter, you can only give it time it seems...

people need time to think of their surroundings, and mature. though it seems a lot who play this game don't mature.

Edit: oh hey kyomu. just realized its you w

[Daahan]

What about plot as a motivating factor?

Personally, I wouldn't say that I don't want gear, because I do, but when there is story, I consider that more interesting than doing gear stuff, and can be a motivating factor in and of itself, albeit for a small percentage of the playerbase :X

You answered your own question. There will never be an endgame linkshell where the majority of the members play for the storyline. Even if the main reason people play is for the story, there is a profound chance that their secondary reason is along the lines of gear.

I'd like to know your opinion on points systems and the like, considering the huge amount of arguments that have gone on about them here. Would you take your "leader" concept to the logical conclusion and go with a "leader decides impartially" system to distribute loot in an LS like this? If everyone is inherently selfish, how do you avoid drama with a system like this, because it doesn't matter how impartial the leader is, someone will always take offense at being passed up.

I assume it'll come down to a matter of trust between members and leaders, and the quality of the recruitment process to avoid people who get butthurt about that type of thing, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on the subject.

I would like to avoid that particular discussion right now, because it's going to be a main topic in my next Treatise. I trust that topic alone will add a lot more pages of discussion in the next Treatise But I do have some thoughts on point systems.

[Kyomu]

its unfortunate, but i really don't see a way to combat the latter, you can only give it time it seems...

people need time to think of their surroundings, and mature. though it seems a lot who play this game don't mature.

Edit: oh hey kyomu. just realized its you w

Hey Tamashii. And I totally agree, unfortunately that's not something that can be controlled as an LS leader. Along with, "Cities again, um, I have to brush my hair" and knowing an event is going on a week in advance and still needing to mule when it starts!

I would like to avoid that particular discussion right now, because it's going to be a main topic in my next Treatise. I trust that topic alone will add a lot more pages of discussion in the next Treatise But I do have some thoughts on point systems.

Understood, eagerly looking forward to your next one!

[Elmer the Pointy]

I don't think there is any reliable way to combat greedy players. People want their items and regardless of the system, there's going to be issues if they don't get them. But here are a few suggestions:

Recruiting
Too many linkshells simply open the floodgates for membership and pull in any old schmo. I joined a Dynamis shell in recent months to help out a friend. He needed BLMs to start up, so I said OK. It started real small but it was fun farming and working with people I knew.
Then the floodgates opened Every Dynamis you see: "/l This is my first time in Dynamis! lol" You get BLM Sleepga'ing every which way with no rhyme or reason, lvl 65 melees all over the place, people tanking the wrong mobs, people hiding in the corners, d/c, etc

Dedication
You can't be a loot whore. As a leader you should be the last to receive your items, but your members should want you to be the first. Put them before yourself and they will reward you. Too many leaders simply want to "pimp out their toon" and then take it easy. That's a bad example for your members and encourages them to do the bare minimum.

Fairness
It doesn't matter what system you use, you have to be fair. Tell the greedy players to get bent because they won't receive anything without working hard. Tell your friends (nicely) that they'll have to work hard too. You can only pee on the grunts for so long until they realize it's not raining and break off to make their own shell. Now you have competition and drama to deal with.

Discipline
People make mistakes, but I think most of us can tell the difference between an honest mistake and a retard. Everyone should take the time to listen to the leader(s) about what they are doing, how they are doing it, and what their specific job is. Sometimes you can give it a good "lol" and be on your way, but in a tense situation where a lot of people's time and effort are concerned, punishment in some fashion is good to keep things running smoothly the next time.



Many things in this game don't take the amount of people that they used to. I don't think people need to be as afraid of losing members as they are. I know this is just a game, FFXI isn't a job. But since we're talking serious endgaming here, there needs to be a serious attitude towards it.

The shells that take it the most seriously usually end up having the most fun. You get the job done, you have the celebrations, and the members become closer and more deidcated through their successes together.

So it may seem like it's way too complicated for a simple video game, but it really is a big commitment to do these events and get these items for everyone. At the same time, you don't have to forget the fun stuff.

One example of something I heard (was it Spoondaggers? i dunno), but the Linkshell would all go en masse with a person to get an abjuration cleansed. It may sound kinda minor, maybe lame to some people but it's stuff like that that adds a little levity to the frustration of endgame and really lets you know you've accomplished something fun and with the support of many other players. Players who you will in turn support in the future.

