Dark Magic Potency

[aurik]

Even with as much dark skill++ as you can pile on. No staff, no day, no weather, the most you'll ever see is 120.

So what you're saying is that all dark skill does is determine resists then (save Bio DoT)?

Do you have any evidence/tests/whatever?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that regardless of dark skill's effect on aspir potency, there is a hard cap of 120 base before any condition modifiers are applied (staff, day, weather, MB)

So what do you believe dark skill's effect on aspir/drain is then?

It affects potency and accuracy. That's pretty well established, and not what is in contention.

[Goso]

Even with as much dark skill++ as you can pile on. No staff, no day, no weather, the most you'll ever see is 120.

So what you're saying is that all dark skill does is determine resists then (save Bio DoT)?

Do you have any evidence/tests/whatever?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that regardless of dark skill's effect on aspir potency, there is a hard cap of 120 base before any condition modifiers are applied (staff, day, weather, MB)

So what do you believe dark skill's effect on aspir/drain is then?

It affects potency and accuracy. That's pretty well established, and not what is in contention.

How can you say it effects potency, when no matter if you are wearing (+100 skill, or +0 skill) the cap is still 120. Therefor it will only effect resist rate, not potency.

[Umbra]

Since you believe that Dark skill affects potency, then why are you saying that no neutral (minus staff/weather/etc) Aspir will go over 120 regardless of dark skill? Isn't that contradictory?

I'm not at all going to discount the possibility that I'm missing something obvious here since I'm struggling to stay awake at the moment.

[aurik]

Even with as much dark skill++ as you can pile on. No staff, no day, no weather, the most you'll ever see is 120.

So what you're saying is that all dark skill does is determine resists then (save Bio DoT)?

Do you have any evidence/tests/whatever?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that regardless of dark skill's effect on aspir potency, there is a hard cap of 120 base before any condition modifiers are applied (staff, day, weather, MB)

So what do you believe dark skill's effect on aspir/drain is then?

It affects potency and accuracy. That's pretty well established, and not what is in contention.

How can you say it effects potency, when no matter if you are wearing +100 skill, or 0 skill, the cap is still 120. Therefor it will only effect resist rate, not potency.

Do you not understand the mathematical concept of a cap?

Before the 5tp floor patch, weapon delay affected TP gain, but there was a minimum of 5 TP returned per hit. Any time you would get less than 5 TP, you get 5 TP instead.

This is the exact same thing; dark skill affects aspir potency but there is a maximum of 120 pre-adjustment MP returned per aspir. Any time you would get more than 120 pre-adjustment MP, you would get 120 instead.

Even in a situation where you can hit the cap, it's still possible that dark skill to continues to improve potency by improving the average return of aspir.

[aurik]

Since you believe that Dark skill affects potency, then why are you saying that no neutral (minus staff/weather/etc) Aspir will go over 120? Isn't that contradictory?

I'm not at all going to discount the possibility that I'm missing something obvious here since I'm struggling to stay awake and all.

No, it's not contradictory at all.

[Goso]

[quote=aurik]

Even with as much dark skill++ as you can pile on. No staff, no day, no weather, the most you'll ever see is 120.

So what you're saying is that all dark skill does is determine resists then (save Bio DoT)?

Do you have any evidence/tests/whatever?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that regardless of dark skill's effect on aspir potency, there is a hard cap of 120 base before any condition modifiers are applied (staff, day, weather, MB)

So what do you believe dark skill's effect on aspir/drain is then?

It affects potency and accuracy. That's pretty well established, and not what is in contention.

How can you say it effects potency, when no matter if you are wearing +100 skill, or 0 skill, the cap is still 120. Therefor it will only effect resist rate, not potency.

Do you not understand the mathematical concept of a cap?

Before the 5tp floor patch, weapon delay affected TP gain, but there was a minimum of 5 TP returned per hit. Any time you would get less than 5 TP, you get 5 TP instead.

This is the exact same thing; dark skill affects aspir potency but there is a maximum of 120 pre-adjustment MP returned per aspir. Any time you would get more than 120 pre-adjustment MP, you would get 120 instead.

Even in a situation where you can hit the cap, it's still possible that dark skill to continues to improve potency by improving the average return of aspir.[/quote:19d27]

No, I did not understand this. As I stated before, I'm just a redneck alaskan, that stumbled upon a big # aspir. I am trying to understand why and how. I'm not the typical forum troll trying to prove my points, or press my thoughts onto others, I am trying to find out a large aspect of my FFXI job.

