PUP Improvements - Dec. Update 2006

[miokomioko]

Economizer seemed awesome until I realized it probably wasn't an FF6 Economizer.

I mean, those things only dropped off Brachosauri. Plus they were horribly broken.

The sad part is, as broken as FF6 Economizer was, it still wouldn't fix PUP. Although it might break ENM60..

I'm just hoping that Tranquilizer is a significant magic accuracy boost that might help enfeeble mobs as gnarly as gods or HNMs with little failure, or at least help with how horribly resisted Stormwakers' nukes are against said mobs.

Tiny sidenote, one time merit camps were overflowing in every place so I ended up going as PUP to the 'ol wyvern/tiger camp in Kuftal with an ls-party. This time, I decided to use Stormwaker since I had recently put merits into Automaton Magic Skill to teach it Aero III. I kept up one Light and one Dark the entire pt and every time it casted, it did about 320~380 dmg Aero III nukes. That was rather impressive dmg versus Sharpshot considering time between casts was significantly shorter than time between Ranged Attacks or TP usage. It was completely out of the question for Puks, and I've never gotten anything besides ridiculous resist rates from Imps, so I had yet to ever try using Stormwaker at any other merit pt. Now that Scanner allegedly works, and with the reports that Automatons will now nuke with Ice maneuvers on, which in turn would boost casting speed (Mana Booster/Mana Channeler), magic attack (Loudspeakers), and now magic accuracy (Tranquilizer). Perhaps PUPs should start retrying the 'ol Stormwaker for damage output if you can indeed still restrain it from enfeebling mobs that will die as fast as merit mobs. On the side, if the mob is in range, maybe you can get a Knockout or two to land, but I guess lolz @ needing Evasion-down on any merit mob (besides Mamool Ja THF/NIN).

p.s. I found the evasion-down effect from Knockout to be very noticable when I recently fought the Asuran Fists WSNM skeleton. Not an easy effect to try and determine with numbers, but from like 70% accuracy on it for the first half of the fight, I pretty much stopped missing the mob after Knockout hit it.

[Elmer the Pointy]

On Bismarck at least, there are a few floating around, all of which were on AH for exorbitant prices and did not sell.

I'm guessing this trend is FFXIwide, and the few that sold were more to rich lolPUPs than real PUPs who'd come here and post tests. Could be just me.

That always bugged me. Why is it the rich as balls PUPs that blow millions are never on PUP and never share info or post on forums?

Someone bought a Turbo Charger once for like 5 million gil before it dropped below 500k after less than 2 weeks. Never see him on PUP.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

That always bugged me. Why is it the rich as balls PUPs that blow millions are never on PUP and never share info or post on forums?

As a rule, you don't get rich by letting out your secrets. Often the richest people, ingame and irl, are the most secretive due to this. Its just a learned trait to get and stay rich.

[Toth]

I noticed the same thing Elmer

[doofy]

There is a predictable person who pulls this on Asura (2M+ each for the new ones, with one of the four going for 100k to an actual PUP, its laughable), its a gilbuyer who is picking them up for a "cyber friend". Not sure if this is the same thing as you're seeing, but since PUP is seen as a "cute" job by some, I guess it fits with the "I iz hawt, buy my pupz things".

I guess I'm "rich as balls" but intelligent players dont blow pointless gil on untested items, especially when they're as easy to get as the Talif pieces. The only problem with this crap is that the new ones are backstocking on the AH and people think they're going to sell at the same price. Doesnt matter much to me personally, but it does screw over people who can't spam Talif runs.

BTW, as far as ranged attacks go, start using full SS/Drum Mag/Wind Maneuvers. Since the new WSs are almost impossible to miss now (its not 100% but its damn close, I've missed Daze once) full Sharpshot with Drum Mag is better than VE/SS. The shot speed difference isnt even close, and it can wear the same attachment layout as VE/SS. Its similar to the impact of the Tactical Processor + SW head. It takes a bit of getting used to in terms of placement for max dmg/meleeing (run "through" the mob while engaging and deploy when you turn around) but the results so far are currently smashing the hell out of VE/SS.

-Vyzrael (Asura)

[Toth]

What about TP gain on that combo, Doofy? I am hesitant to try it because of the fast TP the meleeing SS frame can get. Is it about the same overall?

edit: NVM I see what you do to get the SS to melee. Sounds very promising!

