PLD Update Effects

[Medivac]

sentinel is one of those things you can merit to reduce timer, 3 pld/nin with that, hmmmm good game ninja's, you had a good run

[Isildur]

if you are depending on the 0.00001% hate that defender and zerk add (i still dont think they give hate)

not arguing pld/war is better on wyrms, but ANY positive status buff you apply to yourself/your party generates hate. Even casting shadows generates hate. It's not a lot and it fades fast but the idea that zerk/defender add no hate is laughable. Anybody who has used either ability a lot has sensed this.

Berserk, Defender, and Holy Circle = generates minimal hate

Utsusemi Ichi/Ni, Warcry = generates just a bit more than the 3 above (i only say this cause i've grabbed hate with Ni way more often than i've grabbed hate with Holy Circle or Defender)


So basically PLD/WAR has more abilities to spam for hate, but the majority of their abilities generates such a dismal amount of hate that its not worth getting smacked for 200-300 damage by say, Tiamat or Jormungand.

The amount of "max" hate PLD/WAR can achieve in about 5-10 seconds time exceeds the hate PLD/NIN can achieve in 5-10 seconds, but the hate quickly diminishes from getting hit constantly and the hate level from PLD/NIN falls much much slower. PLD/WAR isnt a bad job, there are just many things PLD/NIN can outclass PLD/WAR on....i'll be the first to admit that PLD/WAR can tank virtually anything PLD/NIN can, but some fights are just smoother with PLD/NIN. MNKs in Dynamis are better left to PLD/WARs, Tiamat and Proto-Ultima are better left to PLD/NINs...etc etc

[Thandronen]

If holy circle generates any hate its so minimal its not worth the effort of pressing the macro to use it. The loss of hate you'll suffer from exerting physical energy irl outweighs the benefit.

No doubt! I've never seen Holy Circle generate anything, even against Undead mobs.

With Defender though I have seen a mob turn to me quite a few times so I bet with Sentinel there is a little extra hate added in there. I usually just hit it and then turn it off right away afterwards unless I really need it.

[Swatt]

er, warcry is quite a bit of hate, comparable to rampart

[bebeci]

er, warcry is quite a bit of hate, comparable to rampart

More people it hits, the greater the hate.
IMO, it's a lot of hate when you hit yourself and 5 other people.

[Lyramion]

I think no HNM did ever draw in someone for us after NIN/BRD and PLD buff.

Its more like the tanks themself battle out their hate for Epenis masturbation till the mob dies >>;

[Coldone]

Pld/war will also be curing themselves most of the time as well, which is going to make up for a lot of the hate being lost from getting hit. Hell we had a Nidhogg where we didn't have a whm at all and plds were basically the main heal. But then again, we have a Gjallahorn in tank party so they pretty much have unlimited mp. Cure 4 >>>> hate than Utsusemi.

As far as not getting hit with pld/nin.. if elegy gets resisted or you get some wing spams... not even the best ninja is going to avoid getting hit a few times.

Perhaps over a long period of time.. maybe pld/nin can hold hate better, I'm still a bit skeptical... however... If you were to lose hate, or a tank go down and need to be replaced, a pld/war can generate a lot more hate in a shorter period of time without question.

[Swatt]

Pld/war will also be curing themselves most of the time as well, which is going to make up for a lot of the hate being lost from getting hit. Hell we had a Nidhogg where we didn't have a whm at all and plds were basically the main heal. But then again, we have a Gjallahorn in tank party so they pretty much have unlimited mp. Cure 4 >>>> hate than Utsusemi.

As far as not getting hit with pld/nin.. if elegy gets resisted or you get some wing spams... not even the best ninja is going to avoid getting hit a few times.

Perhaps over a long period of time.. maybe pld/nin can hold hate better, I'm still a bit skeptical... however... If you were to lose hate, or a tank go down and need to be replaced, a pld/war can generate a lot more hate in a shorter period of time without question.

INVINCIIIBLEEEEEEEEE

[Kayos]

Over the course of a long fight I dont see how anyone can deny that pld/nin is superior at holding hate then a pld/war.

One thing that I dont think has been mentioned in this thread is that yes pld/nin do lose a miniscule amount of hate from losing shadows but actually castaing utsusemi gives that small amount of hate right back and then some.

Also one poster brought up a great point. Pld/Nin is almost a must on mobs like Khimaira that you really dont want to spam TP. Unless of course its broken ...

[Julian]

I think no HNM did ever draw in someone for us after NIN/BRD and PLD buff.

Its more like the tanks themself battle out their hate for Epenis masturbation till the mob dies >>;

so true

lyra i'mma rape the hate outta you at timmy if i ever get that af2 body <.<

[Sidanoir]

getting hit hate loss > shadow taken hate loss couple that with a low flash timer cures and job abilitys and /NIN reaches a higher hate level than /WAR is able to reach.

