KRAMER SNAPS LOL

[Marquisate]

I don't get all the complaining about "reverse racism" - someone was heckling him (what they said isn't shown, but if it was anything serious they would have been kicked out of the club before a reaction like his was warranted)

Lol.

Have you ever been to a big-time comedy club? Heckling is part of the experience many times - you'd have to be seriously unruly to get thrown out - and heckling with speech alone is not, unless it's the most extreme circumstances, warranting an ejection.

I think part of the problem here is that many, many of the people judging this situation haven't really been to comedy clubs in NY/LA - they think that comedy shows are normally like what they see on Comedy Central - controlled, relatively clean, TV friendly. A large portion of the time they are not. These are the places where the edges of comedy are explored and pushed, and punishing someone this hard for going overboard while pushing these limits is ridiculous. I don't want my comics being gunshy on stage - sometimes you have to go with your gut and display what is inside. If you can't do that on a non-televised stand-up comedy stage for an audience of adults without fear of ridiculous backlash if it goes wrong, the art form is neutered.

And that's terrible.

I think that I have a pretty good sense of humor - I like edgy guys like Sam Kinnison and I don't turn pale at blue language or race humor. However, what Kramer said, IMO, wasn't funny - it was uncalled for and struck at an entire racial group rather than addressing the one member of the audience in question. His tone, body language, etc. didn't indicate, to me, that he was trying to be funny. It looks far more plausible that he simply broke down and lashed out with a tirade of racially-charged comments. I think it's even more telling that major comics (black or white) haven't come to his side to defend his ability to say what he wants on stage - they all seem pretty unanimous in agreement that it wasn't funny or intended to be funny.

It might be a little more plausible if the entire performance was shown, and the audience members were seen calling him a "cracker ass" or making other racial insults before he broke down, but from what's online and on the television it looks like he went there without provocation. Think about it this way - you're at a comedy club and you don't like the comic on stage. You tell him he sucks, he's terrible, you want a refund, etc. a few times during the performance. Then he wheels on you and says "get back in the incinerator oven you kike!" then points at you and calls you a "yid" over and over. Or suppose he says "fuck you, greasy dago guinea piece of shit, go back home and make me a pizza you spaghetti nigger". Wouldn't that strike you as just a little bit out of line? What if you were someone else in the audience who was jewish or italian-american? Those comments cut a lot harder and with a wider stroke than, for example, George Carlin's hilarious crushing of an annoying heckler (posted earlier).

[archibaldcrane]

Again, I don't want "calling a black heckler a nigger" to be off-limits when I pay to see a stand-up comedy show.

ok, to each his own. clearly you are not black.

Hey, sometimes calling black people niggers can be funny. You personally might not find it funny ever, but you have to acknowledge that it can be funny to some people. I don't want anything that can be potentially funny to be off the table, and wanting to see good comedy shouldn't be race-specific. I'm sure black people like good comedy too...unless you're saying that black people don't want to encourage potentially funny things?

[Anyway]

Hmm... odd. Around here girls like flip out if you call them a slut, but I say "Stop being a cunt" all the time. But they also say "You're such a dick." so it's an exchange of sexual organ based insults.

[archibaldcrane]

Think about it this way - you're at a comedy club and you don't like the comic on stage. You tell him he sucks, he's terrible, you want a refund, etc. a few times during the performance. Then he wheels on you and says "get back in the incinerator oven you kike!" then points at you and calls you a "yid" over and over. Or suppose he says "fuck you, greasy dago guinea piece of shit, go back home and make me a pizza you spaghetti nigger". Wouldn't that strike you as just a little bit out of line? What if you were someone else in the audience who was jewish or italian-american? Those comments cut a lot harder and with a wider stroke than, for example, George Carlin's hilarious crushing of an annoying heckler (posted earlier).

Hey, we're saying the same thing here. If you're going to crush a heckler, you gotta be funny. However, in pursuit of this, you should be able to say whatever you want - you're on stage, you're there to be funny, nothing should be off limits. Michael Richards failed, not for using the word nigger or talking about racial stereotypes, he failed because he wasn't funny.