Everytime the question of where did the 120 cap # come from, no one can aswnser the question. Only thing I have caught is "have you ever seen any bigger?" no, course not, why the hell would I ever aspir w/o a staff. I was unable to test last night due to linkshell events and that thing we call sleep.

I ask again, not in a "omg your wrong" manner, but as a sourse of information for myself, how and where was the 120 cap for neutral Aspir deterimed?

[aurik]

[quote=Goso][quote=aurik]

Even with as much dark skill++ as you can pile on. No staff, no day, no weather, the most you'll ever see is 120.

So what you're saying is that all dark skill does is determine resists then (save Bio DoT)?

Do you have any evidence/tests/whatever?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that regardless of dark skill's effect on aspir potency, there is a hard cap of 120 base before any condition modifiers are applied (staff, day, weather, MB)

So what do you believe dark skill's effect on aspir/drain is then?

It affects potency and accuracy. That's pretty well established, and not what is in contention.

How can you say it effects potency, when no matter if you are wearing +100 skill, or 0 skill, the cap is still 120. Therefor it will only effect resist rate, not potency.

Do you not understand the mathematical concept of a cap?

Before the 5tp floor patch, weapon delay affected TP gain, but there was a minimum of 5 TP returned per hit. Any time you would get less than 5 TP, you get 5 TP instead.

This is the exact same thing; dark skill affects aspir potency but there is a maximum of 120 pre-adjustment MP returned per aspir. Any time you would get more than 120 pre-adjustment MP, you would get 120 instead.

Even in a situation where you can hit the cap, it's still possible that dark skill to continues to improve potency by improving the average return of aspir.[/quote:53a5b]

No, I did not understand this. As I stated before, I'm just a redneck alaskan, that stumbled upon a big # aspir. I am trying to understand why and how. I'm not the typical forum troll trying to prove my points, or press my thoughts onto others, I am trying to find out a large aspect of my FFXI job.

Everytime the question of where did the 120 cap # come from, no one can aswnser the question. Only thing I have caught is "have you ever seen any bigger?" no, course not, why the hell would I ever aspir w/o a staff. I was unable to test last night due to linkshell events and that thing we call sleep.

I ask again, not in a "omg your wrong" manner, but as a sourse of information for myself, how and where was the 120 cap for neutral Aspir deterimed?[/quote:53a5b]

It's empirically derived. For a long time, no aspir has gone above 120 neutral, 132 w/ just dark staff (no weather/day), or 138 with pluto's staff (no weather/day). Everyone who keeps these "peak number" screenshots shows the exact same numbers. Therefore we assume there is some limitation in the system that prevents you from getting more than 120mp base.

The most that you will ever see with plutos/day/double weather is 120 * 1.15 * 1.35 = 186. So once again the "120mp maximum base" phenomenon comes into play. This is why a 193 aspir is remarkable: what is the mechanic behind Diabolos's Pole that allows you to break this cap? Is it possible that aspir/drain in double-dark with Diabolos could outperform Pluto's?

[draxyl]

Hm, for those wondering why if you pile on tons and tons of dark skill, the potency caps at 120.

There are many hard "caps" for this game that the programmers have put in. Look at Accuracy and Evasion as examples. No matter how much lolrukenshin accuracy you pile on, you'll never rise above a 95% average.

This is basically the same story. As aurik stated, by piling on the dark skill gear you are simply going to increase your *average* aspir to a higher #, with the highest # possible set at 120 before bonus' are applied.

[Khamsin]

Even in a situation where you can hit the cap, it's still possible that dark skill to continues to improve potency by improving the average return of aspir.

Wouldn't that be due to a lessened resist rate, rather than an increased potency?

[Umbra]

Even in a situation where you can hit the cap, it's still possible that dark skill to continues to improve potency by improving the average return of aspir.

So through the accuracy that additional dark skill gives you, you're less likely to resist, thus gaining a higher average return on aspir? Are you conflating accuracy and potency when you say that dark skill affects them both?

Either that or I'm just not following. My hangover might be worse than I thought.

[aurik]

Even in a situation where you can hit the cap, it's still possible that dark skill to continues to improve potency by improving the average return of aspir.

So through the accuracy that additional dark skill gives you, you're less likely to resist, thus gaining a higher average return on aspir? Are you conflating accuracy and potency when you say that dark skill affects them both?

Either that or I'm just not following. My hangover might be worse than I thought.

No, not talking about resists. You're not following.

I'm going to make up an imaginary "aspir return" function here to demonstrate what I'm talking about.

Let's say with 250 dark skill, your raw aspir return is an even distribution in the interval (90, 140). However, anything above 120 will get truncated to 120.

