PUP Improvements - Dec. Update 2006

[Khamsin]

Flame/Triumph Rings (+10 str)
Minuet Earring (+1 str)
Potent Belt (+3)
AF Boots (+3)
Palu Legs (+3)
Chiv Chain (+3) or sea torque (huge bonus no matter what)
Light Gauntlets (+3)
Voyager Sallet (+3)

thats +26 STR or +29 if you are gimp and sea torqueless.

I can only get +19 STR for my WS build without sacrificing tons of accuracy

I think he was just referring to STR in slots not occupied by significant accuracy (e.g. ring, belt, head, etc.)

[Toth]

Flame/Triumph Rings (+10 str)
Minuet Earring (+1 str)
Potent Belt (+3)
AF Boots (+3)
Palu Legs (+3)
Chiv Chain (+3) or sea torque (huge bonus no matter what)
Light Gauntlets (+3)
Voyager Sallet (+3)

thats +26 STR or +29 if you are gimp and sea torqueless.

I can only get +19 STR for my WS build without sacrificing tons of accuracy

I think he was just referring to STR in slots not occupied by significant accuracy (e.g. ring, belt, head, etc.)

Max, did you not read what I said? I have all that gear except I use a Thunder Gorget and I do not use the Truimph Earring (Attack 6 > STR 1). I do not use 2 flame rings BECAUSE I NEED ACCURACY DUE TO A 241 MAIN WEAPON SKILL. Yeah, let me sacrifice 5 accuracy for 5 STR >.> I use one ring for WS and thats it.

Look, its apparent that the job isn't fixed enough for you guys to be satisified enough for you but I will keep parsing in hopes of convincing others at least. Perhaps a party where the other jobs do not have 50% bonuses on the majority of mobs we fought. More data is needed for sure to make more accurate discussions. Don't think I am delusional to make you people want to invite a PUP over a WAR/NIN/MNK etc. My point has, and will continue to be, that PUP function as a productive and solid member of a merit party. I only hope more tests can prove it.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Flame/Triumph Rings (+10 str)
Minuet Earring (+1 str)
Potent Belt (+3)
AF Boots (+3)
Palu Legs (+3)
Chiv Chain (+3) or sea torque (huge bonus no matter what)
Light Gauntlets (+3)
Voyager Sallet (+3)

thats +26 STR or +29 if you are gimp and sea torqueless.

I can only get +19 STR for my WS build without sacrificing tons of accuracy

I think he was just referring to STR in slots not occupied by significant accuracy (e.g. ring, belt, head, etc.)

Potent belt is accuracy sir. I've worked with 240ish weapons. I know what they can do.

Don't think I am delusional to make you people want to invite a PUP over a WAR/NIN/MNK etc.

With what you've shown I'd invite literally any DD over them and be justified.

[Toth]

Good for you, Max. Really. You would never invite a PUP anyway so why bother convincing you?

[Sasarai]

With what you've shown I'd invite literally any DD over them and be justified.

While I somewhat agree when it comes to potential, I don't think even you could disagree that most DDs (especially when it comes to pickup meripo parties) live up to even half their potential, Maxx.

The last pickup meripo I joined in the Thickets had an Axe/Axe Osode-full-time WAR who was easily out-parsed by myself on SAM and another on DRG (not even including wyvern damage). Bottom line is, there are alot of shit DDs out there and honestly I would rather take a good PUP over a gimped alternative.

They aren't quite as lol as they used to be, but they still need alot of work (which, no doubt, will follow).

[Toth]

While I somewhat agree when it comes to potential, I don't think even you could disagree that most DDs (especially when it comes to pickup meripo parties) live up to even half their potential, Maxx.

The last pickup meripo I joined in the Thickets had an Axe/Axe Osode-full-time WAR who was easily out-parsed by myself on SAM and another on DRG (not even including wyvern damage). Bottom line is, there are alot of shit DDs out there and honestly I would rather take a good PUP over a gimped alternative.

They aren't quite as lol as they used to be, but they still need alot of work (which, no doubt, will follow).

Completely well said Sarasai. This is my point entirely. A PUP should not be passed over for a merit party for a crappy WAR or other gimped jobs just because it is PUP. Plus, if you know a PUP in your ls (soooo few anyway) who wants to merit, at least have some data to go on so you can justify inviting him, even for pity's sakes. You may be surprised.

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

(...) Don't think I am delusional to make you people want to invite a PUP over a WAR/NIN/MNK etc. My point has, and will continue to be, that PUP function as a productive and solid member of a merit party. I only hope more tests can prove it.

Dude, you're obviously looking for praises for being such a dedicated Puppettmaster but what you refuse to get is that you're progressively getting more and more ridicolous as the post follow one another and at this rate mods will change the title of the thread into "LolToth: will the lolness ever wear?".

