Ninja Endgame Katana Question

[Navia]

I like Shiranui+Hototogisu
Heartsnatcher + Garuda Dagger on piercing weak mobs +use evisceration.

[Eaglestrike]

I like Shiranui+Hototogisu
Heartsnatcher + Garuda Dagger on piercing weak mobs +use evisceration.

...

Please just toss those daggers -.-

[Freight]

Senj/Unji only. Senj/Fudo is so0o0o0o0o0o 2005.

[Celeras]

I like Shiranui+Hototogisu
Heartsnatcher + Garuda Dagger on piercing weak mobs +use evisceration.

...

Please just toss those daggers -.-

How is he supposed to do the second floor of SE Apollyon?!

[Ishido]

I like Shiranui+Hototogisu
Heartsnatcher + Garuda Dagger on piercing weak mobs +use evisceration.

...

Please just toss those daggers -.-

For a NIN not wanting to break bank for something like Blau, they do the job. Usually NIN only use daggers for screwing around and 2nd floor SE apollyon, so it's not really a huge deal lol.

Still trying to break latent on my heartsnatcher whenver I get that bored, it seems to suck a lot more than the last 4 trial/latent weapons I've done.

[Navia]

Yeah i could have swore heart snatcher seemed to take longer for its latent to break. Maybe it was all the nin/whm soloing using Energy Drain ws


I've never heard of a NIN using a Blau, maybe if they were a THF main and already had one - that should be so far down their list of 'stuff I should get for my nin'

Please just toss those daggers -.-

Not a fan of easily soloing casters on windsday with a garuda dagger eh?

[aurik]

I partied with a nin using blau/senj in thickets once. It was amusing. They didn't do horribly; they did far better than the other one using senj/kraken on the skoffins, and outparsed all several marginal wars we had during the lifetime of the pt.

[Eaglestrike]

Please just toss those daggers -.-

Not a fan of easily soloing casters on windsday with a garuda dagger eh?

So to make use of this dagger I have to:

A) Be soloing.
B) It has to cast spells (-ga ones otherwise it means nothing)
C) Be windsday.

And if those specifications are met, I can gimp my damage to solo a little easier.

Jambiya/Misericorde maybe? Not free but if you think getting 500 WS points is free then Jambiya might be kinda expensive, not sure.

[LinktheDeme]

i believe that daggers are only good for second floor SE. Also might be good for pts on those giant birds that like resist slashing 50% and piercing does 50% extra dmg (Or is it -25%? i can't remember) anyway some daggers are decent now i suppose if you have gear to back it up like bhaidate swift belt and such.

ninja edit: Also for the katana question from my parsing results Senj/Fudo did the most dmg. Did it over a course of 50 battles for Senj/ Unji and U/U. And in the same party. Wasn't real too much of a difference though only like 50-100 dmg average per battle if i remember correctly. If you try to parse different weapon combos in different pts youll get different results because everyone has a different damage output which would effect yours.

[Michaera]

Bumping up this thread a little bit with a parse from last night's merit party. We were in Mamook at Darting Kawhatever's camp, 2 NIN, 1 WAR, 1 MNK/NIN, RDM and BRD:

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/1...tledwr3.th.png

Mich: 75NIN/WAR, 0 katana merits, capped crit hit, Senji/Fudo
Gizmo: 75NIN/WAR, 2 katana merits, capped crits, Unji/Unsho
Tear: MNK
Nicko: 74WAR/NIN

I was kind of pulling half the party, but the damage was fairly close in some respects, but as far as pure melee damage goes, excluding ws, Gizmo blew me out of the water. I've been trying to figure out why, since I have the two highest DPS katanas you can get outside relic stuff, right? Unji/Unsho are nice and low in delay, but low damage as well, such that dmg/delay is lower than Senji or Fudo. So if that were really the case, I should have been able to figure out how many hits (roughly) each of us made, and then multiply it by the average damage on our weapons, and I should have done more damage. But that's not the case..

Gizmo: 281 crits / 13.02% crit rate * 31.5 avg dmg = ~68k damage
Mich: 318 crits / 17.83% crit rate * 38.5 avg dmg = ~69k damage

So I say to myself "wtflame." And the conclusion I can get from that is that dmg/delay really isn't as important as I would like it to be, for if it really factored directly into damage as I would like to think it did, I would've won in melee damage for sure. So this new data supports lower delay, lower damage weapons, but then you have to wonder: how low? Like someone mentioned, the Hayabusa or Hayabusa +1 might be a wonderful weapon, epsecially in the offhand, for something like this, and I wish i could get my paws on one to find out. :/

One point that might seem kind of placebo--you could argue that having lower delay would mean more opportunities to double attack, and with brutal and WAR sub it happens fairly often, but that should have been accounted for in these calculations as well, right? Originally I had told myself "well, he just outdamages us all the time because he swings more and double attacks more often," but I guess it really is just a matter of his damage and delay.