Comedians say racist/sexist/religion-specific derogatory comments all the time. If it's funny, guess what? IT'S OK.

He just failed because he wasn't funny. Another thing you'll learn if you go to comedy clubs alot, is that many if not most comedians aren't funny on a day-to-day basis. This headline should've said "Michael Richards is Not Funny When Dealing With Hecklers. He's Just Kind of a Spaz."

[SephYuyX]

Everyone just needs to watch Boondocks season 1.

[Marquisate]

the effects of slavery are still affecting america right now.

Mainly because people keep making a big deal out of it.

It seems everyone forgot the whole "non-violence" approach MLKJr had, you think he'd start bitching and yelling everytime the word nigger was used somewhere? No, he'd fucking ignore it. He wouldn't start crying about how some guy used the word, eventually people would stop using it in an offensive way (holy shit guess what, a lot of people no longer use it offensively!)

We're still dealing with the past because people keep bringing up the past. Lets move on.

I have to disagree. Many people argue that the breakup of black families in the slave trade prevented strong, stable african-american communities from forming and created a subculture where broken families were normal and acceptable. I'm not enough of an expert to comment myself, but it seems more than a little unfair that we enslave a race for several hundred years, then grant them freedom but limited rights, dominate them for another hundred years, then finally pass the Civil Rights Act and then say that it resolves the matter entirely.

There are a lot of historical events that get swept under the rug when discussing past discrimination that currently affects african-americans. Consider, for example, how the New York state government, along with many other state governments, blacklisted african-americans (and to a lesser extent, jews and several other groups) from home lending policies while giving generous low-interest loans to the majority of white ethnic groups, encouraging the latter to move out to the suburbs in the 1950's. As blacks moved north to escape Jim Crow laws and gain better work opportunities, their mass immigration to inner cities only hastened the "white flight" to the 'burbs. The result? The majority of black families were stuck in inner-city environments and denied lending opportunities to move outside of them, while generous loan terms helped whites move into new, shining suburb communities in areas like Long Island.

"All Deliberate Speed" by Charles J. Ogletree, Jr., is a great discussion of how, even 50 years after Brown v. Board of Education, our schools are still extremely unintegrated. Our living communities are extremely unintegrated. Moreover, schools with a majority of black students are extremely underfunded because school spending depends on local property taxes - one of my white friends went to a high school on Long Island with a robotics team and a fencing team, while one of my black friends went to school in Brooklyn and had students crammed 40 or 50 to a classroom, some without desks.

Now, if you don't have equality of education, how can you expect people to have equal access to the same level of jobs, income, intellectual stimulation, etc.? Equality of education is the most basic element of an egalitarian democractic society IMO, and we don't come anywhere close to meeting that standard. IMO, we don't need less discussion about race issues, we need MORE discussion, because we like to sweep it all under the rug and say "in America, if people are motivated they can perform well no matter what." That idyllic notion has been popular in America since the 1700's and it's comforting...at least, for people with money, power and education.

[Kuya]

That was quite possibly the most well informed post in this thread, ill go read that book.

[Marquisate]

That was quite possibly the most well informed post in this thread, ill go read that book.

Thanks. One of my beefs with contemporary education is that they act like the way to deal with racial issues is to say "well, things used to be bad, but we passed the CRA and it fixed everything! yeah!" and then they have black history month where they read Maya Angelou and talk about Frederick Douglass and call it a day.

We need to discuss racial, social, ethnic and economic issues in high school, you can't just relegate important information that everyone should know to college electives, unless you want to make college free. Everyone should be exposed to this debate so that they can be informed and aware that it exists. IMO, being an informed and aware member of society is more important than anything else you learn in school (names of past presidents, calculus, chemistry, etc.)

[Demosthenes11]

lol, or you could read a book by a black man that doesn't take no for an answer and puts an end to the racial bullshit used as a safety net by far too many people today (Larry Elder, book titled "The Ten things you can't say in America" delves into today's racial discussion).

And uh, thats a really great story, is that why some of our most successful people in the USA are black? Hi mr. powell or mrs. Winfrey.