[Janice]

On Bismarck at least, there are a few floating around, all of which were on AH for exorbitant prices and did not sell.

I'm guessing this trend is FFXIwide, and the few that sold were more to rich lolPUPs than real PUPs who'd come here and post tests. Could be just me.

That always bugged me. Why is it the rich as balls PUPs that blow millions are never on PUP and never share info or post on forums?

Someone bought a Turbo Charger once for like 5 million gil before it dropped below 500k after less than 2 weeks. Never see him on PUP.

They are busy making money, they don't have time to test things. Either that or they RMT'd their money and wouldn't know how to test it.

[doofy]

You should be meleeing the same with SS/SS, tp gain isnt even close as shot speed by default is nearly cut in half. It can go as low as 9s per shot with spammed wind maneuvers, which also stack haste/racc at the same time, but overloading is a problem so its typically WM/FM/LM with thunder popped at 90%. You also cant blindly deploy like most PUPs do while switching mobs, which is what the "running through the mob + deploy" is referring to. Its not that hard to get the puppet into position to melee as SS/SS, especially if you've been doing meripo for a long time and know what you're doing.

Its extra effort to make it work, but the results arent even close (as is the case with most jobs). Lazy PUPs will still use VE/SS since they can deploy anywhere, but these are also the same PUPs who use one maneuver every 5 minutes and somehow still manage to overload while focusing primarily on their h2h damage. Too many people are still trying to make the job a MNK (Usu will be a nice boost), but if the damage gap is going to be bridged it'll come primarily from the puppet. I can get about 15-20%/12-15% split going currently in above avg meripo setups (not junk parties, but not ridilberk spam either), which is near the 50/50 mark I assume SE planned for the job.

-Vyzrael (Asura)

[Toth]

Doofy, can you please post some parses of your PUP meritting experiences ; ; I hate being the only one who does and I love to see other's experiences and hear about differences in strategies.

Personally, I always used VE/SS because I was getting faster TP when it meleed and in the fast pace of a meripo, deploying and having it run to the mob allowed me to focus on other things like getting a new manuever up or readying a weaponskill. However, with maxed archery skill and now 2 merits in archery, I want to try this DM tactic out and see if I can find a noticable difference.

[Kenai]

Man...late posting in this thread, but I thought I'd put my 2 cents (sense?) in.

The update was both a very good and a very bad thing, to me. On the one hand, you've got a bunch of fixed attachments and new puppet weaponskills, even some (finally) really good melee gear for PUP. I'm not gonna comment on the attachments since I havent tried them yet. Despite being nothing spetacular, those WSes are a step in the right direction, and now PUP, without that new and VERY good for them melee gear, puts out DECENT numbers. However....

The melee gear from Salvage is just as much of a curse as a blessing. I guess I am one of the (few) fortunate PUPs that will actually be allowed to lot on some of the Salvage pieces as they drop, despite the fact that PUP has absolutely nothing in comparison to that gear ( I mean, I can understand some of the pieces going to other jobs first, like NIN getting the feet, but some greedy fuckers not letting a PUP lot on ANYTHING, not even the legwear, despite PUP actually being useful in Salvage and in desperate need of good gear? Damn!) With other jobs *at best* competing for these new gear pieces, there lies still a little problem of "we don't know how much good gear like that will improve PUP's parser". Don't give me the "oh it's better for X other job" bullshit, because actually, considering other job's have at least *decent* alternatives, often really good ones, while PUP does in fact not, that's actually far from the truth. I don't expect any job to pass for PUP, but if a PUP has spent the hard time leveling to 75, participates in your LS, and you still completely cut them off, I'd be honestly ashamed of myself...

I am really pissed that SE released such amazing gear, but yet nothing to tide a PUP over while we work for it. Honestly, most of our gear selection throughout our leveling career is pathetic, and I'd really, really like to see what a pimped out PUP can do with some gear like this, as it's never been possible before. (This was actually a problem I had with one of your earlier statements, Toth. Our best "pimp out gear" prior to this update was P gear, which is hardly anything compared to sky, cursed gear, and AFv2, and reasitically, far from "pimp", even if it was the best we had. This creates a big misconception that we have easily acessable, and comparable, gear to other melees, when we don't. Most people really don't know that.) It will be ages upon ages before a PUP can test out this gear set, and sadly with absolutely nothing else to compare to most of the pieces gear-wise, we are SoL on what it will do for us until then. Even if a PUP does start parsing much better with a set like this, that would still mean a PUP would have to work exceptionally hard and spend quite a long time, just to compare. As nice as a Ridill WAR is, it's still a good job without it, they have nice AH, Sky Gear, AFv2, and lots of stuff to tide them over, for example. PUP needs things like this too, and this particular issue was not addressed at ALL despite being a huge one.

