Enhances "third eye" on saotome haidate

[Kaylia]

Anyone has any ideas what happens when you use them with Seigan? Are they only useful on the normal 3rd eye, or the effect is added to seigan counter?


I'm about to do some testing while waiting for a party. Don't want to waste my time if it was done already. >_>



[Edit]

Counter isnt even 100% on normal 3rd eyes? I always thought it was.

[Gnu]

when you use seigan before using 3rd eye, it can anticipate multiple attacks or counter the attack back to the enemy just like a mnk

[Spieler]

Think by 'enchances third eye', Kaylia is talking about items such as Saotome Haidate. When dynamis first came out, 3rd Eye + Saotome Haidate was a 100% counter attack, then SE changed to to where it wasn't 100% anymore. I haven't tested S. Haidate since Seigan was put into the game.

[Scythiroth]

[Edit]

Counter isnt even 100% on normal 3rd eyes? I always thought it was.

I thought the counter effect was only with the SAM AF2 piece that you can counter with Third Eye?

edit: I was beat and not thinking straight.

[RKenshin]

I'm not 100% sure of the question you're asking, but based on what I've read most SAM's claim to notice no difference at all between Third Eye with and without AF2 legs. It's the only SAM AF2 I don't have, so I can't really speak to any personal experience.

But, I'm pretty sure about how Seigan works overall in enhancing Third Eye. Once you use Third Eye with Seigan up it's like a clock that counts down that effects your chances to anticipate/counter. Initially your chance to anticipate/counter is very high for the first few seconds, and as time goes down that chance gets lower.

It perfectly explains all those screen shots you see (happened to me a few times as well) where a person will anticipate like 10 to 20 times. In each of those screens, it's always "xxx uses Third Eye" followed by several mobs attacking xxx at once and/or a MNK using Hundred Fists, etc, all situations where they're being attacked a lot in a short time.

The same results have been true for all the 'tanking' I've been doing on SAM lately (mostly in exp) where I notice a much larger chance to anticipate/counter when initially use Third Eye in comparison to after 10-25 seconds.

[Kaylia]

when you use seigan before using 3rd eye, it can anticipate multiple attacks or counter the attack back to the enemy just like a mnk

Like the next poster said, I'm talking about Saotome pants that give 3rd eyes enhancement. I didnt realize I would create confusion by not mentioning them.

Think by 'enchances third eye', Kaylia is talking about items such as Saotome Haidate. When dynamis first came out, 3rd Eye + Saotome Haidate was a 100% counter attack, then SE changed to to where it wasn't 100% anymore. I haven't tested S. Haidate since Seigan was put into the game.

It's definitively not 100% on normal 3rd eye without Seigan, ( I was 0/4 when I gave up)


I'm fighting collibri and spider atm to figure what's the proc rate
So far:
counter/(counter+anticipate)
21/64 counter with 3rd eye enhancement
0/0 without it (havent started checking)

I'm aiming for a 300 counters/anticipates sample for both. Hope it will be enough to notice a difference cause it's boring as hell. My guess is that it add w/e "counter%" you get on normal 3rd eyes to seigan counter rate.

[Spieler]

Yea its no longer 100% with S.Haidate. Used to be when dynamis first came out tho (long before seigan). I don't use that af2 piece anymore, but I usually counter 1-2 times a fight on T mobs and less. Vt and higher the proc rate for counter seems less. Nothing conclusive, but I'd be willing to bet you can only counter with seigan up. W/o you can just anticipate 1 attack.

Look forward to seeing your results though.

[Demitrius]

Probably still lets you counter with Hasso up, but I've heard it does nilch for Seigan. I have them, but my SAM is only 65, so I can't tell you for sure, lol.

[Kaylia]

Yea its no longer 100% with S.Haidate. Used to be when dynamis first came out tho (long before seigan). I don't use that af2 piece anymore, but I usually counter 1-2 times a fight on T mobs and less. Vt and higher the proc rate for counter seems less. Nothing conclusive, but I'd be willing to bet you can only counter with seigan up. W/o you can just anticipate 1 attack.

Look forward to seeing your results though.

Didn't have time to finish today. 3rd eyes proc'd about 200 times. Gonna continue tomorrow. I should have tried on easier monsters, spending too much time resting


Counter rate for me always seemed like a static 25-35%. I dont see it proc much more on VT-IT than EP. If you anticipated the attack, there is probably like 30% chance it become a counter.

[TB]

I'd say its still like before, but once you use Seigan the enhancement of the AF2 legs will become void.

[Kaylia]

I'd say its still like before, but once you use Seigan the enhancement of the AF2 legs will become void.

