PLD Update Effects

[Suiram]

What you're suggesting is that a NIN/WAR would never see hate once over the course of a fight, regardless of its length, provided the NIN/BRDs he's tanking with don't have any kind of severe hate loss or reset. But that's not the case, the NIN/WAR does see hate eventually, just not enough to 'compete'--so to speak--to contribute as a tank. But it's for the same reasons the NIN/BRD accumulates hate faster at the start that he continually pulls ahead faster than the NIN/WAR, even near the cap.

A Nin/War will never see hate once the fight gets going, unless the /brd eases up or gets hit. Fact.

The idea of a hard enmity cap is absurd. Thats basically saying that if a fight goes on long enough and nobody throws on the brakes, everybody in the alliance will have the same amount of hate. It just doesnt happen that way. Enmity builds up, fighting against X rate of deterioration. If you ease up too much or get hit alot, the deterioration will take over and youll drop. As long as that never happens, your enmity will continue to generally build, and youll never lose hate to 'someone casting stoneskin'...

Of course theres no way to prove this, but thats how it is. Theres too many thing that just wouldnt happen, that do, if there was a hard cap.

Hmmm, let me play the Celeras game:

The idea of there being no enmity cap is absurd. Of course there's no way to prove this but that's how it is.

There, now I'm right until you post again.

[Celeras]

What you're suggesting is that a NIN/WAR would never see hate once over the course of a fight, regardless of its length, provided the NIN/BRDs he's tanking with don't have any kind of severe hate loss or reset. But that's not the case, the NIN/WAR does see hate eventually, just not enough to 'compete'--so to speak--to contribute as a tank. But it's for the same reasons the NIN/BRD accumulates hate faster at the start that he continually pulls ahead faster than the NIN/WAR, even near the cap.

A Nin/War will never see hate once the fight gets going, unless the /brd eases up or gets hit. Fact.

The idea of a hard enmity cap is absurd. Thats basically saying that if a fight goes on long enough and nobody throws on the brakes, everybody in the alliance will have the same amount of hate. It just doesnt happen that way. Enmity builds up, fighting against X rate of deterioration. If you ease up too much or get hit alot, the deterioration will take over and youll drop. As long as that never happens, your enmity will continue to generally build, and youll never lose hate to 'someone casting stoneskin'...

Of course theres no way to prove this, but thats how it is. Theres too many thing that just wouldnt happen, that do, if there was a hard cap.

Hmmm, let me play the Celeras game:

The idea of there being no enmity cap is absurd. Of course there's no way to prove this but that's how it is.

There, now I'm right until you post again.

I gave you reasons, and you came back and gave the exact opposite experiences. Granted im talking as a ninja, and youre talking as a 'Blm75 etc'. But what else needs to be said?

Our Nin/Wars dont tank with Nin/Brds, because they cant. And our tanks dont lose hate to mages casting stoneskin. Different experiences, different results, end of conversation.

[Krandor]

What you're suggesting is that a NIN/WAR would never see hate once over the course of a fight, regardless of its length, provided the NIN/BRDs he's tanking with don't have any kind of severe hate loss or reset. But that's not the case, the NIN/WAR does see hate eventually, just not enough to 'compete'--so to speak--to contribute as a tank. But it's for the same reasons the NIN/BRD accumulates hate faster at the start that he continually pulls ahead faster than the NIN/WAR, even near the cap.

A Nin/War will never see hate once the fight gets going, unless the /brd eases up or gets hit. Fact.

The idea of a hard enmity cap is absurd. Thats basically saying that if a fight goes on long enough and nobody throws on the brakes, everybody in the alliance will have the same amount of hate. It just doesnt happen that way. Enmity builds up, fighting against X rate of deterioration. If you ease up too much or get hit alot, the deterioration will take over and youll drop. As long as that never happens, your enmity will continue to generally build, and youll never lose hate to 'someone casting stoneskin'...

Of course theres no way to prove this, but thats how it is. Theres too many thing that just wouldnt happen, that do, if there was a hard cap.

Hmmm, let me play the Celeras game:

The idea of there being no enmity cap is absurd. Of course there's no way to prove this but that's how it is.

There, now I'm right until you post again.

Except he offered some valid backing to his argument whereas you did little more then say "Uhuh I'm smarterz then you" I've seen NIN/WARs limp along in a fight where NIN/DRKs or PLD/NINs were tanking and not get hate anymore period after maybe 4 or 5 minutes of the fight had gone by.

[Beckwin]

Check it.

If I'm cotanking w/ a pld/war, I pretty much dominate hate most of the fight. But if the mob is only on me, it means the pld/war isn't taking damage which means he isn't losing any hate. So he's spamming voke and flash and losing nothing. I take some damage occasionally and all the little shadow losses add up, which allows for the pld/war to catch up and grab hate every once in awhile.

[Suiram]

I wasn't suggesting that the existence of a hate cap makes NIN/WAR a comparable tank to NIN/BRD. Only that the fact that it isn't does not in itself mean that there can't be a hard cap. I don't see how you can say that all I'm saying is "Uhuh I'm smarter than you," when I'm doing the exact opposite. I've given observations and reasoning that supports there being a cap, I've tried to explain how Celeras's 'counterexamples' hold even with a cap. All Celeras is effectively doing is shouting "I'm right" louder, and then playing the "well I am a tank so I clearly know more than you" card.

[Kilik]

Has anyone figured out what the Enhancement from AF2 head does for Rampart now? The Enhance Sentinel on the feet is nice, so Im wondering if the lolcrown is worth carrying around now.

[Tekki]

Don't see why they would change it. Should still add 15sec to Rampart. Give me a minute and Ill check.