Even with /nin a pld is going to still get hit, probably slightly less than one being spammed with Aerial Wind. With /war you have not just voke, but warcry, berserk (which would be cancelled immediately), and defender.

Aerial Armor requires multiple people to keep the tank alive.

/NIN means the tank is responsible for keeping himself alive, letting the other jobs focus on what they're actually supposed to be doing instead of babysitting.

More than that your warcry, provoke and beserk don't mean shit because all they're doing is trying to cancel out the dmg you're taking from normal hits, since AA is not going to be anywhere close as reliable as utsusemi to blink tank.

^

I think your PLD/NIN just suck at playing their class.

I think we just don't use PLD/NIN for Tiamat....we have something that works and we aren't going to change it.

I have seen other PLD/NIN in action with SAM/THF...and Tiamat turns pretty easy...as far as are they skilled at it, I don't really remember...

Explain to me how PLD/NIN generates more hate than PLD/WAR who is being aerial armored?. I know aerial armor is not 100% proc, but it procs enough..and Tiamat doesn't aoe too much on ground

A capable pld/nin will almost never get hit by melee attacks.

A capable pld/war is completely at the mercy of his AA rotation, which Tiamat doesn't exactly care about. Tiamat does an AOE move, the PLD/NIN goes and puts his own shadows back up. The PLD/WAR is fucked until the /SMN puts the AA back up.

If you think that pld/war w/ AA takes less damage than pld/nin, you're dillusional.

It sounds to me from "we have something that works and we aren't going to change it" that you don't even care if theres a better strategy, which means your argument loses a ton of crediblity.

"We can win so our strategy is the best"

This isn't the case...I know PLD/WAR gives more tp, I also know PLD/WAR is going to get hit more...we are just more comfortable with PLD/WAR tanks on Tiamat...it has nothing to do with not caring about a better strategy....I spoke from my experience (ie. from what I have seen) PLD/WAR holds better hate on Tiamat with aerial armor spam (what we mostly use).....and I guess im just confused cause I have never seen good PLD/NIN on Tiamat, therefore it is harder to believe to me it works better....every Tiamat other LS have done with PLD/NIN has been horrible, a clusterfuck and damn funny to watch.

We have 27 Tiamats under our belt..which isn't that much compared to some other LS , but in those 27 we have used NIN/WAR, NIN/DRK, PLD/WAR, PLD/NIN and even DRK/NIN as tanks succesfully...
We are always game for changing up strats and stuff, it makes it more fun..however Tiamat is highly competitive pop nowadays..and while most LS are kind enough to hold it for us for a couple hours while they wipe, we don't like taking that chance..so we stick to our guns so to speak..getting there fast is the key for us...

Also generally we don't have 2 BRDs to give to the tank party to give the PLD/NINs maximum effectiveness, unless thinks that PLD/NIN shouldn't get march and ballad...1 BRD with 1 March, 1 ballad for ground kinda makes mp hurt to me (unless we have the g horn there)..but its doable..

So don't confuse what I said for saying OMFG my strategy is better than yours haha..

Its just a product of watching shitty ass PLD/NIN tank Tiamat, and knowing that our strat of PLD/WAR works comfortably for the shell....and we are pretty much always running to get there..often claiming with small numbers where the extra PLD/WAR hate at the start is sometimes needed

[Garret]

The new update really only further cements the effectiveness of Pld/Nin, especially on a mob like Tiamat.

Tiamat uses Touchdown.
Pld/Nin loses Shadows.
Tiamat readies Mighty Strikes.
Pld/Nin uses Sentinel.
Tiamat hits Pld/Nin for 0, lol.
Pld/Nin gets shadows back up.
Tiamat's Mighty Strikes wears off.

Sure Pld/War can work for Tiamat, been there & done that, but I feel about a million times safer with /Nin so that I don't suck up some 600-800 damage crit if I get unlucky, eating up that sort of damage is the diarhea of hate. Yes it does work with AA, and you can have an effective AA rotation, but that's putting the responsibility of shadows on 2-3 people often times, instead of having a Pld/Nin who handles his own shadows, and then you can leave the rest of your tank to support him with buffs & Cures.

You point out that Tiamat is a highly contested pop oftentimes, and I'm sure this is true, that points even more to the usefulness of a tank which doesn't require a constant AA rotation, because they are more self sufficient.

I prefer using Pld/War over Pld/Nin, when I can, it requires a lot less effort on my part and is not particularly demanding, but there are many fights where Pld/Nin is just more efficient for hate & control;

Bahamut v. 2
Tiamat
Omega
Ultima
Jorm (Pld/War works relatively well here too)
Khimaira
Cerberus

Pretty much anything else in the game I would say Pld/War is a wash vs. Pld/Nin, both are easily capable of tanking it but I don't think either is going to particularly outshine the other and it's just a matter of personal preference.