Then, there is the whole "lolendgame PUP" quip. I'm not so sure how short memory spans are, but I recall a time not too long ago (a little over a year? pre-ranger nerf), when all non-BLM and non RNGs were forced to sit on the sidelines for the majority of endgame fights, in add pts and such. Seeing as how most melee had to struggle for YEARS to get put into these types of fights (some needing ridiculously overpowered things like Ridill and BB, no less), I was definitely not expecting PUP to be put into a spot overnight (BLU and COR still need work too, but not as much as PUP). As things like Tier 2 merits, PUP relic-esque things, and endgame-dropped attachments and new frames haven't been released yet, I can only speculate, and hope, for now. But seriously, if PUP gets into a spot within the next year, it will be faster time than most of the other melee jobs had. I hate using the lame "wait and see" comment, but considering some melee are STILL waiting (poor BSTs), at least wait a bit more on that aspect...

[Toth]

This was actually a problem I had with one of your earlier statements, Toth. Our best "pimp out gear" prior to this update was P gear, which is hardly anything compared to sky, cursed gear, and AFv2, and reasitically, far from "pimp", even if it was the best we had. This creates a big misconception that we have easily acessable, and comparable, gear to other melees, when we don't. Most people really don't know that

Great point, Kenai and thanks for clarifying. So true was your comment about the Usukane gear. I am going for the Morrigan body first (since I use BLM more than PUP at end game and that body armor is just...wow) and then trying for some usukane. Judging by how the first week and a half of salvage has gone, it is going to take some time before anyone can get even one piece. Nothing to hold us over until February (if anything is indeed coming).

[miokomioko]

Since anyone in Salvage paid the hefty 2000 Assault Points to get in there, I don't think anyone should ever have to pass the armor drops for job priority reasons, even if it does result in "lolPUP won Usukane body pieces" drama. I'm not forking over 2000 AP to help a NIN get some boots to help them keep hate (which they do just fine already). I'm there to get loot for myself. At this time in FFXI, I'm focused on completely pimping out my PUP as much as possible (while exping other maat jobs on the side) for one sole reason. PUP is the funnest job. Maybe it'll benefit me in the future if they find a niche, or maybe it will continue to result in "lolPUP"s, either way it's fun. Since it costs me 2000 AP per attempt, PUP is a helping hand in Salvage, and PUP can wear Usukane, you bet your ass I'm lotting that shit.

The whole concept of the job, be it from the official description from SE, or the general equipment accessability, PUP was created as a back-line job, which controls an expendable little robot fighter. I wish they actually maintained that, and stopped trying to encourage meleeing with shitty H2H skill and shitty WSs, while lacking any realistically obtainable equipment for TP and WS. We're goddamn street entertainers, clowns, frail little jesters, not monks. Usukane was a retarded addition that's only going to anger players who lose lots to PUPs.

[XxSlusherxx]

considering alternatives you could make a pretty good argument for pup getting Usu body, all three other jobs have acsess to D.body, SH and Osode, and sam and nin can equip Byrnie and Haub. I mean yes it's some of these combined and it's pretty good, but it's one of the few salvage peices that left me uninspired.

[Ninjiz]

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1...abilityjg2.jpg

A chart liek this would be great... if you know... if it were way more accurate

[Julian]

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1...abilityjg2.jpg

A chart liek this would be great... if you know... if it were way more accurate

hmm, you're right, maybe war and mnk should be higher.

mnk should also extend lower cause of all the gimp mnks who eat sushi and use warwolf or life belts.

[Ninjiz]

hmm, you're right, maybe war and mnk should be higher.

mnk should also extend lower cause of all the gimp mnks who eat sushi and use warwolf or life belts.