You said it yourself, it's a problem with the innercity (poor performance = low funding). hay lewk there are whites in those classrooms today now too. Bill Cosby is tired of the race card, and so is the rest of america

[Marquisate]

Think about it this way - you're at a comedy club and you don't like the comic on stage. You tell him he sucks, he's terrible, you want a refund, etc. a few times during the performance. Then he wheels on you and says "get back in the incinerator oven you kike!" then points at you and calls you a "yid" over and over. Or suppose he says "fuck you, greasy dago guinea piece of shit, go back home and make me a pizza you spaghetti nigger". Wouldn't that strike you as just a little bit out of line? What if you were someone else in the audience who was jewish or italian-american? Those comments cut a lot harder and with a wider stroke than, for example, George Carlin's hilarious crushing of an annoying heckler (posted earlier).

Hey, we're saying the same thing here. If you're going to crush a heckler, you gotta be funny. However, in pursuit of this, you should be able to say whatever you want - you're on stage, you're there to be funny, nothing should be off limits. Michael Richards failed, not for using the word nigger or talking about racial stereotypes, he failed because he wasn't funny.

Comedians say racist/sexist/religion-specific derogatory comments all the time. If it's funny, guess what? IT'S OK.

He just failed because he wasn't funny. Another thing you'll learn if you go to comedy clubs alot, is that many if not most comedians aren't funny on a day-to-day basis. This headline should've said "Michael Richards is Not Funny When Dealing With Hecklers. He's Just Kind of a Spaz."

I see your point, and I agree for the most part, but I still think that Kramer's comments weren't made as part of his act, and that makes them not comic jokes but slurs. He gives no indication that he's trying to be funny, like Carlin does with his deadpan voice even while being really blue, or like Kinnison does with his "ah-ah-aaaaaaaAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!" scream.

If he really felt that what he was saying was part of his act, he should have gotten a few comedians (black comedians if possible) to stand with him and he should have defended himself accordingly. However, given the nature of his apology and the way he admitted giving in to anger, I think that's only more evidence that he was out of control at the time, and not just unfunny but acting inappropriately.

[Eaglestrike]

That was quite possibly the most well informed post in this thread, ill go read that book.

Thanks. One of my beefs with contemporary education is that they act like the way to deal with racial issues is to say "well, things used to be bad, but we passed the CRA and it fixed everything! yeah!" and then they have black history month where they read Maya Angelou and talk about Frederick Douglass and call it a day.

We need to discuss racial, social, ethnic and economic issues in high school, you can't just relegate important information that everyone should know to college electives, unless you want to make college free. Everyone should be exposed to this debate so that they can be informed and aware that it exists. IMO, being an informed and aware member of society is more important than anything else you learn in school (names of past presidents, calculus, chemistry, etc.)

I don't think things were better with the CRA. In fact, I don't think racial issues started to truly become a 'thing of the past' until this current generation. Blacks are now heavily accepted in celebrity status where they have never been before now.

I'm not rich by any means (I will soon be downgrading my house because my mother cannot afford to pay for the house she's living in, I'm probably moving out) but if I ever do start to work hard and get paid a bunch, I'd like to see some results from it. I want to have the 'best' for my children if I'm shelling out a ton of money for it. I agree with how schools are funded atm, at least in where the money is coming from. But we should channel any and all charity donations towards poor schools.

And IMO, you cannot be an aware and informed member of society unless you actually want to be. Which is the biggest problem I see in our education system. Not only does the teaching style suck ass, but the kids don't give a shit. I pretty much took off most of my senior year and a friend from Church was a biology teacher at my school, I watched her classes often and it was pretty shocking how little people even cared to try, not just the joking everyone does about never doing their work. No system is going to work if someone is unwilling to learn. I don't know where race comes into this, but I'd rather blacks just try in school and surpass the whites than bitch about someone using nigger. PROVE THE RACISTS WRONG. God knows even if we are a bunch of racist bastards inside at least the competition of academic race wars would be refreshing for this nation.

And I never said discussing these issues was bad. I'm complaining about the bitching about the issues, it's constant and it's stupid as hell. I'd love to read some more stats on things, I try to be as logical as possible when thinking about my past situations and how the breakdowns went between races and such, but I know it's not as trustworthy as a real study would show. The problem is that adults suck ass and many wouldn't get real answers from kids, kinda like the FFXI RMT problem. It's obvious as hell to us but the 'superiors' don't get it at all.

