PLD Update Effects

[Awoir]

NIN/BRD generates the most hate from Raptor Mazurka spam, right? Any other songs that produce substantial hate?

Probably Chocobo Mazurka too

can't get chocobo from sub. Elegy gets a small amount of hate also.

[Blackice]

Graphics for those that are visual people and still not understanding the basics of enmity...

http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/5...vstime2pr3.jpg

You don't get hit, you don't lose as much hate as you would if you did get hit (technically, I think SE introduced an Utsusemi "nerf" around the same time as the RNG "nerf" that causes you to lose a -slight- bit of enmity when you lose a shadow.)

edit: I should also add the obvious disclaimer, the tanks need to know how to play their job in order for the graph to be somewhat correct...

The problem with this graphic is, that PLD/NIN actually reachs the hate cap also. I guess something that not everyone is understanding is, there is an actual hate ceiling that all jobs can reach. It's just a matter of how long it takes to reach that point. NIN/BRD, BRD/NIN, and RDM/NIN all reach the cap the fastest followed closely by PLD/NIN, and then NIN/DRK. NIN/WAR can also reach the cap it just takes an extremely longer amount of time to reach it.

[Grey Jorildyn]

NIN/DRK reaches any kind of enmity "cap" faster than PLD/NIN. I speak pre-sent/ramp update from experience. I have yet to give that a whirl in a longer fight yet.

[Mashu]

You are most definitely right, Blackice.. the enmity cap can be reached no matter what job you have; but hate dissipates through many ways (mainly through getting hit and inactivity). I was just trying to illustrate how fast enmity dissipates rather than how fast enmity can be produced.

Guess I drew that too quickly to be accurate

[aers]

It's nice to have a forum where people actually understand the benefits PLD/NIN and NIN/notwar provide <_<

[Blackice]

You are most definitely right, Blackice.. the enmity cap can be reached no matter what job you have; but hate dissipates through many ways (mainly through getting hit and inactivity). I was just trying to illustrate how fast enmity dissipates rather than how fast enmity can be produced.

Guess I drew that too quickly to be accurate

Np, I wasn't trying to insult you with my comments. :D

[Isildur]

Hate does dissipate from shadows, and yeah it was introduced in the same update as the "RNG nerf"....hate dissipating from shadows isnt nearly as significant as getting hit for 150-200 damage though. I'd probably rank it up there with "shield blocked hits" for around 20-30 damage. If you want to tank without shadows you most certainly can, but remember that no matter what you do your Enmity level will always be decreasing over time.

PLD/WARs mainly get their hate-control from Cure IV spamming themselves and others (this is where Ethereal is a godsend), Parade Gorget is worthless while tanking something that'll hit you for 200-300 every attack round so Shield Torque, Harmonia Torque or Fortitude for the extra +5 VIT is more effective. If you have an MP base of around 350 then building to about 200TP and using Chivalry with no -/+ stats to MND will fill it up, giving you an instant pool of MP to Cure IV spam with again. However, due to the fact that you're getting hit all the time you will be losing hate faster than someone with shadows, this is why you have to compensate with more curing.

PLD/NIN derives hate from Flash / Cure IV..and not getting hit much in the process. You need more enmity to compensate for the spike hate you would get from Provoke, but Cure IV's hate generation is definetly up there with Provoke if you have enough Enmity. Keeping up your shadows / using Sentinel when both timers are down / Cure IVing party members will boost your hate level much much faster than PLD/WAR will, since your hate level will be dropping ALOT slower from not getting hit. Using Parade Gorget on PLD/NIN also helps keep your MP pool from draining, since you wont be getting full potential out of that Ethereal Earring, you're going to need the extra 1mp/tick.


P.S.- I've noticed that being smacked for 0 damage makes your hate level decrease a bit as well, i thought it was some crazy shit but my mantle proc'd on a DRG Aern once with nobody doing anything to it right afterwards, and it just went after a mage on the ramp. This is probably some rare occurence where 2 people share a hate level thats almost equal, hence where the mob missing or hitting for 0 damage would result in the mob to put you down a notch and go after the person who shared equal hate.

[Rocl]

NIN/BRD generates the most hate from Raptor Mazurka spam, right? Any other songs that produce substantial hate?

Probably Chocobo Mazurka too

can't get chocobo from sub. Elegy gets a small amount of hate also.

I read it BRD/NIN woops

[Ravenlokk]

NIN/DRK reaches any kind of enmity "cap" faster than PLD/NIN. I speak pre-sent/ramp update from experience. I have yet to give that a whirl in a longer fight yet.

NIN/DRK helps PLD/NIN he's co-tanking with generate more hate too ...
Souleater + Cure4 = win. Huge hate ramp for the "Tanks" better hate balance too ^^.

[Beckwin]

hate loss from losing a shadow is laughably miniscule.

pld/nin can compete with nin/drk for hate, but its entirely dependent on how much curing there is to be done.

I really don't think there is an enmity cap, because otherwise blms could just hit a point where they could do infinitely more damage and not pull anymore hate. The more hate you hold, the more damage your DDs can deal.

[Suiram]

I really don't think there is an enmity cap, because otherwise blms could just hit a point where they could do infinitely more damage and not pull anymore hate. The more hate you hold, the more damage your DDs can deal.

The hate cap is noticeable for quite the opposite reason. Rather than being able to do infinite damage, a BLM will pull hate by doing something otherwise innocuous like casting stoneskin. It's not something that happens often, but if you've had a rough fight that's gone on far longer than it should have as happens from time to time, you'll see people who normally never pull hate doing so for little to no discernable reason, even if your tanks haven't died or been charmed or roared or anything the entire time.