There was a reason the change the feet. No real reason to change the head

EDIT:

Yup same thing, 45 sec w/ Valor head

[Sidanoir]

PLD/NIN being more hate than PLD/WAR ? hrm....? I beg to differ from my experiences on Tiamat..

I guess my LS is still old school, but when we kill Tiamat we generally go PLD/WAR with BRD/SMN, WHM/SMN type setup...I guess its cause we have a gjallarhorn....we have pulled PLD/WAR on Tiamat off with as few as 1 WHM..so yeah...go go relic horn...PLD/WAR works better for us cause we dont always have the SMN damage to speed up the fight...so resort to BLU/THF LOL ownage in air...or SAM/THF and of course kraken darks >.>
Personally I had the most fun on tiamat tanking it as DRK/NIN from 100-->0 , my Hrotti procced 18 times for the win LOL

We haven't fought Tiamat since this change, cause of holiday break but when we do Sentinel is going to pretty much make Mighty Strikes into Mighty Taps.....crit for 40 oh noos..and make PLD/WAR even buffer...

PLD/NIN is uber for SMN only stuff for sure...no need to worry about hate from DDs there

SAMs can bust out 4-5 1000+ gekkos before mob turns..

PLD/NIN 2 1000+ gekkos Tiamat is gonna turn..

As far as solo tanking Tiamat..I did it on NIN/WAR once for 45 mins...then the trainer let an arch corse beat me to death...its very hard to do...without elegy its impossible, just can't keep up shadows..considering there would be times where Tiamat would be without Elegy under 25%...I sincerely doubt Tiamat can be solo tanked from 100-->0% without sleeps...

Unless you have good stun support or something..but 6 man I dont know <.<

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

^

I think your PLD/NIN just suck at playing their class.

Honest opinion of someone that isn't that good at playing Paladin, rarely uses it over Warrior (and Ninja), doesn't have stellar gear, but doesn't really have any problem holding hate in long fights as /NIN. It's just that better than the classic PLD/WAR or at least it was in the 8 months I had it at 75 while still doing HNM.

[Sidanoir]

^

I think your PLD/NIN just suck at playing their class.

I think we just don't use PLD/NIN for Tiamat....we have something that works and we aren't going to change it.

I have seen other PLD/NIN in action with SAM/THF...and Tiamat turns pretty easy...as far as are they skilled at it, I don't really remember...

Explain to me how PLD/NIN generates more hate than PLD/WAR who is being aerial armored?. I know aerial armor is not 100% proc, but it procs enough..and Tiamat doesn't aoe too much on ground

[Vekta]

from all my experiances in endgame using PLD/NIN it beats PLD/WAR on hate everytime (after the first 5 mins or so of the fight) and leads to much much cleaner fights. It all comes down to is the PLD geared to tank /NIN if they arent then /WAR will probably hold more hate.

getting hit hate loss > shadow taken hate loss couple that with a low flash timer cures and job abilitys and /NIN reaches a higher hate level than /WAR is able to reach.

[Sidanoir]

from all my experiances in endgame using PLD/NIN it beats PLD/WAR on hate everytime (after the first 5 mins or so of the fight) and leads to much much cleaner fights. It all comes down to is the PLD geared to tank /NIN if they arent then /WAR will probably hold more hate.

getting hit hate loss > shadow taken hate loss couple that with a low flash timer cures and job abilitys and /NIN reaches a higher hate level than /WAR is able to reach.

Most tanks no matter how good still get hit occasionally on Tiamat, usually when Elegy is off...Aerial Armor spam with 2-3 /SMN is actually surprisingly reliable..

I guess we would have to use our own PLD/NINs and have SAMs SA: Gekko to see the difference between when the SAMs need to log <.<

[Coldone]

I guess my LS is still old school, but when we kill Tiamat we generally go PLD/WAR with BRD/SMN, WHM/SMN type setup...I guess its cause we have a gjallarhorn....we have pulled PLD/WAR on Tiamat off with as few as 1 WHM..so yeah...go go relic horn..<.<

And Nidhogg with 0 whms

[Sidanoir]

I guess my LS is still old school, but when we kill Tiamat we generally go PLD/WAR with BRD/SMN, WHM/SMN type setup...I guess its cause we have a gjallarhorn....we have pulled PLD/WAR on Tiamat off with as few as 1 WHM..so yeah...go go relic horn..<.<

And Nidhogg with 0 whms

Ya that too <.< lol

[Coldone]

getting hit hate loss > shadow taken hate loss couple that with a low flash timer cures and job abilitys and /NIN reaches a higher hate level than /WAR is able to reach.

Even with /nin a pld is going to still get hit, probably slightly less than one being spammed with Aerial Wind. With /war you have not just voke, but warcry, berserk (which would be cancelled immediately), and defender.

[Takedown3]

berserk doesnt give you hate

defender only good for def boost also does not give hate

[Miruka]

If you go PLD/WAR with Aerial Armor over PLD/NIN, you're using 2-3 (or more) people where you could have used 1.

[Sidanoir]

berserk doesnt give you hate

defender only good for def boost also does not give hate

Wrong..they both generate very small amounts of hate...i used to use berserk in air on Tiamat for shits and giggles on nin/war...sometimes it would turn her to me...

All actions you do once you are on a mobs hate list have some amount of enmity associated with them, no matter how small it is.

[Tekki]

Even Holy Circle gives hate. Everything you hit can generate hate, even if its an extremely small amount.

[solsovly]

berserk doesnt give you hate

defender only good for def boost also does not give hate

Wrong..they both generate very small amounts of hate...i used to use berserk in air on Tiamat for shits and giggles on nin/war...sometimes it would turn her to me...

All actions you do once you are on a mobs hate list have some amount of enmity associated with them, no matter how small it is.

Right. You'll find this out on pet jobs alot. Even eating food generates a very tiny amount of hate.