I'm too tired to continue making more points, too much leftover turkey, hope this made a little sense >.>

[Kuya]

I absolutly see your point Deme, but i simply have to say this.

Hi mr. powell or mrs. Winfrey.

Hello few of the actual rich and poweful black people in America among the hundreds of richer white people, you would argue its because there are less black people in America, but if thats your argument, then the proprotion is off. No one can argue blacks are less educated.

[Demosthenes11]

I absolutly see your point Deme, but i simply have to say this.

Hi mr. powell or mrs. Winfrey.

Hello few of the actual rich and poweful black people in America among the hundreds of richer white people, you would argue its because there are less black people in America, but if thats your argument, then the proprotion is off. No one can argue blacks are less educated.

Is that number not exponentially changing though? It is more and more and more commen to see minorities enter into college, more common to see upper-class minorities. Why sit here and bitch about it when it is changing in front of us, and nobody really cares.

[Kuya]

I absolutly see your point Deme, but i simply have to say this.

Hi mr. powell or mrs. Winfrey.

Hello few of the actual rich and poweful black people in America among the hundreds of richer white people, you would argue its because there are less black people in America, but if thats your argument, then the proprotion is off. No one can argue blacks are less educated.

Is that number not exponentially changing though? It is more and more and more commen to see minorities enter into college, more common to see upper-class minorities. Why sit here and bitch about it when it is changing in front of us, and nobody really cares.

You are right, it is getting better, althought very very slowly. And people do care, it is extremely important that every sector of society function at its best. The reason why blacks cause more theft crimes and gang wars isn't just because they like to, it has to be some deep seeded psycological issue and to add to that they for some reason find it illogical to study and make a better life for yourself the honest way. That simply isnt logical thinking, obviusly theres something very wrong with black culture.

And the reason we sit here and bitch, I assume, is because I want to learn more about these things, from real people and not just books, so i like these arguments.

[Marquisate]

lol, or you could read a book by a black man that doesn't take no for an answer and puts an end to the racial bullshit used as a safety net by far too many people today (Larry Elder, book titled "The Ten things you can't say in America" delves into today's racial discussion).

And uh, thats a really great story, is that why some of our most successful people in the USA are black? Hi mr. powell or mrs. Winfrey.

You said it yourself, it's a problem with the innercity (poor performance = low funding). hay lewk there are whites in those classrooms today now too. Bill Cosby is tired of the race card, and so is the rest of america

Winfrey and Powell? Ok, that's 2 people out of millions. They're the exception, not the rule, and when you say that they prove the rule you're proving my point!

And no, there aren't large numbers of white students in those classrooms - that's the point. Let's look at Boston's public schools. Nonwhite enrollment was at 76% in 1980. In 1990, it was 86%. In 2000, it was even higher. Why? Because white students were transferring out to private and parochial schools as more black students transferred in. People go to local schools - segregate the communities and you segregate the schools, it's an insidiously brilliant tactic employed to prevent racial integration. How do you do that? The sort of lending policies I mentioned earlier are only one tactic; read "All Deliberate Speed" to learn more. Now, have our communities become more integrated since the 50's and 60's? I dunno, let's look at this graph of Chicago, as an example:
http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/ETI/integration ... 4color.jpg

But hey, at least racial seperation is slowing down, right?
http://urban.nyu.edu/research/integration/figure1.jpg
Why is this the case? Because there are fewer whites left in urban areas to leave them!

I found this stuff in 5 mins on the internet. If I had more time, it'd be much easier to generate relevant statistics, but instead I'll just refer you to "All Deliberate Speed" again, a book I can't even do justice to because it not only takes a piercing look at our failure to integrate, it critically analyzes whether integration is even the most effective method of achieving racial equality, in today's society. It's really amazing, but the author was a key member of the legal team that argued Brown, and was one of the first 13? black students to attend Princeton, so he's a pretty smart guy.