/idk

[Heian]

The delay is not as important as people would like to think, its just how you gear around which katanas you prefer.

I used Senji/Fudo and I had less gear/merits and still came with in 1~3% of people using Senji/U and U/U. With one being slightly better geared and 3% being pimped.

[Tdizzle]

I don't personally get U/U, you're ganking your mainhand base damage and crit rate (which is huge in Jin) for a small increase in attack speed. You lose a tiny bit of everything in exchange for offhand speed, but a lot of everything in exchange for mainhand speed. So I took the offhand speed.

Eh, it ends up being a small difference both ways. Using U/U my average damage per hit only falls by like 3 points, and WS average really isn't much different. My WS average usually hovers between 600-750 depending on the buffs/mobs.

Really good wars and mnks should avg near 1k ws at the north camp and pop off near 100 a swing on avg. Ive seen 1.8k rampages on skoffins without mighty strikes. Even as lolthf I avg 50 dmg a hit with my daggers subbing nin with 1.2k avg ws on stuff that doesnt fly. 50 dmg a swing for anyone not using 30 dmg weapons is gimp IMO.

[RKenshin]

I know? lol... But that has nothing to do with what I said? My point didn't have anything to do with WARs or MNKs.

And, I also have to disagree in the fact that no, good WARs and MNKs don't average 1k. Only the best do, and it's rare for even them to average that. An average WAR or MNK will have a WS average around 500-700, and a good WAR or MNK will have a WS average around 700 to 900. Then, the best will have an average around 800-1050.

Everyone has seen a fluke Rampage without MS that does crazy damage, I don't get what that has to do with it?... It's no big surprise, every hit of Rampage has a chance to critical. On a very rare occasion, you'll critical almost every hit and even DA once or twice, for 1500-2000 damage out of the blue. MS just makes it a 100% chance, just like Warrior's Charge makes it a 100% chance to DA.

And, NIN's don't average that high ever... Even with Kikoku WS damage peaks in the 600-800 range. NIN WS damage capabilities aren't comparable to WARs and MNKs in the least.

[Stilgar]

Bumping up this thread a little bit with a parse from last night's merit party. We were in Mamook at Darting Kawhatever's camp, 2 NIN, 1 WAR, 1 MNK/NIN, RDM and BRD:

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/1...tledwr3.th.png

Mich: 75NIN/WAR, 0 katana merits, capped crit hit, Senji/Fudo
Gizmo: 75NIN/WAR, 2 katana merits, capped crits, Unji/Unsho
Tear: MNK
Nicko: 74WAR/NIN

I was kind of pulling half the party, but the damage was fairly close in some respects, but as far as pure melee damage goes, excluding ws, Gizmo blew me out of the water. I've been trying to figure out why, since I have the two highest DPS katanas you can get outside relic stuff, right? Unji/Unsho are nice and low in delay, but low damage as well, such that dmg/delay is lower than Senji or Fudo. So if that were really the case, I should have been able to figure out how many hits (roughly) each of us made, and then multiply it by the average damage on our weapons, and I should have done more damage. But that's not the case..

Gizmo: 281 crits / 13.02% crit rate * 31.5 avg dmg = ~68k damage
Mich: 318 crits / 17.83% crit rate * 38.5 avg dmg = ~69k damage

So I say to myself "wtflame." And the conclusion I can get from that is that dmg/delay really isn't as important as I would like it to be, for if it really factored directly into damage as I would like to think it did, I would've won in melee damage for sure. So this new data supports lower delay, lower damage weapons, but then you have to wonder: how low? Like someone mentioned, the Hayabusa or Hayabusa +1 might be a wonderful weapon, epsecially in the offhand, for something like this, and I wish i could get my paws on one to find out. :/

One point that might seem kind of placebo--you could argue that having lower delay would mean more opportunities to double attack, and with brutal and WAR sub it happens fairly often, but that should have been accounted for in these calculations as well, right? Originally I had told myself "well, he just outdamages us all the time because he swings more and double attacks more often," but I guess it really is just a matter of his damage and delay.