[Drace]

Dedication
You can't be a loot whore. As a leader you should be the last to receive your items, but your members should want you to be the first. Put them before yourself and they will reward you. Too many leaders simply want to "pimp out their toon" and then take it easy. That's a bad example for your members and encourages them to do the bare minimum.

Very true - leaders that have these qualities are extremely rare, though I have seen a few. Along those lines, here is some info about servant leadership that fits well with the 2 main types of leaders you see in most areas, FFXI included. I would say 1% fall into the "servant first" category, 99% in the "pimp my toon" category.

“The servant-leader is servant first… It begins with the natural feeling that one wants to serve, to serve first. Then conscious choice brings one to aspire to lead. He or she is sharply different from the person who is leader first, perhaps because of the need to assuage an unusual power drive or to acquire material possessions. For such it will be a later choice to serve – after leadership is established. The leader-first and the servant-first are two extreme types. Between them there are shadings and blends that are part of the infinite variety of human nature.

The difference manifest itself in the care taken by the servant-first to make sure that other people’s highest priority needs are being served. The best test, and difficult to administer , is: do those served grow as persons; do they, while being served, become healthier, wiser, freer, more autonomous, more likely themselves to become servants? And, what is the effect on the least privileged in society; will they benefit, or, at least, will they not be further deprived?”

Obviously, some of the more extreme points of servant leadership won't really transfer well into FFXI, as the OP explained well the point that most players are selfish in nature, even if this is not necessarily a negative selfishness. For the most part, we all want to be rewarded for the money we spend on a video game by some sort of self improvement (gear, merits, status etc), but in doing so, would you rather play along-side Gandhi or Kim Jong-il?

In my experience, there are more than enough dense asshats to always fill out rosters for the power hungry/greedy/low self-esteem "Pimp My Toon" (©Elmerthepointy) leaders. The amount of more mature players, and selfless leaders to make and maintain successful linkshells will always be rare.

Fairness
You can only pee on the grunts for so long until they realize it's not raining

<3

[Alvinho]

Very nice OP, very nice. I'm going to urge my LS to read this, even though we already do over 90% of what you wrote.

[Bluedemon]

That's a pretty decent variation. However, it is often the case that a linkshell member will try and get their friend in to the linkshell, and to do they they vouch for him/her. During my time, I have seen countless cases of a LS member trying to get their friend in to the LS, and the friend ended up sucking so horribly bad, that I'd refer that person to my 'On Idiocy' section. That's why I believe a non-pearled trial is necessary. Also, I believe that everyone should go through a trial period, no exceptions.

This is where it becomes important for the admin team to keep the discussion towards an applicant on topic towards what the linkshells goals/needs are and what the applicant brings to the table to accomplish those goals and needs. As long as the admin team keeps everyone focused on the path of the shell, theres very little friends can do to get a buddy pearled who just doesn't offer what the linkshell needs.

[Elesirdur]

Printed it out, reading it right now.

Daahan, and anyone else for that matter, you might be interested in reading through a constitution I drew up in the spring of 2006 as a last ditch effort to attempt to hold Fantajii together (in retrospect, lawl). Clearly the design of this constitution was to keep intact the structure of Fanta at the time, which I see you discuss in your own treatise, but is not necessarily one I would endorse in the future without my clause of having bi-monthly leadership review elections.

Anyways, take a quick peek through. I think if more LS' want to take their rules and regulations seriously they need them set down in a formal and legal manner that prevents a lot of the "he said, she said" arguments surround vague or non-existent regulations and their interpretations.

Draft Constitution Doccuments:

MSWord 2002 .doc ~ linky

.rtf format ~ linky

[Warthog]

Some things that weren't pointed out, that I feel are important.

Regarding a LS trial period, and the choice not to pearl:

From Applicant's perspective
(1) It depends on the background of such a LS, and past accomplishments, to be able to thouroughly illustrate this. Meaning basically, that, if a LS is known to be held at a "higher" state than other LS's on a given server, admittance standards will differ because of this. Having said that, i feel that it becomes the sole responsibility of the applicant to make himself/herself available to the LS Leader, or Sackholders as to what is the weekly agenda. This is AFTER a Leader or Sackholder has contacted said applicant, and informed them of their trial opportunity. I have always felt that exhibiting this kind of initiative, usually depicts a person's punctuality and dedication level. The act of "applying" to a LS, in plain english, is no different than "applying" to anything in life. Whereas one "tries out" for a limited position, and demonstrates their abilities and commitment levels, before a council or team (Linkshell, or Officers).

