Ninja Endgame Katana Question

[Michaera]

So, playing around with this Kitsutsuki s'more... It's really really fast, but I think its dmg is just so low that I'm really losing out in dot. :/ I've had some serious gimps in my pts lately, that I haven't whooped in DoT like I usually do with senji/fudo, though I haven't had the chance to test it again my normal NIN buddy. Though I've been doing most of the tanking, so.... I dunno. I'm still holding out for a good merit party to use it in, but... would rather a Haya+1.

Gonna try and get my hands on an Unji one day and see how Unji/Kitsu and Senji/Unji do for me.

Edit: did get a good party after that gimpy one:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/397/untitledfk3.png
Mich: NIN, 2 STR merits, capped crit.. 0 katana, Senji/Kitsu
Phil: NIN, 0 STR, crit, no haidate, 0 katana, Senji/Fudo
Sono: JUGGY/RIDILL rawr, lots of merits and crazy stuff.
Nick: Maneater/Joy, random WAR stuffs.

Definitely gonna try Unji/Kitsu, then Senji/Unji and see how I like em. I don't know why I keep posting this though since the moral appears to be "Do what feels good to you." Also, does anyone notice a high crit rate like this on trolls? And it's worth noting that Senji/Kitsu did as many WSes as Juggy/Ridill, and we were both paying attention the whole time.

[Ehran]

You got those numbers with this setup you listed before, right?

Correct.

I can see from your results that AF+1 is apparently better with this setup. What race are you? I don't see how adding 6 str and 6 dex could be better than just adding 11 str unless your total str is far less than your total dex.

I'm elvaan, so my DEX (67) is well below my base STR (80 with merits). I merit with a Mithra NIN most times, and she uses B. Kotes over AF+1 hands, and that gets better resutls for her. The only way it makes sense to me is:

STR value is high enough to cap the FSTR cap of katana (which is lower than most weapon due to its low damage rating)

I haven't extensively tested Unsho vs. Unji yet, with the slight difference in STR/DEX mods, but I've been very pleased with both. I play around with U/U a lot, for the fun aspect of it. It's downright sexy to get some hundred-blades action going.

[Zilong]

You got those numbers with this setup you listed before, right?

Correct.

I can see from your results that AF+1 is apparently better with this setup. What race are you? I don't see how adding 6 str and 6 dex could be better than just adding 11 str unless your total str is far less than your total dex.

I'm elvaan, so my DEX (67) is well below my base STR (80 with merits). I merit with a Mithra NIN most times, and she uses B. Kotes over AF+1 hands, and that gets better resutls for her. The only way it makes sense to me is:

STR value is high enough to cap the FSTR cap of katana (which is lower than most weapon due to its low damage rating)

I haven't extensively tested Unsho vs. Unji yet, with the slight difference in STR/DEX mods, but I've been very pleased with both. I play around with U/U a lot, for the fun aspect of it. It's downright sexy to get some hundred-blades action going.

To me, any katana combo with decent haste gear, haste spell, and dual march become hundred blades regardless anyway.

Wanted to get me a karasuageha/hayabusa pair going though, 2 black and white kunai would be e-peen just for the look factor

[Btight]

Yo Mich which parser you use? Looks clean and easy to show data to others..

[Dibond]

the crit hit bonus on s/f and base dmg alone makes jin's better, I've seen same nin with uber gear use jins on both weapon sets, consistently do higher jin's with s/f.

Goddamn, that is some rock-solid, water-tight evidence right there.

CASE CLOSED EVERYONE, MOVE ALONG NOW, NOTHING TO SEE HERE

He's right, you're both idiots.

Nobody is disputing that S/F will give better WS damage, thats a given. But the damage over time is better with S/U, and thats why its the better combination.

I don't see how a small % increase in crit on off hand is supposed to give higher jin average than 6 points in dex/str. Especially considering how much more likely a double attack is on main hand then on off hand. (3 main hand attacks with equal probability to da versus one off hand means that more than 80% of jin damage is from main weapon hand statistically speaking.)

Also I don't see how lower dps weapons would increase average melee damage per round. Just because they attack faster doesn't mean it gives more damage per round than a weapon with much higher base damage.