As for Bill Cosby, he can say what he likes - I think he's vague and unhelpful. He comes off exactly as The Boondocks characterizes him - as a rambling old man who makes vague statements about how parents need to be more involved and kids need to not be swayed by the "gangster" subculture without being realistic.

Cosby's biggest issue is crime, so let's take a closer look at him - he was a class president, captain of a sports team, etc., and he had a stable family with two parents. What's the biggest factor in determining whether someone becomes a criminal later in life? Whether they have two at-home parents. Which racial community has the lowest percentage of families with two parents? Blacks. Why? That's the $64,000 question, and you can either cavalierly dismiss the argument that forced seperation of families in the slavery era, forced migration of families in the 50's and 60's to escape Jim Crow, and forced conglomeration into unintegrated inner-city neighborhoods and forced destruction of black communities in cities like NYC to make space for highways connecting the all-white suburbs to city commercial zones (cough cough Cross-Bronx Expressway construction displacing black families and destroying communities while relocating black families to the housing projects cough cough), and the fact that black families are the lowest-earning of any racial group (barely half of what Asians earn on average), may have had a hand in that problem, or you can give it serious consideration.

Doing the latter isn't blaming black problems on white people, it's being realistic and mature and saying that we need to discuss these things publicly and make them a central political issue instead of saying "lol, lrn2workharder." Are there destructive elements damaging the black community in popular culture? Of course. Are these and other problems those that only the black community can address (for the most part), like Cosby says? Yes. But have whites exacerbated and created many of the aggravating circumstances that gave rise to those problems today, and do we thus bear some responsibility for the existing situation? Say no, and you're deluding yourself.

[Anyway]

That was quite possibly the most well informed post in this thread, ill go read that book.

Thanks. One of my beefs with contemporary education is that they act like the way to deal with racial issues is to say "well, things used to be bad, but we passed the CRA and it fixed everything! yeah!" and then they have black history month where they read Maya Angelou and talk about Frederick Douglass and call it a day.

We need to discuss racial, social, ethnic and economic issues in high school, you can't just relegate important information that everyone should know to college electives, unless you want to make college free. Everyone should be exposed to this debate so that they can be informed and aware that it exists. IMO, being an informed and aware member of society is more important than anything else you learn in school (names of past presidents, calculus, chemistry, etc.)

I don't think things were better with the CRA. In fact, I don't think racial issues started to truly become a 'thing of the past' until this current generation. Blacks are now heavily accepted in celebrity status where they have never been before now.

I'm not rich by any means (I will soon be downgrading my house because my mother cannot afford to pay for the house she's living in, I'm probably moving out) but if I ever do start to work hard and get paid a bunch, I'd like to see some results from it. I want to have the 'best' for my children if I'm shelling out a ton of money for it. I agree with how schools are funded atm, at least in where the money is coming from. But we should channel any and all charity donations towards poor schools.

And IMO, you cannot be an aware and informed member of society unless you actually want to be. Which is the biggest problem I see in our education system. Not only does the teaching style suck ass, but the kids don't give a shit. I pretty much took off most of my senior year and a friend from Church was a biology teacher at my school, I watched her classes often and it was pretty shocking how little people even cared to try, not just the joking everyone does about never doing their work. No system is going to work if someone is unwilling to learn. I don't know where race comes into this, but I'd rather blacks just try in school and surpass the whites than bitch about someone using nigger. PROVE THE RACISTS WRONG. God knows even if we are a bunch of racist bastards inside at least the competition of academic race wars would be refreshing for this nation.

And I never said discussing these issues was bad. I'm complaining about the bitching about the issues, it's constant and it's stupid as hell. I'd love to read some more stats on things, I try to be as logical as possible when thinking about my past situations and how the breakdowns went between races and such, but I know it's not as trustworthy as a real study would show. The problem is that adults suck ass and many wouldn't get real answers from kids, kinda like the FFXI RMT problem. It's obvious as hell to us but the 'superiors' don't get it at all.