**Since we are talking about a game here, the level of seriousness tends to diminish, when discussing real issues.
It all depends, I guess, upon the degree of which any organization tends to operate. **

(2) To explain the act of NOT giving out a pearl until a trialee has successfully demonstrated his/her worth to a LS: As with the pearling process, [usually] bears with it, access to private Members' Section on the forums, and other royalties, to be later specified. I like to think of this phase as "rewarding said person with the necessacy tools that makes them a member". Including, but not limited to NM Death Times, LS Strategies, Monetary Policies, Lotting Rights, Item Sign-up Sheets (where members can express interest in a specific item thus influencing the scope of future LS events.)


Regardless of these standards, all Linkshells will have different opinions and principles as to which they operate. In the end, it all comes down to one question:

How does your LS get things done?

When we talk about rewarding members with items, and how drama is created when people aren't rewarded in a manner consistent with their attendance and dedication, no conclusions can be made. Mainly since, we have absolutely no control over when items will become available to members. Some LS's simply operate in different manners, and on different servers, alike, will operate uniquely to coincide with their special circumstances. The question, as stated above: How does your LS get things done? sets the tone for how items will be distributed. A lot more can be said about this, but at a later time.

ex: How some LS's may "junk" certain items, or reward to new recruits, that other LS's may deem worth more. Usually classified as sky drops (less Kirin's drops) and Sea Jailer Weapons... [As examples only]. An item or items in abundance, or of lesser value than others, which are either free lotted, or "junked".

Its comical, how we set these standards to abide by, yet these guidelines set to govern a vitrual world. I guess, the way i best like to look at it is, to simply have integrity in everything you do.

Permission to copy:
Daahan has full administrive rights to use any info in this post, without the need to properly cite said works. The above post does not need to maintain verbatim. [Daahan] is given (and along with any admin or moderator) full authoritative rights to copy/paste or reword any portion of this post, as they see fit.

People just dont talk this way anymore..... Its fun to use this type of grammar (whether it is proper or just my interpretation of what is proper). I want to thank Daahan for getting my mind in this type of mood for the day. You are a true Messenger of the Church!

[Daahan]

Recruiting
Too many linkshells simply open the floodgates for membership and pull in any old schmo. I joined a Dynamis shell in recent months to help out a friend. He needed BLMs to start up, so I said OK. It started real small but it was fun farming and working with people I knew.
Then the floodgates opened Sad Every Dynamis you see: "/l This is my first time in Dynamis! lol" You get BLM Sleepga'ing every which way with no rhyme or reason, lvl 65 melees all over the place, people tanking the wrong mobs, people hiding in the corners, d/c, etc

I agree. I explicitly mentioned that in On the Expansion of Linkshells

Come to think of it Elmer most of the points you made I mentioned in the Treatise

Daahan, and anyone else for that matter, you might be interested in reading through a constitution I drew up in the spring of 2006 as a last ditch effort to attempt to hold Fantajii together (in retrospect, lawl). Clearly the design of this constitution was to keep intact the structure of Fanta at the time, which I see you discuss in your own treatise, but is not necessarily one I would endorse in the future without my clause of having bi-monthly leadership review elections.

I have read it before. "Constitutions" are ok, I guess. They are pretty much like any other set of rules a linkshell should I have. The Laws of a Linkshell will be a topic in my next Treatise. Most of the constiution seems to revolve around council leadership though, and after reading this Treatise you know my thoughts on council leadership.

To explain the act of NOT giving out a pearl until a trialee has successfully demonstrated his/her worth to a LS: As with the pearling process, [usually] bears with it, access to private Members' Section on the forums, and other royalties, to be later specified. I like to think of this phase as "rewarding said person with the necessacy tools that makes them a member". Including, but not limited to NM Death Times, LS Strategies, Monetary Policies, Lotting Rights, Item Sign-up Sheets (where members can express interest in a specific item thus influencing the scope of future LS events.)

Hey I did mention this But I didn't mention the part of giving DTs away, strategies away, etc. These kinds of people are rare, but it's not easy to catch them.