Therefore you have a 2/5ths chance of getting 120, and 3/5ths chance of getting 90-120. Your overall average is (.4 * 120) + (.6 * (90+120)/2) = 111

With 300 dark skill, your raw aspir return is now an even distribution in the interval (100, 150). Again, anything above 120 will get truncated to 120.

You now have a 3/5ths chance of getting 120, and a 2/5ths chance of getting 100-120. Your overall average is (.6 * 120) + (.4 * (100+120)/2) = 116.

So even with the presence of a hard cap, and without considering resists, additional skill continues to enhance your aspir's potency.

[FFXIFlux]

Anyone know offhand what the cap is on MP Drainkiss? I've gotten some pretty decent numbers off it, but not enough to really be able to tell where the cap is. I'm suspicious it's 120 as well though.

[Goso]

I am not suspusios of the 120 anymore.
I have to agree that I was very sceptical of it to start with. But the arugements and proof that aurik and others have brought up are pretty conclusive. I have heard of the cap on acc+ gear, and eva+ gear capping such as been explained. And would make sence that SE would have programed in the same aspects for magic.

Our shell has dynamis tonight, and I will be screen-shotting aspirs, and compareing data.

The only thing that the argument of 120 base cap is lacking is screenshots, I challange everyone to take a few hours and aspir some low level worms and craps to prove this yourself. I will be doing this and will post screenshots of my results.


Edit: If you don't belive the 120 cap, test it and show us screenies.

[mikazuki]

diabolos's pole
dark weather: x1.19+ multiplier on "drain" and "aspir"

(193/1.35)/120 = 1.191 etc.
i'd be willing to believe it is 1.20 and the number 193 instead of 194 is a result of some ridiculous conversion into fractions of 256.

i look forward to screenshots of numbers over 193 that show the pole gives something crazy like 1.35 multiplier.

black mages, it is your duty to use the pole for empirical testing!

[Suiram]

This actually brings up a very good point I hadn't realized. Aurik's proposal can't be completely right afterall, since a 1.2 bonus skips from 191 or 192 with 119 base damage, to 194 with 120 base damage. However, one alternative is very close, like a 1.1 bonus per instance of weather multiplied seperately (1.21 for double weather), and 119 base aspir on that particular cast. That would give you 193 regardless of whether the pole is calculated in the regular staff slot or after day/weather bonus.

[Jeryhn]

This is why a 193 aspir is remarkable: what is the mechanic behind Diabolos's Pole that allows you to break this cap? Is it possible that aspir/drain in double-dark with Diabolos could outperform Pluto's?

Are we sure the effect on the Diabolos' Pole adds a percentage to Drain and Aspir, rather than a flat number for both spells?

I can think of another item that allows you to exceed a normal cap on a spell you can cast. Stone Gorget for Stoneskin. It adds a flat 30 points of damage absorption to the spell, even beyond the normal 350 cap (possible total of 380 damage absorption).

[Goso]

I wanna bring this back from the dead...

Its one of the only mechanics of the game that really sparked my interest, and the only thing I have ever tested / shrived to get bigger or better.

I took about a year break, and during that time they added the merits to Dark Magic Skill.

My fellow blackmages told me that they have seen/done 200+ aspirs, and 500+ drains (my goal) I not sure if they just razzing me, or if its legit.

Any new information on Drain/Aspir with these new merrits?

[Jkun]

Someone needs to test these out:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Vampiric_Attire_Set

I'm curious as to see what the increase will be, if at all. Since re-reading this thread, I've come to realise maybe M.Acc+ and Dark Skill+ are better than INT+ gear, but these gloves could give BLM and DRK a slight benefit over RDM if the enhancement is good enough.

[Spekkio]

while not huge, my drain/aspir macros staple on my af2+1 hands and af1 pants for dark magic, as well as a pluto's (other slots are mostly haste gear) for +27 dark magic skill, no merits and too lazy to bother w/ dark torque/earring. i find that these tend to increase my accuracy, but don't seem to allow me to make ungodly huge drains happen. my best guess is those super huge drains, if true, were done in dyna, on darksday, using obi, etc, in order to maximize the effect. those seem more "epeen" numbers than consistent numbers. for now, at least, i'm sticking with my ele/enfeebling merits. just my 2 c if it helps any.

[Septimus]

Someone needs to test these out:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Vampiric_Attire_Set

I'm curious as to see what the increase will be, if at all. Since re-reading this thread, I've come to realise maybe M.Acc+ and Dark Skill+ are better than INT+ gear, but these gloves could give BLM and DRK a slight benefit over RDM if the enhancement is good enough.

BLM and DRK already have a 69 dark magic skill advantage over RDM. What more benefit do you need?