Smoking Bans

[Xavier]

2 drinks eh?
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blhealth01.htm

The same website has an article that contradicts that, and the link you posted is to an article thats over 7 years old.

New England Journal of Medicine has stirred up a long-standing controversy over alcohol's health benefits and spawned a considerable amount of media attention. The report, entitled "Roles of Drinking Pattern and Type of Alcohol Consumed in Coronary Heart Disease in Men," draws the conclusion that consumption of one or two drinks of alcohol at least three to five times per week decreases the risk of myocardial infarction among men. Yet, with increased consumption of alcohol come increased health risks.

More recently they've said that moderate drinking does crease the risk of heart disease, but if you go beyond moderate drinking the drawbacks are quite obvious.

this is an understudied field but non the less still points to using alcohol to cope with the already stressful years of being a teen,
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medi...p?newsid=55049

That'd be great if the only people in the world to consume alcohol were teenagers. Except people of all ages drink, and you're focusing on one specific age group for a negative aspect, whereas smoking will negatively affect you regardless of age.

instead of looking at the little picture try and strive for the big one, sure seperating smokers from non smokers everywhere will stop you personally from getting cancer from 2nd hand cigarette smoke, but i think we should be more concerned with everyone and not just ourselves

Cry me a river.

I can't stop you from smoking, that -would- violate your constitutional rights since smoking isn't illegal. I can however stop you from smoking around me. If you want help to stop smoking there are plenty of support groups.

Seeing as how you're only concerned with being able to keep smoking, its not unrealistic to see why I'm only concerned with stopping you from smoking around me.

[dietvanillapepsi]

Too much in this one post that I gotta break it down.

A) There is a link between elctromagnetic radiation and brain tumors. Microwaves generate a huge amount of electromagnetic radiation. You do the math.

Maybe if you stuck your head in it. Besides, why is this even in the discussion? The whole "if you are gonna ban this then ban that" argument never worked with my momma when my older sister was able to stay up late and I wasn't. You know your argument is weak when you can't argue the pro's independantly.

B) Prove it or lose it? You can say the same for 2nd hand smoke. For evey clinical report that says it causes cancer, there is a clinical report refuting it. That is, if the initial report wasn't retracted already (you would be surprised).

Yeah, I saw the movie "Thank You for Smoking" too. Funny shit.

If you don't want people to smoke in public places..lets be smart about this and actually define these "public" places. Some place a non-smoker can go does not automatically make it "public." Some place a smoker can go does not automatically make it "private."

Public and Private are legally defined terms.

[Xiona]

now i know you arent even reading most if what ive been typing, youre skimming looking for an arguement because you feel you hold the absolute high ground of reason. youre unwilling to look from out of your little circle.

i said a few pages back, "i quit smoking 2 weeks ago". i have no need to blow smoke in your face.

just because a study is 7 years old doesnt negate the findings from it. like i said before i dont want to spend all night forming a concrete hypothesis for a freakin forum post. one in which you wont even entertain the smallest alternatives, instead you spring to your extreme views on everything that affects you.

teenage years is when a large portion of your social development happens, if you introduce a "crutch" such as alcohol into the equation you screw up development down the line. you in a sense retard the actual processes from happening, or slow them down enough to hinder healthy development.

hopefully as you grow older you move away from the"me me me all about me if it affects me and i dont like it its wrong" mindset and more to the "well i dont like this, its not good... i wonder how there can be a way to fix this; one which is reasonable to both sides"

you failing to put yourself into the smokers shoes proves that you dont give a shit about anything more than youre own little space. for all you care they can all die of cancer. which in it self is a very selfish and morally unacceptable way of approaching anything that involves other sentient creatures.

it doesnt matter that noone literally "shoved" a cig in someones mouth, what matters is we have a problem and reverting to classic fundamental attribution error's in thought dont help at all. there is more than one way to push someone to do anything, let alone smoke (to many factors for you to push it aside with the "noone made you"arguement).

[Cleveland]

Too much in this one post that I gotta break it down.

A) There is a link between elctromagnetic radiation and brain tumors. Microwaves generate a huge amount of electromagnetic radiation. You do the math.

Maybe if you stuck your head in it. Besides, why is this even in the discussion? The whole "if you are gonna ban this then ban that" argument never worked with my momma when my older sister was able to stay up late and I wasn't. You know your argument is weak when you can't argue the pro's independantly.

B) Prove it or lose it? You can say the same for 2nd hand smoke. For evey clinical report that says it causes cancer, there is a clinical report refuting it. That is, if the initial report wasn't retracted already (you would be surprised).