Actually, I will say that I much prefer Pld/War for Dynamis, you have a lot more avenues for getting hate & it is much more effective against multiple mobs primarily because of being able to rotate more abilities to do crowd control with.

[Sidanoir]

Don't you guys toss a stun at touchdown to give the chance to cast Utsusemi? O.o

PLD/NIN gets hit a lot harder than PLD/WAR....
Sentinel no doubt improved PLD/NIN also!

And Tiamat is a pussy at high hp, usually its just getting stable hate setup if we are claiming with low numbers...if you go there as PLD/NIN and the mob isn't slow/elegy you are gonna get fucking owned...not to mention if you dont have haste/march you are gonna get owned harder..

There were a few times having the extra short term hate generation of PLD/WAR has been helpful at Tiamat claim..

As for long term, once you reach the "hate cap" yes PLD/NIN is going to lose hate slower...but the "hate cap" isn't absolute and you can short term spike beyond that cap (it dissipates faster sure) just before a SAM/THF gekkos for instance...

Different strokes for different folks I guess!

[Xajii]

er, warcry is quite a bit of hate, comparable to rampart

More people it hits, the greater the hate.
IMO, it's a lot of hate when you hit yourself and 5 other people.

Though in a fair number of tanking situations (including the running example of Tiamat), you're only going to hit 2-3 really, since half your pt should be far away

[TsingTao]

PLD/NIN gets hit a lot harder than PLD/WAR....

Um, why? You're not wearing a SH and eating Jack O' Lanterns or something as Pld/Nin are you?

[Coldone]

PLD/NIN gets hit a lot harder than PLD/WAR....

Um, why? You're not wearing a SH and eating Jack O' Lanterns or something as Pld/Nin are you?

Well at least for 3 mins out of every 5 you are... unless /nin give you defender?

[Asherek]

PLD/NIN gets hit a lot harder than PLD/WAR....

Um, why? You're not wearing a SH and eating Jack O' Lanterns or something as Pld/Nin are you?

Well at least for 3 mins out of every 5 you are... unless /nin give you defender?

Eh? Defender is 3 minute lasting time, 3 minute recast, so you can have it on eternally. >.>

In any case, PLD/WAR will generate more hate within a 2 - 3minute window than PLD/NIN, but after that point in time, given two PLD wearing comparably good equipment and equal playing style, the PLD/NIN will win hands down on any fight longer than 5 minutes. Easily.

While I appreciate you're able to do PLD/WAR thing, you yourself said that your only comparison was to PLD/NIN's who weren't able to do their jobs/were shitty. That's not really a good enough basis to form an opinion on PLD/NIN; you need to really see a smooth PLD/NIN fight to see how great that job combo is.

[Xavier]

Pld/war will also be curing themselves most of the time as well, which is going to make up for a lot of the hate being lost from getting hit. Hell we had a Nidhogg where we didn't have a whm at all and plds were basically the main heal. But then again, we have a Gjallahorn in tank party so they pretty much have unlimited mp. Cure 4 >>>> hate than Utsusemi..

The day that subbing ninja means a paladin loses his cure spells is the day I agree with you.

This isn't the case...I know PLD/WAR gives more tp, I also know PLD/WAR is going to get hit more...we are just more comfortable with PLD/WAR tanks on Tiamat...it has nothing to do with not caring about a better strategy....I spoke from my experience (ie. from what I have seen) PLD/WAR holds better hate on Tiamat with aerial armor spam (what we mostly use).....and I guess im just confused cause I have never seen good PLD/NIN on Tiamat

You're talking out of your ass to say one strategy is better when you've never even seen something else done properly.

[Garret]

The day that subbing ninja means a paladin loses his cure spells is the day I agree with you.

Their Pld/Nin are too busy getting interrupted trying to cast Ichi to bother with Cure spells.

PLD/NIN gets hit a lot less than PLD/WAR....

Fixed.

[Lordwafik]

The day that subbing ninja means a paladin loses his cure spells is the day I agree with you.

Their Pld/Nin are too busy getting interrupted trying to cast Ichi to bother with Cure spells.

Are you serious? Mobs get elegied + slowed these days, not only that, most pld/nin setups involve 2 paladins, that's 6 shadows the mob is slowly going through when it's just meleeing, Plenty of time for even a Cure4 to slide through.

Situations where AOE's happen and shadows strip are what Ni is for. Then again you have flash > Ichi , another tool in your array. Add homam legs for fast cast, add the recent shield blocking = not interrupting spells.

PLD/NIN don't become helpless in healing self or others.