Yes, it's also possible. It's basically why I asked this questions because if it's the case, they would be useless. If it add a 25% counter rate (base counter rate with AF pant equiped), I think I would macro them when 3rd eyes is up. If the effect is nulled, my mannequin will be more than happy to have another AF2 to play with.

[TB]

Hey I still use my Haidate for my half-assed SAM evasion setup. Gogo +3 AGI and HP+! >.>

[Kaylia]

Hey I still use my Haidate for my half-assed SAM evasion setup. Gogo +3 AGI and HP+! >.>

Pant slot doesn't really have anything good for tanking/soloing. I'm probably going to to stick with byakko pant all the time.



Off topic, I'm starting to wonder if I should merit 3rd eyes + meditate, or tp store+meditate. I just can't see many situations where I would really want that 10%tp badly considering I wont merit with this job

[Spieler]

Off topic, I'm starting to wonder if I should merit 3rd eyes + meditate, or tp store+meditate. I just can't see many situations where I would really want that 10%tp badly considering I wont merit with this job

I personally merited Store TP and Mediate fully. 3rd Eye was good to merit when it was on a 1 min timer. Now with Seigan I'm not sure how those merits would work. As long as you max meditate out then it's a personal choice for the rest.

[Kaylia]

I'm 99% certain it would give a 25sec recast. While it doesnt seem a lot, it's still 1-2 hits you can avoid per recast. Those hit add up quickly when you are soloing or tanking something in unconventional party (for assault and stuff like that).



10% store tp is probably converted in 3-4%dmg increase when you melee/spam WS, but against most HNM where you will use Sam, you build tp on add, and usually have enough time to hit 200-300tp .

[RKenshin]

I really have to support Store TP + Meditate as merits no matter what the situation. Maintaining a 6 hit setup is really a big part of your performance in nearly any situation, and unless you're going to be throwing money into HQ Hachiman gear there's no really efficient way to keep that setup without Store TP merits. Otherwise you'll have to sacrifice haste/acc/attack gear for Store TP in many slots, weakening you by a good amount.

In addition, as someone that tanks a lot on SAM now, I really don't think it's worth it. Stuff like that is only worth it if you're using the ability absolutely non-stop, and in nearly all situations you won't be. Mobs die fast, and there's time in between mobs, and of course there's other people in the PT that will have hate at times. In all that time your recast timer on Third Eye will be ticking regardless, and those extra seconds won't even be needed. Many THF argue the same for the utility of meritting SA/TA, because you simply won't be using SA/TA on the dime every 55 seconds to really make it useful.

[Kaylia]

I really have to support Store TP + Meditate as merits no matter what the situation. Maintaining a 6 hit setup is really a big part of your performance in nearly any situation, and unless you're going to be throwing money into HQ Hachiman gear there's no really efficient way to keep that setup without Store TP merits. Otherwise you'll have to sacrifice haste/acc/attack gear for Store TP in many slots, weakening you by a good amount.

In addition, as someone that tanks a lot on SAM now, I really don't think it's worth it. Stuff like that is only worth it if you're using the ability absolutely non-stop, and in nearly all situations you won't be. Mobs die fast, and there's time in between mobs, and of course there's other people in the PT that will have hate at times. In all that time your recast timer on Third Eye will be ticking regardless, and those extra seconds won't even be needed. Many THF argue the same for the utility of meritting SA/TA, because you simply won't be using SA/TA on the dime every 55 seconds to really make it useful.

Like I said, Sam isn't a job I will use in xp PT (I've my ridill on war, and my blm when I want to xp solo). I'm sure a 6 hits setup help my dmg in party, but it won't happen. The only place where I would use Sam is for stuff like JoL, wyrm, cerberus, and a few random thing with my ls. None of those would really be affected by an increase of 7-8%tp gain as far as I can understand.

[RKenshin]

I didn't say anything about just exp, as I said in my first sentence I was talking about just about all the situations you would use SAM in general, including anything from exp to dynamis to limbus to HNMs, etc. I just used an example in exp to illustrate a point.

If anything though, Third Eye recast is the useless thing to merit if you're going to be using it just for HNMs, it's mostly just an exp thing. As a SAM you shouldn't really be pulling hate between alternating SA and TA, and regardless you wouldn't be tanking for extended periods of time so the lowered recast would be just about 100% useless. If you really do end up tanking then there's something wrong, and the 5 seconds wouldn't save you anyway.

On the other hand, in most situations you're not going to be building TP strictly through Meditate (you're kind of useless as a DD at most events if you can only WS/SC every 2.5-3 minutes), so the extra Store TP would always help in building TP faster.