[Celeras]

hate loss from losing a shadow is laughably miniscule.

pld/nin can compete with nin/drk for hate, but its entirely dependent on how much curing there is to be done.

I really don't think there is an enmity cap, because otherwise blms could just hit a point where they could do infinitely more damage and not pull anymore hate. The more hate you hold, the more damage your DDs can deal.

The cap is whenever all your abilities/spells are on timer and theres nobody to cure, they dont mean to imply that there is a set number you hit in which any further action will do nothing. Just that the enmity loss will catch up with you when you run out of things to spam, and you have to wait for cooldowns before continuing to build your enmity.

Some jobs reach that moment faster then others depending on how many enmity tools they have at their disposal.

There definately is no hard cap, anyone taking hate for miniscule reasons is just the effect of the tanks enmity deterioration, and your own building.

[Toth]

Here's a new question: Can a PLD/NIN now level straight to 75 with Sentinal and Cure III/IV IF they know what they are doing?

[Suiram]

There definately is no hard cap, anyone taking hate for miniscule reasons is just the effect of the tanks enmity deterioration, and your own building.

This is a difficult argument because hate in FFXI can't be quantified by any means I'm aware of. (unlike apparently in WoW where they have UI mods that will give you numeric values for individual players' hate levels?)

With no cap, if you have good tanks and smart mages, then over the course of a longer fight the mages should be less likely to pull hate since even though tanks do experience enmity deterioration, they net more hate than anyone else over any sufficiently large interval. But it practice it's quite the opposite, where the longer a fight goes on the more likely the tanks are to lose hate to someone else, suggesting that the hate they had was at some cap and the previously negligible hate deterioration brought them below the hate value of someone else near that cap.

[Celeras]

There definately is no hard cap, anyone taking hate for miniscule reasons is just the effect of the tanks enmity deterioration, and your own building.

This is a difficult argument because hate in FFXI can't be quantified by any means I'm aware of. (unlike apparently in WoW where they have UI mods that will give you numeric values for individual players' hate levels?)

With no cap, if you have good tanks and smart mages, then over the course of a longer fight the mages should be less likely to pull hate since even though tanks do experience enmity deterioration, they net more hate than anyone else over any sufficiently large interval. But it practice it's quite the opposite, where the longer a fight goes on the more likely the tanks are to lose hate to someone else, suggesting that the hate they had was at some cap and the previously negligible hate deterioration brought them below the hate value of someone else near that cap.

Ok thats a fine theory, but spin it the other way. If there was a cap, the difference in tanks abilities would be totally neglible. Sure a Nin/Brd may gain hate faster initially, but once he hits that cap any Nin/War will slowly creep up and take hate no matter what they do, at which point they'll have the same enmity level and trade hate equally.

Not the case at all.

[Suiram]

What you're suggesting is that a NIN/WAR would never see hate once over the course of a fight, regardless of its length, provided the NIN/BRDs he's tanking with don't have any kind of severe hate loss or reset. But that's not the case, the NIN/WAR does see hate eventually, just not enough to 'compete'--so to speak--to contribute as a tank. But it's for the same reasons the NIN/BRD accumulates hate faster at the start that he continually pulls ahead faster than the NIN/WAR, even near the cap.

[Lhexh]

Actually that scenario you describe has happened for us recently when we began to realize there is a "hate cap". We had a make-shift tank party with a NIN/BRD, RDM/NIN and NIN/WAR on Tiamat. From 100%->45% the RDM/NIN and NIN/BRD co-tanked it and the NIN/WAR didn't take target once. At around 40-45% the NIN/WAR began to start taking hate and every provoke after landing he would consume a few images before the RDM or NIN/BRD took hate off him with an action. From 40% to 0% the hate was even between all 3 tanks until Roar hit the NIN/BRD, which then took her 3 Mazurkas to get hate back to the "cap".

[Celeras]

What you're suggesting is that a NIN/WAR would never see hate once over the course of a fight, regardless of its length, provided the NIN/BRDs he's tanking with don't have any kind of severe hate loss or reset. But that's not the case, the NIN/WAR does see hate eventually, just not enough to 'compete'--so to speak--to contribute as a tank. But it's for the same reasons the NIN/BRD accumulates hate faster at the start that he continually pulls ahead faster than the NIN/WAR, even near the cap.

A Nin/War will never see hate once the fight gets going, unless the /brd eases up or gets hit. Fact.

The idea of a hard enmity cap is absurd. Thats basically saying that if a fight goes on long enough and nobody throws on the brakes, everybody in the alliance will have the same amount of hate. It just doesnt happen that way. Enmity builds up, fighting against X rate of deterioration. If you ease up too much or get hit alot, the deterioration will take over and youll drop. As long as that never happens, your enmity will continue to generally build, and youll never lose hate to 'someone casting stoneskin'...

Of course theres no way to prove this, but thats how it is. Theres too many thing that just wouldnt happen, that do, if there was a hard cap.

[Miang]

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else, Shield Mastery gives 6 TP instead of 5 now too

[XxSlusherxx]

Here's a new question: Can a PLD/NIN now level straight to 75 with Sentinal and Cure III/IV IF they know what they are doing?

thats going to depend more on the party than on the pld, that being said, too huge factors why it would be thougher are no Ni till 74 and no Carnage Ellegy till 59, so your still going to suffer emnity loss from damage taken.

That being said if you have 8 sword merits like a lot of the wars on this board you might be able to do it through DDing, but then your going to lose out on shield bash and def food. so It's hard to say, am I going to give it a try? of course, if I feel like I'm in a party where the people will be able to work with it.