/idk

Taking a cursory look at the information here, let me venture to say that it's possible that Unji/Unsho is the better combination of katanas, and had you been using them rather than Senjuinrikio/Fudo, you might have better kept pace with Gizmosan. Yes, yes, I know it sounds utterly outlandish, given the base delay of Unji/Unsho, but stranger things have happened. Take for instance the oft-occurring phenomena of warriors who use single handed axes doing remarkably near the amount of damage per swing of warriors who use great axes. I say, my dear fellow, this is all food for thought. Would you like a pot of tea and a crumpet?

[Stellar]

DPS calculations don't really mean that much.. There's alot more that factors in, creating a much smaller difference in actual delt damage from each katana than the base damage listed. Base damage helps, but a base damage 40 weapon vs. a base damage 30 weapon will not necessarily (not even likely) do 25% more damage per swing.

Someone earlier in the thread asked about hayabusa and kitsusuki.. I use a Hayabusa NQ sometimes and feel the damage is pretty close to the Unji, but I don't thinkn the lower delay makes up for having an offhand Katana with stats assisting the main hand as well (especially on WS). If Unji had no stat bonus's than I would use Hayabusa offhand full time. I don't have Kitsusuki so can't comment on it... And I mainhand solely Kikoku..

[neophytal]

Jin is 4 hit, Senj would be 3 of the hits, Fudo would be 1.

Delivers a threefold attack. Chance of critical hit varies with TP.

orly?

Oh wow, lol. While dualwielding you get an extra hit for your offhand.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93...el/parse-1.jpg

Neophytal = BB MNK, fully meritted.

Hailie = Ridill War, not sure on merits, and no adaman hauberk.

I'll stick with my Senj/Unji =) Even if the damage difference is minimal, swinging fast is fun (I'd get an unsho but I have more important things to worry about)

if im remembering right, i was trying a few different foods/equips that parse, because, i dont have that same parse you do with those numbers. (half was attack/meat food with acc gear, other was acc food with attk gear).

no offense really, but i havent been beat by a nin outside of kisada (kiroku and only pt'd with him on the harder acc / mammool camps) and oldmattimer... both of which are/were crazy nin's.

but if you want real hard numbers, merit with me this week and post it here.

[Tordall]

Full disclosure: I used to argue heavily in favor of S/F.

That said, I seriously think that there's a strong dependance on the rest of your gear, and what you have merited.

When I got ninja to 75, I tested a bunch of stuff pretty extensively and found that I got the best results with S/F (over U/U, and S/U). Now that I'm at 8 katana merits and 3 strength merits, I'm starting to get better results with S/U than I do with S/F. However, all of the katana combs give really close results, you'll probably see a much bigger difference from your choice of hand-armor than you will what katanas you pick.

[Btight]

Full disclosure: I used to argue heavily in favor of S/F.

That said, I seriously think that there's a strong dependance on the rest of your gear, and what you have merited.

When I got ninja to 75, I tested a bunch of stuff pretty extensively and found that I got the best results with S/F (over U/U, and S/U). Now that I'm at 8 katana merits and 3 strength merits, I'm starting to get better results with S/U than I do with S/F. However, all of the katana combs give really close results, you'll probably see a much bigger difference from your choice of hand-armor than you will what katanas you pick.

Speaking of which, I'm hume. For WS swap (no AF1+1 hands yet) I was doing RSE1 hands for a while (3 dex 3 str) but recently I've been using my Bando Kote instead and I think I've been seeing higher, more consistent numbers with that. Havent been parsing it with only that variable though, so no hard numbers. Any validity to it?

[Tordall]

O/B kotes & Ninja Tekko+1 parse really similiary as well. That's another one where it's gonna be dependant on the rest of your gear and what you're eating.

I don't have them so I can't test myself, but I believe that Koga Tekko (at night) parse better than either O/B kotes or ninja tekko+1.

O/B Kotes = more consistancy

Ninja Tekko+1 = higher caps.

I'm using Ninja Tekko+1 over Okotes. I still have my Okotes in my mog locker though.

[Ehran]

I don't have them so I can't test myself, but I believe that Koga Tekko (at night) parse better than either O/B kotes or ninja tekko+1.

For purposes of DoT, Koga Tekko at night are pretty hard to beat. I think this is more due to the +haste than the +STR though, as I don't notice a huge difference in my damage per hit. I still macro in AF+1 hands for weapon skills however, for the better balance of STR/DEX.