People just dont talk this way anymore..... Its fun to use this type of grammar (whether it is proper or just my interpretation of what is proper). I want to thank Daahan for getting my mind in this type of mood for the day. You are a true Messenger of the Church!

My first aim is the spiritual, intellectual, and political enlightenment of BG forums

My second aim is to please.

My third aim is to denounce morons.

My fourth aim...is a secret.

[Elmer the Pointy]

Come to think of it Elmer most of the points you made I mentioned in the Treatise

Well, we both draw inspiration from the same source.

Praise be to Yin.

I'm just contributing my views on the subject and I happen to agree, that's all

[Deuce]

Any views or ideas you might like to share on how large a shell should be, in terms of membership. Such as sheer numbers, like ~30 members or something. Many linkshells get too big and things become complicated. There are some Dynamis and Sky LSes on my server with 40+ members. My old Dynamis LS could easily farm with ~20-25 people and we barely lost a win in glacier with 22.

Just some LSes are really big and I think it can be a little unnecessary.

[Elesirdur]

My fourth aim...is a secret.

...Profit?


In any event, I read through the entire document last night and found myself agreeing with many of the points. In particular, I wholeheartedly agree with the fallacy of the 'Linkshell as a family' mentality. Perhaps the people who pursue such a misguided agenda seek in a Linkshell to have their own ersatz family because of the lack of what they perceived as a 'proper' family of their own by blood. Family's don't work because the membership only changes when someone is born or dies and you can't kick someone out of a family for poor behavior. Similarly, no respectable business would retain employees that are unproductive and obtrusive to the efficient operation of their venture. Why anyone would proceed to build a Linkshell (essentially a business venture) on anything but a business model confounds me. But hey, I like my family and don't need to find a surrogate one online so perhaps I'm just the odd man out.

I can't really think of anything I strongly disagree with. Once you've finished your series of works I would recommend going back through and editing these for language and wording. The political ideas make me think of Locke, but then the language still reminds me I'm reading a forum post.

Eagerly awaiting vol. 2.

[Daahan]

Once you've finished your series of works I would recommend going back through and editing these for language and wording. The political ideas make me think of Locke, but then the language still reminds me I'm reading a forum post.

That was the point :D

I proofread it several times before I posted it. I meant for it to be a mix of forum post and pre-modern political science.

That's why in one of my sentences I say, "On the contrary Mr. Bond."

[Daahan]

Any views or ideas you might like to share on how large a shell should be, in terms of membership. Such as sheer numbers, like ~30 members or something. Many linkshells get too big and things become complicated. There are some Dynamis and Sky LSes on my server with 40+ members. My old Dynamis LS could easily farm with ~20-25 people and we barely lost a win in glacier with 22.

Just some LSes are really big and I think it can be a little unnecessary.

Each linkshell should have its own particular number of members. I can't state or recommend a set amount of people for a linkshell. Recruiting should not be hasty and should be done slowly. If the linkshell often finds itself short on people for events or having to cancel events, then they should actively recruit. If they take recruitment step by step from the beginning, they should not have problems with having too many members.

Also need to make sure you recruit the right jobs in the right amounts. No good having 15 bards and 2 plds.

[Setats]

Any views or ideas you might like to share on how large a shell should be, in terms of membership. Such as sheer numbers, like ~30 members or something. Many linkshells get too big and things become complicated. There are some Dynamis and Sky LSes on my server with 40+ members. My old Dynamis LS could easily farm with ~20-25 people and we barely lost a win in glacier with 22.

Just some LSes are really big and I think it can be a little unnecessary.

I have mixed emotions on this matter. Coming from a linkshell that has always been rather small, I denounced the idea of mass recruiting and whatnot. It always felt better to do things with a smaller amount of people than those that use a lot (especially Dynamis).

However, the problem with small linkshells is having to rely on the same people every day. Eventually, the core members get tired and need breaks. When this happens you find that your linkshell is sort of either falling apart or slowing down dramatically. I've often considered whether having a larger linkshell would prevent such incidents. That being said, I still prefer a smaller linkshell.

It's nearly impossible to get the perfect size. Even if you find yourself with deficient numbers, you need to keep yourself active and constantly doing SOMETHING. I can't emphasize how important it is to keep your linkshell busy, but not TOO busy that everyone is ready to quit.

On that note, Dahaan (and anyone else with thoughts on this matter), what are your thoughts on linkshell activity. How do you keep a linkshell busy without burning your members out and ready to quit?