Because the problem here isn't PUP, which is in my opinion some approximately designed job that has been thrown into the game just to give bored people something else to play without thinking much about its role and balance within an already established gameplay and that SE gamedesigners are slowly trying to fix update after update;

the issue is that, since you're apparently rather ignorant about DD classes mechanics and Merit parties in general, you don't understand that A. considering the mobs you were fighting, the combined damage of yours and Puppet's WS you've (proudly) shown is simply mediocre, B. a 4 men Lv75 party (War/Nin, real Melee, BRD and WHM) could easily get past chain #40 if the Mire isn't crowded assuming your BRD puller isn't completely retarded (ergo, you haven't accomplished jack shit with your chain#34) and C. that being substantially outparsed by a DRG is pretty lol and definately labels you as dead weight for any half-decent exp group;

point is that the info and parse results posted above don't prove in any way that you and your automaton can be a solid alternative to the classic Meripo melee classes because I'm pretty sure that your party could've breached chain#30 and lol10k/hr even if you were afk on the sides the whole time playing with your doll. Rather they're clearly showing how extremely gimp the damage output of a (well geared, no less) Puppetmaster can be.

Caedarva is an extremely easy camp, mobs are so ridicolously weak that even a Lv72 pick up party takes less than 40 seconds to mindlessly kill any of them; take your "Merit party", with the same identical set up, to Uleguerand range instead (a camp that doesn't forgive mistakes and requires a lot of firepower which Dragoons and Puppetmasters cannot grant) and I assure you that your band of gimps will get wiped in less than a few chains, assuming that you're able to kill fast enough to roam and go past chain 4. Then, maybe, you'll start to comprehend the reasons why people invite Warrior, Monks, Ninja and company instead of PUPs.

Nothing personal eh, take it easy.

[Alastaire]

I see a lot of potential in PUP, good work Toth. Try and get us some results from a party where everyone is on an equal level for dmg bonuses.

[RangerNddare]

You completely miss the point Celeras. For one, look at how the automaton hits for 500 almost every single time. What DD in this game, besides SMN's Nether Blast, has a guarenteed damage attack that high? Also, look at how the master can do decent damage. My build has +19 and +10 DEX for goodness sake. I didn't even post the DoT of Master + Maton because I had thought it was not neccessary. Yes, a THF can do a 2k WS as well as a RNG. HOWEVER, I will bet good money that the master and maton will do more than enough DoT between WSes (think 60-70 a swing from the master and 60 from the maton) to be more than even. What PUPhaters need to understand is that properly geared, a PUP will overcome these annoying preconcieved notions (low Hand to Hand, PUP sucks) and will do perfectly fine in merit. We only got chain 36 because we ran out of mobs. A previous merit party I was in reached 149. Do not be afraid to invite a PUP

I know this has been slightly address but I'm terribly bothered by this. I KNOW you just didn't say that a Pup + Maton can come CLOSE to out parsing a RNG in a Mire merit pt. Sure I get a DMG bonus but I've never seen a monk do 3000-3500 on a KRT party. Don't get me wrong, PUP needed a change like this in order to get some* self respect. But to even add PUP to the RNG THF WAR NIN is just idiotic. I'm not saying RNG is the best DD, or best merit DD, but no PUP will ever be able to put up numbers like the jobs above. Any serious RNG can put to shame a PUP. 80-100 per axe awing, double attacks, 400+ per ranged attack, higher than average critical rate, and guaranteed* (upon hitting) 2500+ WS damage. Not to mention a 7 shot barrage that can do as much as a WS. Again I'm not saying that RNG is the best, nor am I saying that PUP is the worst. But your point is that PUPs are now great for spam based merit parties and there are at LEAST 7 other jobs that an do more damage then a PUP.

One of the best DRGs I have ever had the pleasure to meet puts up GREAT numbers in any merit pt. This guy is one of the most skilled people I've ever met. He can basicaly turn any DRG/JOB combo into something worth it. Yes he has 4/5 Homam and almost everything a DRG would need, but gear doesn't make a player good. Knowing when is how to use the gear is the difference.

[StaplerGuy]

some* self respect. ... and guaranteed* (upon hitting)

wtf are those asterisks for?

[Toth]

A PUP at this stage can only be proud of doing mediocre damage. It is a sad fact. However, that being sad, PUPs exist at end game and you have to accept our presence there. We need to merit and frankly, this thread is more for PUPs to discuss how to work better now with our boosted automatons. I really don't give a damn about your vaunted 15k-21k exp parties with ridill warrios, etc etc. Those parties are NOT PUP territory and it is absolutely foolish to convince you we are (and which you think I am trying to do) up for that. 12k an hr merit parties is a great standard for us now and will hopefully improve as PUP gets love every update. I firmyl believe if the mire had been empty, we would have doen even better. Please, allow me to get a few more parses so we have some database to compare.