Yeah, I saw the movie "Thank You for Smoking" too. Funny shit.

If you don't want people to smoke in public places..lets be smart about this and actually define these "public" places. Some place a non-smoker can go does not automatically make it "public." Some place a smoker can go does not automatically make it "private."

Public and Private are legally defined terms.

Never saw the movie. I was basing my argument about the clinical studies on fact, not Hollywood bullshit.

Public and Private are legally defined...loosely at best. There is no black or white. And currently the states with the bans are inter-changing these terms at will to suit their agenda.

And microwaves are in the argument because the make a nice comparison to to the smoking argument. They do not serve a purpose that something else already doesnt serve (safely), and they can deemd harmful, just like 2nd hand smoke.

The same grounds used to impose the smoking bans can infact be used on microwaves as well. Yet.....you all seem to have a big problem with banning microwaves.

Why is that?

Oh...I get it. You use microwaves, so it is much harder for you to imagine giving them up. You have become accustomed to them, and it would be hard for you to let them go.

See where I am going with this? Easy to say "ban it" when the banning doesn't effect you because you already do not partake of the item to be banned. Not so easy when its something that is a part of your life that is being banned, good or bad, now is it?

[Popeh]

you failing to put yourself into the smokers shoes proves that you dont give a shit about anything more than youre own little space. for all you care they can all die of cancer. which in it self is a very selfish and morally unacceptable way of approaching anything that involves other sentient creatures.

it doesnt matter that noone literally "shoved" a cig in someones mouth, what matters is we have a problem and reverting to classic fundamental attribution error's in thought dont help at all. there is more than one way to push someone to do anything, let alone smoke (to many factors for you to push it aside with the "noone made you"arguement).

You remind me of the type of person that goes around claiming people who steal to fund their drug habbit is ok, they just need a little help. Obviously that's a little extreme - very few people steal to fund smoking, but it sums up the "I can't help that I smoke".

Smoking - Drug Taking - situationally the same beginnings/endings and feeling of people who don't use the substance/product imo.

While you defend smokers and advise we should look at it from their side, you are failing to look at it from a non-smokers view. I'm not talkign about an ex smoker who are naturally more tolerable to smokers, but someone who has never liked it. It's not exactly something you ever get used to.

[Xiona]

er sorry but i see it from the non smoker side. if not having a stronger feeling for not being around it. i dont want to ever smoke again, seeing smelling it reminds me of the habit i had and makes me want one really bad.

what i was saying earlier was instead of just treating smokers like that disabled cousin you never talk about living in the basement, convert that effort to end smoking all together.

as with most people who speak out on something, its only because it affects their little circle. once its out of sight its out of there mind, all the while the problem never went away.

[Correction]

hopefully as you grow older you move away from the"me me me all about me if it affects me and i dont like it its wrong" mindset and more to the "well i dont like this, its not good... i wonder how there can be a way to fix this; one which is reasonable to both sides"

So what you're saying is it's selfish and childish to be for a smoking ban without also devoting your life and volunteering time to help those poor souls currently addicted to nicotine?

What a stupid fucking argument against statewide smoking bans.

[Saga]

So you're saying if you drive a car you can't complain about someone smoking while you're trying to eat?

Yes, clearly. How could we be so blind?

[Xiona]

yea because pushing the root of any problem under the rug is definately a retarded idea. no no its ok, just ban the smoking and dont fix the real problem... just get it out of your face

[Popeh]

Peronsonally I feel I give too much time to ignorant smokers irl.

Some people will go out of their way to make sure smoke doesn;t go in your direction - basic things like this make me thing wow - how considerate.

Some people simply don't care - they'll smoke in a que, in food area's and in the car when their 2 year old kids are in them. - These are the people I won't take time to consider - these are the people why smoking bans came about - these people deserve to live in a basement.

I understand not smoking for a smoker can be hard - but it's common courtesy on how and when you choose to.

And from a non-smokers point of view - if we wanted to give so much time to smokers and inhale their exhaled stench, we would of just taken up the habbit ourselves.
If you choose to take up a habbit, you should deal with what society generally think's of it.

[Enkidu]

OK I will go through great lengths to put this silly microwave thing behind us, here goes:

First let's start with this nice illustration from the guys at hyperphysics -
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...od/radnion.gif

NOW, look at the figure.

What do you see?

