Salvage: Zhayolm Remnants

[Wizerd]

I wonder if this could be some sort of clue related to the 5th floor Madame. If true it would imply that different ramparts do different things. Perhaps for the 5F N Madame you have to warp directly to 5F N from the second version of 4F N, and not the first version. Or something along those lines.

Ok, video gaming sense going off. Replicating, yet slightly different areas are a favorite of many game makers, like in FFIX where you had to do the right pattern of left/rights paths in a very similar looking area to get to the black mage village, etc. This is a possibility. I don't want to believe the 5th floor frog is triggered by a random mob in zone or by random chance, as it isn't nearly as specific as the spawn conditions for every other NM.

Has anyone tried not killing/aggroing any of the frogs at all as a spawn condition for 5F Madame? <,< It seems a little too simple and would destroy the possibility of multiple-NM farming for this zone, but multiple-NM farming here isn't too easy anyway.

Many people would have seen the 5F S madame then. Also, it's only the North floor that replicates the mobs.

[Kaylia]

Offtopic...well, off the madame topic. How do you stun discoid 90% of the time? The drk we had for stun wasnt able to stun it efficiently. Is the chariot turning before using it, or you just have to camp your enter macro?

[divisortheory]

Offtopic...well, off the madame topic. How do you stun discoid 90% of the time? The drk we had for stun wasnt able to stun it efficiently. Is the chariot turning before using it, or you just have to camp your enter macro?

Not sure who you're talking to, but since we use a DRK to stun Discoid and get pretty good results, I might as well chime in. Our DRK goes DRK/RDM and gets Haste + Double March wearing Homam Cosciales, Loquac Earring, and Warlock's Mantle. This brings his Stun recast timer to below 10 seconds. We designate a stun order with DRK being first on the list. He camps stun from the magic menu, and when stun is down I call that the next person in the stun order (BLM) is up. DRK says on vent when his timer is back up (usually really fast, under 10 seconds as mentioned previously), and when it's up again I tell the BLM to start nuking and DRK goes back to stun duty. Discoid is pretty fast, so the DRK still missed one or two, but for the most part this works pretty well.

[Wizerd]

This brings his Stun recast timer to below 10 seconds.

I'd like to know how he brings his recast to under what the game allows. Even if Fast Cast brings it under 22 seconds, I'm having a hard time believing he can get it to 10 seconds.

[divisortheory]

This brings his Stun recast timer to below 10 seconds.

I'd like to know how he brings his recast to under what the game allows. Even if Fast Cast brings it under 22 seconds, I'm having a hard time believing he can get it to 10 seconds.

He didn't actually tell me it was 10 seconds, I was just estimating based on how fast I saw it come back up. It might have been 12 or 13 seconds, but it was fast as hell.

[Kaylia]

Was addressed to whoever said they stunned discoid 90% of the time a few page ago, couldnt find the post. Either way, any answer is just as good. Thanks.

I was just wondering if our drk had issue stunning it because it was his first time being a stun whore, or if people were anticipating it (using every time the chariot initiate a WS).

This brings his Stun recast timer to below 10 seconds

Stun recast is 45sec. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 50% haste on recast was the cap? Or maybe fast cast apply before (18sec)? Either way, is it really possible to bring it under 10sec lol?

[aurik]

Not under 10 seconds. Probably not under 15 seconds.

[divisortheory]

I'll ask him to check tonight, I thought he told me 11 seconds, but that was without the Warlock's Mantle so i lowered it artificially to take that into consideration. It was definitely way below 20. Anyway I sent him a PM, I could be wrong.

Edit: Based on the wiki pages about haste, march, and recast timers I was probably wrong. But anyway it was fast, lol. I'll post back when he tells me what it actually was, i just thought i remembered him saying 11, although it was like 2 weeks ago.

[aurik]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Warlock%27s_Mantle
1% fast cast from Warlock Mantle.