Edit: Ranger, I am referring to an average pickup RNG. A well geared RNG or any other well geared DD can wipe the floor with a PUP. They have the gear that PUP does not.

[RangerNddare]

some* self respect. ... and guaranteed* (upon hitting)

wtf are those asterisks for?

Dude get a fucking life or something. Of all the things I just said you point how the asterisks on words that I wanted to point out. My purpose was obviously accomplished since you are jackass enough to point them out.

[jiang]

Good for you, Max. Really. You would never invite a PUP anyway so why bother convincing you?

Red Herring Logical Fallacy.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/redherrf.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... rring.html

[Toth]

Well if you want to bring logic into it,

The orginal argument (Argument A): PUP can perform solid in a merit party
Argument B (Max and others): You should invite other jobs over PUP for merit

Argument B completely twists Argument A because Argument A never said a PUP can perform exceptionally well enough compared to those other jobs to mean "OMG Get the PUP. NOW". People with Argument B keep bringing up how everyone else can outDD a PUP when all Argument A simply said was geared to showing that PUP can do decent enough damage in the right merit parties.

[Priran]

some* self respect. ... and guaranteed* (upon hitting)

wtf are those asterisks for?

Dude get a fucking life or something. Of all the things I just said you point how the asterisks on words that I wanted to point out. My purpose was obviously accomplished since you are jackass enough to point them out.

clear, concise, compelling

Anyone have any nobel prizes lying around?

[jiang]

Well if you want to bring logic into it,

The orginal argument (Argument A): PUP can perform solid in a merit party
Argument B (Max and others): You should invite other jobs over PUP for merit

Argument B completely twists Argument A because Argument A never said a PUP can perform exceptionally well enough compared to those other jobs to mean "OMG Get the PUP. NOW". People with Argument B keep bringing up how everyone else can outDD a PUP when all Argument A simply said was geared to showing that PUP can do decent enough damage in the right merit parties.

all Argument A simply said was geared to showing that PUP can do decent enough damage in the right merit parties.

with that aside...

As much as I'd love it for PUP to be a good choice, and as much as it has potential, it really does fall short of a viable 'merit job' (i don't know why people are so fascinated on how jobs perform in merits anyway). what SE fails to provide is a set job in the party. The automaton is too stupid to be a healer, but its too weak to be a damage dealer, but at the same time the PUP has access to errant gear, just barely got a decent WS, and generally has a very poor set of gear choices. i guess the new patch does fix the job, but in the long run, what exactly could a PUP do? i really don't know where SE is going with this one.

i think they made a bad choice of making both BLU and PUP 'mold it into what job you want it to be!' kind of thing, because every job that does that, (like RDM prior to refresh, dispel and convert o god) no matter what game these kinds of mixed jobs has trouble keeping up with the other jobs unless it has something unique.

[Toth]

Trying to veer this topic back on the right track, I just want to mention what PUP offers now, at the end of 2006, in exp/merit wise:

Pluses:
- Fast TP gain: (MA bonsues + 2-4 swings every round)
- decent critical rate
- Matons with a fixed (350-450 from 50-70, 450-500 70+) spike damage attack every 100 tp
- Good spike damage (highest RF from my Parsar was 782, add in the normal 500 Daze from the maton and you get a nice 1282 total WS.)
- Split of enmity between master and maton for hate control
- Ability to increase maton damage with manuevers
- EMOTES

Negatives:
- Average solo WSes
- Significant loss of power if the maton is dead
- Using Mauevers up to 3 times a fight causes delays in attacking
- Extremely important to be paying attention every single fight
- Cannot boost the new WSes to full power with 3 Fire Maneuvers
- EMOTES

As for outside of merit, the automaton already did pretty good damage on gods, Jailers, and HNMs due to their defense ignoring traits. After the December update, the Nether Blast quality of Cannibal Blade gives it a nice spike damage every 100 tp and the drain effect helps to keep the automaton alive.

[jiang]

i think pup should have different stages of pups, like you can upgrade them into bigger ones

[Toth]

We were supposed to get new frames...Still waiting....

[Priran]

- Fast TP gain: (MA bonsues + 2-4 swings every round)

MNK does this better (More MAs, better ACC, Kicks).

- decent critical rate

You don't get Destroyers.

- Good spike damage (highest RF from my Parser was 782, add in the normal 500 Daze from the maton and you get a nice 1282 total WS.)

That's not good spike damage.

- Split of enmity between master and maton for hate control

DRG can do the same thing better, with High/Super Jump. No one cares yet.

As for outside of merit, the automaton already did pretty good damage on gods, Jailers, and HNMs due to their defense ignoring traits. After the December update, the Nether Blast quality of Cannibal Blade gives it a nice spike damage every 100 tp and the drain effect helps to keep the automaton alive.

Are maton hits TPless?