Well I'll tell you. Radiation is a broad term, and it doesn't mean "bad stuff that gives joo cancer". Ok now look again at the figure. Look at the red part, we all know red means bad, so yeah this is bad radiation. If you come in contact with this, your skin and DNA can ionize and you could die right quick from cancer/radiation poisoning.

The pink is heat and stuff. You know like when you turn that dial in your house and hot air comes out, ain't that amazing. Well it turns out this kind of radiation doesn't kill you. Amazing I know, who would have thought?

Now the white.. Well white means safe, right guys? What's happening here is that the wave doesn't even have enough energy to electronically excite the atom. I know that is hard to understand so let's break it down. Say you have a dumbbell.. It would be right hard to stretch it out, right? Would take lot's of muscle and stuff. That's what electronically excitation basically is. On the other hand it's very easy to spin the dumbbell around, right? That's what the radiation in the white does! It spins stuff making it hot!! Imagine if you spun a dumbbell around right quick, that would get kinda hot wouldn't it?

So what have we learned? Microwaves are non-ionizing waves of energy almost like the stuff that comes out of the walls when we turn the dial in the living room up, except the microwaves have less energy . Poor microwaves.

(Seriously the microwave/cancer thing is so stupid I can't really believe that you guys buy into it...)

[Scythiroth]

Wow, I actually learned something from this thread. I really didn't know that stuff. >_>

[Xavier]

yea because pushing the root of any problem under the rug is definately a retarded idea. no no its ok, just ban the smoking and dont fix the real problem... just get it out of your face

You're right. Limiting the number of places a person can smoke does nothing to decrease their likelyhood to take up smoking in the first place. My mistake.

what i was saying earlier was instead of just treating smokers like that disabled cousin you never talk about living in the basement, convert that effort to end smoking all together.

And I suppose ending smoking all together can be accomplished without ending all places that you can smoke?

for all you care they can all die of cancer. which in it self is a very selfish and morally unacceptable way of approaching anything that involves other sentient creatures.

Anyone who feels they deserve to smoke in public places doesn't seem concerned if I die of cancer either.

Saying I'm void of morality while you are defending people who are actively endangering the people around them is ridiculous.

[Correction]

yea because pushing the root of any problem under the rug is definately a retarded idea. no no its ok, just ban the smoking and dont fix the real problem... just get it out of your face

Did you completely ignore the fact that California already spends billions in anti-smoking campaigns, prohibits the sales/advertisement of cigarettes within a certain radius of schools AND provides basic services and health care to uninsured victims of emphysema, lung cancer and all the other shit smoking does to you?

Guess where the money from that comes from. Oh yeah, the taxes everybody pays.

BUT LOL YEA I GUESS I DON'T CARE ABOUT PEOPLE SO LET'S NEVER BAN SMOKING UNTIL I BECOME A CANCER SURGEON.

You're so fucking full of shit it's unbelievable.

[Gregorio]

People keep bringing up that smoking is bad for you, has no real positive effects, etc, but ignore the main point of why this smoking ban is bad. The government is violating private property rights. It's just another step for the government to control every aspect of your life that we let them.

It doesn't matter if smoking is bad...if I chose to smoke I make the decision myself, and I don't need to be protected from myself thanks. Now...if I chose to smoke in a bar where the owner has allowed smoking on his own private property, and there are other people around, it's true that I am harming those people. HOWEVER, nobody is being forced to stay in that bar. When you enter the bar you enter it with full knowledge that you may get smoke blown in your face.

Things should not be illegal simply because the government and soccer moms across America decides they are. What's next? Fast food? Masturbation? Sleeping too much? Video games? They all provide just about the same effects that smoking does...they feels good/provide enjoyment to the person who's doing it. How about manditory exercise...that would certainly have benefits. Obesity is a serious medical problem across the country, if we could only force people to get into shape we'd be much better off!

[Xavier]

If theres rats in your resturaunt, the government can shut it down. I just don't follow the argument that an establishment that serves the public, even if its privately owned, is beyond regulation from the government.

[XxSlusherxx]

The smoking ban is good and bad to me. We've had it here in Minneapolis for a little over 2 years? (this will be the third winter) I don't smoke personally, but I have friends that smoke, and it really sucks cause you either have to go stand outside in the cold for no reason whatsoever or chill by yourself at a table for 10 min.
At first I actually kinda missed the smell, because, clean air in a bar was that unnatural to me. But now that I've gotten used to it, it's pretty nice. So I'm torn, I kinda like it, but I woulden't mind if it was repealed.
Lol at the argument that smoking does not cause bad health, fuck proof of cancer, it's obviously not good for your health, beyond that dosen't really matter. Thing is smoking was cool, it used to be posh, it had it's own sort of subculture. smokers bonded by smoking together by bumming cigarettes to strangers, it was all very cool. Anyone who would tell you smoking was not cool was just looking out for your well being, which while honorable, was a lie. But this has passed, sometime around 2003 it became dirty, not posh, and it's only redeeming factor now I guess would be to be 'bad' if thats the image you want.