[Kaylia]

I'll ask him to check tonight, I thought he told me 11 seconds, but that was without the Warlock's Mantle so i lowered it artificially to take that into consideration. It was definitely way below 20. Anyway I sent him a PM, I could be wrong.

Edit: Based on the wiki pages about haste, march, and recast timers I was probably wrong. But anyway it was fast, lol. I'll post back when he tells me what it actually was, i just thought i remembered him saying 11, although it was like 2 weeks ago.

Nin/rdm would be broken if they could get such recast. 11sec Utsu:ni and 6-7sec Utsu:Ichi (and retarded timer on bind/sleep for hate).

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Warlock%27s_Mantle
1% fast cast from Warlock Mantle.

1% fastcast = 2% recast (but it was probably implied anyway)

15% from trait, 3% from homam, 2% from loquacious, 2% from warlock mantle. That's 22% max fast cast for DRK, bringing base recast to 35 sec. Assuming fast cast doesnt count in the 50% limit, that would bring it down to 17sec max. 17 second on stun recast is extremely fast, unless the NM just reuse the same skill until his tp move goes off, it should be enough to solo stun anything

[divisortheory]

15% from trait, 3% from homam, 2% from loquacious, 2% from warlock mantle. That's 22% max fast cast for DRK, bringing base recast to 35 sec. Assuming fast cast doesnt count in the 50% limit, that would bring it down to 17sec max. 17 second on stun recast is extremely fast, unless the NM just reuse the same skill until his tp move goes off, it should be enough to solo stun anything

With only 2 MNKs dealing damage, there was a time when used Discoid twice literally within about 5 seconds of each other. I'm not sure what was going on, it didn't seem normal lol. But it was literally back to back Discoids.

[Kaylia]

Well, I had cerberus/khim/wyrm in mind more than chariot. I'm still not familiar with chariot tp gain, and ridill make it inconsistant usually. Was the first discoid stunned in your situation? Because it's not uncommon for mobs to keep their TP after being stunned...not quite sure what determine if they lose it or not, but I know Cerberus/Khim will spam WS until it goes off at time, but stop after the first stun another time


It's not impossible chariot uses Discoid at specific moment as well, added to the normal TP move. Maybe you just activated the first one, and 2nd was his normal TP move. Haven't fought it enough to notice anything like that tho.

[Suiram]

Discoid, Homing Missile, and Mortal Revolution (not sure about Brainjack because the manner he uses it there's been no point to trying) all seem to have the same windup timer, which is shorter than GoH/Fulm but not prohibitively short. If a person is experienced in stunning the latter two, they should have no problem stunning the chariot specials more often than not just using the same kind of technique. However, any Battleclad strat built around stunning Discoid as necessary to its success is doomed to failure. You have the back-to-back scenario as described above, also sometimes Salvage zones feel more laggy than other zones, not sure why, but certain days I'm perfect and other days I have a lot of problems stunning there. It will also periodically resist stuns, and it seems random and not a cumulative resist so it probably has higher than that bare-minimum stun resistance that most things have. The best course is to set up in a way that is comfortable eating as many Discoids as it uses, and then stunning when possible just to make the fight go all the more smoothly.

[Narse]

Something interesting I found out today:

Some JPs I go with occasionally (I wasn't on this run, however) noticed something today while doing Zhayolm..

The goal was BRD 15 legs, and was a small run of 7 people. They kept track of the number of enemies killed. After porting up to the fifth floor (north obviously, as they had gotten 15 gear on the forth floor), they had killed 57 enemies, and the chariot was not up. I think they mentioned something with ramparts as well, but I wasn't too clear on it, and I haven't had a chance to talk to one of the more fluent english speakers of the group.. Anyways, they killed 3 gears on the floor (sac pulled three off the room where they rotate around), and after the 60th mob, the chariot popped.

I'm REALLY starting to lean towards the chariot dropping gear, much like Arrapago does (prolly not all of the pieces, but at least a piece or two, maybe 3).