I'm too tired to continue making more points, too much leftover turkey, hope this made a little sense >.>

Really though... I know the innercity is bad but you can't say they don't get oppurtunities. There's so many programs like the united negro fund specifically for blacks only, all they have to do is do moderately well in school. I'm not saying straight A's either, it's pretty easy to get the scholarship. But they just don't TRY. Cause it's cool to drop out, it's cool to curse off your teacher and it's cool to join gangs. Then they realize it aint cool to be dirt poor, on welfare, and living in a shack, all the while blaming society for their problems, but it's too late.

My favorite hypocracy of all time is black supremacists who go around preaching Malcolm X. When in reality, the man got killed by his black peers for meeting with MLK Jr. and deciding that violence isn't the answer, equality is.

Not to mention the fact that I hear the Black Panther party is back... and anyone else see that motherfucker on CSPAN talking about exterminating the white race? He said it was his solution to the problem(lolhitler?). Yeah they're really taking steps into the right direction...

[Andarvi]

bothers me because some niggers who were disturbing the peace are going to get a cash settlement from being a bunch of morons and doing the wrong thing.

you are an ignorant peace of shit.

I'm thinking you are not one to be making fun of others intelligence.

god forbid i make a typo, as i was walking away from my dorm i realized that i made it strangely enough.

and to nynja, they were called niggers repeatedly first over and over again, their racial slur was in retaliation. not saying it should be used, but you seem to think they threw the first stone. please watch the videos.

[Kuya]

Really though... I know the innercity is bad but you can't say they don't get oppurtunities. There's so many programs like the united negro fund specifically for blacks only, all they have to do is do moderately well in school. I'm not saying straight A's either, it's pretty easy to get the scholarship. But they just don't TRY. Cause it's cool to drop out, it's cool to curse off your teacher and it's cool to join gangs. Then they realize it aint cool to be dirt poor, on welfare, and living in a shack, all the while blaming society for their problems, but it's too late.


If i may, these groups like the united negro fund, are part of the problem, they are exactly what propagates the idealogy in blacks that because they are blacks they can get away with certain things and receive special treatment. And to the latter, why do you think young black people think this way? Theres more to all of this than just meets the eye. Its like those mofos are fucking hipnotized into thinking these things (im not refering to "the white man").

EDIT: GOD THE TOP IS WHAT THAT GUY WITH THE FLAG SEAD, EDITING ISNT WORKING.

[Btight]

Winfrey and Powell? Ok, that's 2 people out of millions. They're the exception, not the rule, and when you say that they prove the rule you're proving my point!

Yeah, he actually went through the entirety of the American population and looked for blacks (will not use African American as per my previous arguement) that have high incomes and social standing and listed all of them.


WAIT! Maybe he was giving a few specific examples? No, thats crazy talk.

[Devek]

You're not discussing a racist problem, you're discussing a poverty problem.

My daughter went to the most expensive daycare in my city age 1-3. One day the state came up with this DHS copay system where any parent could send their child to any state licensed daycare and they state would pay for it on a sliding scale.

If you were totally unemployed the state would pay all of the costs, if you made a certain amount you might only pay $20.. but it was $20 no matter what daycare you went to.

These type of state funded socialism projects encourage one type of behavior from the companies involved.

My daycare started raising their prices through the roof.. If they raised their price to the point a honest working parent couldn't afford it, it was ok because a state funded parent would replace them.

Almost overnight the daycare was filled with undisciplined poor kids.. After my daughter got beat up the second time I yanked her from the place. When they wern't beating her up they were teaching her dirty words and some of the boys even tried to dry hump her..

I found a private montessori school and enrolled her there. I remember when I first talked to the lady I asked her if she accepted DHS co-pay and she gave me a dirty look and said no.. lol. I laughed and asked her where I could sign up.

It cost less than her old day care did, and it was 100x better. Her demeanor changed completely to a more carefree and happy child. She was a leader in her classes there and even had her own "club" that all the other kids wanted to be in.

Urban sprawl isn't a racist issue.. its just parents wanting their kids to get decent education away from the other kids who have parents that don't give a fuck about them.

EDIT: Maybe those kids arn't getting the same opportunities in life that my daughter will.. but the blame lays 100% on their parents. If you aren't prepared to put the effort in to teach your child to not dry hump everything in sight, refrain from having children..