So I'll stick to my guns saying that off hand U is good to boost jin damage and that UU or SU is for increased number of ws rather than increased melee damage.

[Credos]

the crit hit bonus on s/f and base dmg alone makes jin's better, I've seen same nin with uber gear use jins on both weapon sets, consistently do higher jin's with s/f.

Goddamn, that is some rock-solid, water-tight evidence right there.

CASE CLOSED EVERYONE, MOVE ALONG NOW, NOTHING TO SEE HERE

He's right, you're both idiots.

Nobody is disputing that S/F will give better WS damage, thats a given. But the damage over time is better with S/U, and thats why its the better combination.

I don't see how a small % increase in crit on off hand is supposed to give higher jin average than 6 points in dex/str. Especially considering how much more likely a double attack is on main hand then on off hand. (3 main hand attacks with equal probability to da versus one off hand means that more than 80% of jin damage is from main weapon hand statistically speaking.)

Also I don't see how lower dps weapons would increase average melee damage per round. Just because they attack faster doesn't mean it gives more damage per round than a weapon with much higher base damage.

So I'll stick to my guns saying that off hand U is good to boost jin damage and that UU or SU is for increased number of ws rather than increased melee damage.

Critical %+ on offhand doesn't apply to Jin.

[Swatt]

the crit hit bonus on s/f and base dmg alone makes jin's better, I've seen same nin with uber gear use jins on both weapon sets, consistently do higher jin's with s/f.

Goddamn, that is some rock-solid, water-tight evidence right there.

CASE CLOSED EVERYONE, MOVE ALONG NOW, NOTHING TO SEE HERE

He's right, you're both idiots.

Nobody is disputing that S/F will give better WS damage, thats a given. But the damage over time is better with S/U, and thats why its the better combination.

I don't see how a small % increase in crit on off hand is supposed to give higher jin average than 6 points in dex/str. Especially considering how much more likely a double attack is on main hand then on off hand. (3 main hand attacks with equal probability to da versus one off hand means that more than 80% of jin damage is from main weapon hand statistically speaking.)

Also I don't see how lower dps weapons would increase average melee damage per round. Just because they attack faster doesn't mean it gives more damage per round than a weapon with much higher base damage.

So I'll stick to my guns saying that off hand U is good to boost jin damage and that UU or SU is for increased number of ws rather than increased melee damage.

Critical %+ on offhand doesn't apply to Jin.

does on 1 of the 4 hits.

[Dibond]

My point was that the average number of hits on jin is 3 main with 15% (/war + brutal) chance to da on (these are mutually exclusive since the patch to limit da on main hand ws hits to 1 occurance) and as such a 45% chance to da on main, one off with 15% chance to da on that (this is an event independent of da results from the main hand).

Chance for DA on both off and main (.45) * (.15) = 0.0675
Chance to DA one main hand only (.45) * (1-.15) = 0.3825
Chance to DA Off hand only (1-.45) * (.15) = .0825
Chance for no DA (1-.45) * (1-.15) = 0.4675

Those probabilities total to 1 so it covers the whole spectrum. As you can see for 46.75% of the time jin has 75% of its damage originating from the main hand and for 38.25% of the time 80% of the damage is main hand generated. I may have over estimated this impact in my last post, but its clear at the very least more than 3/4s of the overall jin damage here is generated by the main hand. The point would be that the remaining less than 1/4 of the damage having a small increased chance for crit would not be out weighed by the the more than 3/4s getting a 6 point associated stat boost from either of the Us in the off hand slot.

Plus its pretty clear from a dps perspective that S and F are more dot than UU or SU given their base damage and delays.

S/U is for higher jins, more rapid ws and UU is for very rapid low powered ws. S/F is for crits and increased dot on melee.

The fact that these are all incredibly different forms of damage means that comparing them generically is gonna be tough, so as I originally said some post back, why even bother.

[Michaera]

Yo Mich which parser you use? Looks clean and easy to show data to others..

http://www.lildevilproductions.net/news.php, though you have to sign up for the site to download it off them. It's clean as far as I know, originated from Windower forums and got moved to their own site. It's a lot nicer than Spyle's old one, and you don't have to export to get that nice summary. :3