[divisortheory]

Something interesting I found out today:

Some JPs I go with occasionally (I wasn't on this run, however) noticed something today while doing Zhayolm..

The goal was BRD 15 legs, and was a small run of 7 people. They kept track of the number of enemies killed. After porting up to the fifth floor (north obviously, as they had gotten 15 gear on the forth floor), they had killed 57 enemies, and the chariot was not up. I think they mentioned something with ramparts as well, but I wasn't too clear on it, and I haven't had a chance to talk to one of the more fluent english speakers of the group.. Anyways, they killed 3 gears on the floor (sac pulled three off the room where they rotate around), and after the 60th mob, the chariot popped.

Wow, this is weird as FUCK. I'm almost inclined to say POIDH, but it sounds too weird to be made up. Could the 5th floor Madame require a certain exact number of mobs to be killed?

What I find weird is that nobody has ever in all of Salvage reported this, but surely people have gotten to 5F N without killing 60 mobs before?

[Suiram]

In the screenshots with the widescan list for 5S madame, by counting the number of red dots it seems the chariot is up for them (8 gears in that big room normally, right?).

Also in that runthrough that aurik translated, they killed 114 mobs, of which 16 were pets, one was the card NM, 5 were ramparts, and 1 was Reinforcements (Marid).

[Narse]

I doubt too many people check if the chariot is up when they hit 5th floor N. On top of that, I am even more reluctant to say that many people have killed their 60th mob while on the fifth floor N side and then checked to see if the chariot was up after having checked it earlier and seen it was not up.

[divisortheory]

I doubt too many people check if the chariot is up when they hit 5th floor N. On top of that, I am even more reluctant to say that many people have killed their 60th mob while on the fifth floor N side and then checked to see if the chariot was up after having checked it earlier and seen it was not up.

How can you not check if the chariot is up? It's right in front of your face when you're otw to teleporter.

Anyway check this out:

floor 1:
puk 4
rap 4
bugard 4
bugard 4
cockatrice 4
cockatrice 4
mamool
cockatrice 4
cockatrice 1
20:30 sec time

floor 2:
lizard x8 mamool
wyvern x5
card NM
wyvern x4
lizard x7
20:30

floor 3:
enter at 41:00
24 mamool, 7 dragoon pet, 7 lizard pet
1 door
20:30 again

floor 4:
enter at 61:30
4 mamool + 1 dragoon pet + 1 lizard pet
all 8 frogs
all 4 doors + 1 marid
20:30 again

floor 5:
enter at 82:00
frog is up
(no drop)

First Floor: 30
Second Floor: 26
Third Floor: 25 (39 if you count pets)
Fourth Floor: 16 (19 if you count pets and marids)
Total: 97 (114 if you count pets and marids)

[Suiram]

You're missing 14 pets from floor 3, so it's 97 if you're not counting those. Also, if there's anything you wouldn't count I would think it would be the card NM, but that's just my prejudice. Anyway, Narse, were the people you went with including pets in their count or not?

[divisortheory]

Here's a few problems I have with this theory (at least regarding the 5F S Madame):

1) When my friend's group popped it twice in a row they really did not kill a whole shitton of mobs. They did kill slightly more than I usually kill, but it wasn't anything phenomenal.
2) Kaylia's group yesterday killed a TON of mobs, so many in fact that they killed the 3F S Madame for HP/MP cells. Yet it did not pop for them.

Perhaps the chariot is a global requirement, and the Madame is a per floor requirement? Maybe Madame is 15+ mobs per floor. I have personally never killed 15 mobs on the first floor. I usually only kill about 10. Not to mention the 4th floor. Or perhaps the Madame has a range. Like 0-70 no pop, 70-120 pop, 120+ no pop

Edit: I'm going tomorrow, I will test killing 20, 20, 25, 10 mobs (75 total). I don't think more than 10 are needed on the 4th floor because my friend's group popped it by killing only the rampart and nothing else at all.