[Cleveland]

OK I will go through great lengths to put this silly microwave thing behind us, here goes:

First let's start with this nice illustration from the guys at hyperphysics -
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...od/radnion.gif

NOW, look at the figure.

What do you see?

Well I'll tell you. Radiation is a broad term, and it doesn't mean "bad stuff that gives joo cancer". Ok now look again at the figure. Look at the red part, we all know red means bad, so yeah this is bad radiation. If you come in contact with this, your skin and DNA can ionize and you could die right quick from cancer/radiation poisoning.

The pink is heat and stuff. You know like when you turn that dial in your house and hot air comes out, ain't that amazing. Well it turns out this kind of radiation doesn't kill you. Amazing I know, who would have thought?

Now the white.. Well white means safe, right guys? What's happening here is that the wave doesn't even have enough energy to electronically excite the atom. I know that is hard to understand so let's break it down. Say you have a dumbbell.. It would be right hard to stretch it out, right? Would take lot's of muscle and stuff. That's what electronically excitation basically is. On the other hand it's very easy to spin the dumbbell around, right? That's what the radiation in the white does! It spins stuff making it hot!! Imagine if you spun a dumbbell around right quick, that would get kinda hot wouldn't it?

So what have we learned? Microwaves are non-ionizing waves of energy almost like the stuff that comes out of the walls when we turn the dial in the living room up, except the microwaves have less energy . Poor microwaves.

(Seriously the microwave/cancer thing is so stupid I can't really believe that you guys buy into it...)

Thank you for that pointless lesson in physics. Microwaves (the actual waves) which you have so eloquently pointed out, are not harmful persay. Microwaves, the boxes we cook food in, are. Electromagnetic fields are the issue, not the fucking waves. Remeber all those parents of retarded kids who sued the power company because the powerlines near their house were not properly shielded and caused them to be forest gumps?

[Gregorio]

If theres rats in your resturaunt, the government can shut it down. I just don't follow the argument that an establishment that serves the public, even if its privately owned, is beyond regulation from the government.

People don't go into bars expecting to consume rat droppings or contract diseases that rats carry.

How much government regulation would you be happy with? Since we're going along with the whole "if it's bad for you the government must protect us" thing...Fast food is horrible for your body and has more fat in it than you need in a week. Should the government regulate fast food right off the planet since it's bad for you?

[Gafgarionn]

Some people like it for obvious reasons, some people dont like it for the same, same goes with some bar business owners, imgine how much it will hurt their sales when the people they serve cant smoke? Here in Cincy, people are already planning to go over to Kentucky and smoke in the bars there. In stadiums people will be hard pressed to find a place to smoke, the cant smoke inside, and they cant smoke in the near perimeter either, so they better find a new habit.

Hmm, didn't know about people wanting to go to Kentucky. I need to get out more.

I was just talking about the smoking ban with someone at lunch, cause the news mentioned it. My college has apparently always had a ban of smoking within 25 feet of the doorway, but it's never enforced, even after they did a recent push to promote it, and the fact they have signs around the doorways.

For me, I can't stand to be around smokers. It's part of the reason I don't do anything out. I'd rather not deal with smoke, cause it makes it difficult for me to breathe. I supported the ban. I'd also support a banning of cigarettes period.

You don't go outside because of cigarette smoke? That's fucking pathetic. I can understand people not wanting me to smoke around them when they're eating and such, but smelling a little cigarette smoke when I walk by you isn't going to cause any harm. Look at it this way. I smoke anywhere from 5-15 cigarettes a day. At this rate, I'll probably start noticing the real harmful effects by the time I'm 50-60 (especially since medicine is getting better). Second hand smoke in most situations probably equates to the second hander inhaling about a tenth of a cigarette, which doesn't include a lot of the harmful chemicals in the cigarette itself. Like I said, I can understand situations where you don't want to breathe in smoke, but business owners should make the call of whether they want to allow smoking or not, and public bans should be more realistic than they are now. But, the fact that you say you don't go outside because of all the smoke is absolute bullshit.