Or maybe, that Mnk should be lower then it is compared to NINs as far as "usefulness" in merits. Mnks can do sick dmg sure, But in my experience its mostly the case when they go Mnk/War. And for a "ideal" merit melee burn party a Mnk/war is not what you want. A mnk/war becomes THE tank, thus becoming a MP leech, which means extra wasted mp curing the said mnk./war to keep then alive. Ideally the mnk has to come Mnk/nin which in turn drasticly drops its oevrall dmg output.

My experience with super equipped DD Ninja has been, that those DD Ninja only get outparsed by Ridill wielding Wars. So ninja should be higher then what it is now.

Id also argue Sams standing on this chart as most sams end up tanking the party too. I also see Sam/thfs parsing pretty high too. Though they pull crazy hate too. So i dont see how Sams that do a lot of dmg, and spam WS' are so low on the list. The only thing i coudl see it being so low, is because Sam/nin isnt what you want? /nin drops overall performance of Mnks, but it seems to hit sams harder?

Id also argue the Rng and Blu standing on this chart, cause im not sure why Blus name is so far below Rng for usability in merit, despite the top of the line user for both being so close (according to this chart). So why is the name for blu so far below it? Is it because your rng goes and pulls or something? So i dont understand the higher usabilty for rng over blu. Esecially when blus pull way more hate cause of the dmg they do, then rngs, who usually only pull hate off good nins and Wars when they WS. So is it because of the BLus MP pool that it relies on, thus limiting its dmg in longer battles?

And lastly teh chart gives WAY way more credit to bottom of the line mnks and Wars. EVen a DRG is better then a crappy War or crappy Mnk, hell anything is, as long as that anyone isnt a crappy user of his or her job.

So yea, to me the chart is not accurate.

[Minions]

hmm, you're right, maybe war and mnk should be higher.

mnk should also extend lower cause of all the gimp mnks who eat sushi and use warwolf or life belts.

Or maybe, that Mnk should be lower then it is compared to NINs as far as "usefulness" in merits. Mnks can do sick dmg sure, But in my experience its mostly the case when they go Mnk/War. And for a "ideal" merit melee burn party a Mnk/war is not what you want. A mnk/war becomes THE tank, thus becoming a MP leech, which means extra wasted mp curing the said mnk./war to keep then alive. Ideally the mnk has to come Mnk/nin which in turn drasticly drops its oevrall dmg output.

My experience with super equipped DD Ninja has been, that those DD Ninja only get outparsed by Ridill wielding Wars. So ninja should be higher then what it is now.

Id also argue Sams standing on this chart as most sams end up tanking the party too. I also see Sam/thfs parsing pretty high too. Though they pull crazy hate too. So i dont see how Sams that do a lot of dmg, and spam WS' are so low on the list.

Id also argue the Rmg and Blu standing on this chart, cause im not sure why Blus name is so far below Rng for usefulness in merit, despite the top of the line user for both being so close (according to this chart). So why is the name for blu so far below it? Is it because your rng goes and pulls or something? So i dont understand the higher usabilty for rng over blu. Esecially when blus pull way more hate cause of the dmg they do, then rngs, who usually only pull hate off good nins and Wars when they WS.

And lastly teh chart gives WAY way more credit to bottom of the line mnks and Wars. EVen a DRG is better then a crappy War or crappy Mnk, hell anything is, as long as that anyone isnt a crappy user of his or her job.

So yea, to me the chart is not accurate.

Which is why u bring 4 mnk/war so the shit doesnt stay alive long enough to hit anyone /war.

And Kraken RNG will outdue any blue that I know of in meritpo.

[Ninjiz]

Which is why u bring 4 mnk/war so the shit doesnt stay alive long enough to hit anyone /war.

And Kraken RNG will outdue any blue that I know of in meritpo.

Why do that, and spam cure, when i could bring Wars and Nins and still get 17-20k exp an hour, and not ever run out of mp? And sometimes finding 4 mnks, is a pain, like back in the day when we used to do KRP burns.

Also how many Rngs do you see with Kraken clubs? how many peopel WITH kraken clubs use them in merit? how many rngs do you see standing close enough to the mob to gain tp from melee while doing top dmg with ranged? Unless the purpose is to use KC long enough to get TP, and tehn walk away, WS, then rinse wash repeat?

[Minions]

Corwen, Semitry, or 30m if anyone decides the buy them in rolanberry

[Sidanoir]

I wanna go KC rng to the Greater Colibri camp