Salvage: Zhayolm Remnants

[Rubicant]

It would be interesting if someone repeated the 114 run and didn't kill the slot NM, but killed an extra mob somewhere else.

I'm beginning to think that the only factor in popping the Madame is the NMs killed along the way, and nothing else. It doesn't explain popping after opening the door on 5F, but nothing explains that anyway so I'm just going go ignore it. SE even said "The number of defeated NMs in Zhayolm Remnants was not counted correctly", that alone tells me that number it is necessarily important.

Here's some successful pops

Suiram, myself, and JP 114 mob run
1F - 1 Mamool (1 NM)
2F - 1 mamool, 1 Slot (2 NMs)
3F - 0 NMs killed
4F - 0 NMs


Mhmmimafreak
1F - 0 Mamools
2F - 1 Mamool
3F - 0 NMs popped or killed
4F - 0 NMs


Aurik #11
1F - 0 Mamools
2F - 1 Mamool
3F - North Madame killed (1 NM)
4F - 0 NMs

in Freak's run, 1 NM was killed. In the 114 run, 3 NMs were killed. In Aurik's run, 2 NMs were killed. So for a while I was starting to think there was no connection. But then I remembered that Aurik's was on the north side, and north side is "different" than south side. This brings me back to what I've suspected all along, that there is a point system. Different NMs are worth different numbers of points. But the question becomes "What is an NM?" Here's some possible definitions:

1) Anything with much more HP than similar mobs in the zone (1F Mamools, 2F Mamools, all Madames, Marids)
2) Anything that needs to be popped (1F Gents, 2F Mamools, all madames, slot)
3) Anything that drops a chest (1F Gents, 1F Mamools, 2F Mamools, all Madames)

etc.

Also note that Proboscis Shower is an NM only Marid move, and the ones in Zhayolm Remnants use it.

I really think NMs are the key though, and I'm curious to try reproducing the 114 mob run using a completely different set of enemies killed, as long as the NMs killed are exactly the same. I might try this tomorrow.

I've been following this thread for quite some time. I too believe there is a point system involved. I salvage with Almalexia, so you can trust that I'm not flat-out retarded. Considering the "NM's were not counted properly" SE hint, the point system seems more than likely. We are talking about a 5F NM, so assuming that 5 points, or possibly a multiple thereof, is required for popping the 5F madame is not too far out there. Look at the Suiram, Divisor, and JP114 runs:
1F - 1 Mamool (1 NM)
2F - 1 mamool, 1 Slot (2 NMs)
3F - 0 NMs killed
4F - 0 NMs

Suppose the point-system, and first floor NM are worth 1 point, 2nd floor are worth 2 points, etc. Well here, we would have 1+2+2 = 5.

Look at Aurik 11.
1F - 0 Mamools
2F - 1 Mamool
3F - North Madame killed (1 NM)
4F - 0 NMs

Here, we have 2+3 = 5.

Coincedence? Maybe. Probably. Especially when you consider: Mhmmimafreak.

1F - 0 Mamools
2F - 1 Mamool
3F - 0 NMs popped or killed
4F - 0 NMs

This is just a 2. My theory cannot account for this, and have no idea what to do with it. I have never seen any screenshots about this run, and it doesn't fit with my theory, so I'm just going to throw it out the window. It remains possible that certain monsters killed but not counted in this run could be considered NM by SE. Alternatively, since Zhayolm is such an illogical mess, there could be alternate conditions to satisfy in order to force a pop, if primary conditions are not satisfied. Unlikely? Yes. When has SE ever given alternate conditions? Never? Who cares. Zhayolm makes no sense anyway. At this point, any theory with any sort of semi-logical basis should be considered, and I think this counts.
Hopefully we can all be fucking up some frogs soon.

[Sagacious Sundi]

SOUTH
-Defeating all poroggo gents had no results (Sci p9).
-Spawning no 1F gents or 2F mamool, avoiding 1F mamool and 3F rampart resulted in a madame (Suriam p20).
-Spawning no 1F gents or 2F mamool, avoiding 1F mamool and 3F rampart had no results (Sci p20).
-Spawning no 1F gents or 2F mamool, avoiding 1F mamool and 3F rampart, entering at 45 minutes resulted in a madame (Xerlic p23).
-Spawning no 1F gents or 2F mamool, avoiding 1F mamool and 3F rampart, and entering at 45 minutes resulted in a madame (Wizerd p23).
-Entering 4F at 35 minutes resulted in a madame (Divisor p29).
-Entering 4F around 47 minutes resulted in a madame (Sady p29).
-Entering 4F at 28 minutes resulted in a madame (Nikko p31).
-Entering 4F between 30-35 minutes resulted in a madame (Futceez 32).
-Entering 4F at 47 minutes had no results (Jaceot p33).
-Defeating 6 mamool, arriving at 27 minutes resulted in a madame (Marinka p53).

Hmmm, upon looking back, is it possible that the condition is ~47 minutes (or maybe ~46:59), and Sady's run was like right on the spot, but Jaceot's run was 47:01~47:59 (or 47:00~, depending on what the max time for it to pop is)?

[Jaceot]

It very well could be a more odd number such as 47 minutes. Maybe even something very strange such as the window closes at 47 minutes and 23 seconds. There's also the problem of when you start your timer. Sady could've started the clock when outside the ruins, and my groups was might have started after we were appeared in them.

Someone actually found out the clock starts when you are recieve "The order to invade *** remnants" though right?

[alphacat]

Solving Arrapago 6F mystery REALLY leads me to believe that we're over thinking Zhaylom with the kill number and what not. Look at how we got from season of tree, no detection from gears, and etc, to simply killing everything in 7min.

[divisortheory]

Solving Arrapago 6F mystery REALLY leads me to believe that we're over thinking Zhaylom with the kill number and what not. Look at how we got from season of tree, no detection from gears, and etc, to simply killing everything in 7min.

If you can think of something simple that explains a) sometimes pop upon floor entry, b) sometimes pop upon door open when fleeing to the end, and c) sometimes no pop for either a or b, then I'd love to hear it

[alphacat]

Solving Arrapago 6F mystery REALLY leads me to believe that we're over thinking Zhaylom with the kill number and what not. Look at how we got from season of tree, no detection from gears, and etc, to simply killing everything in 7min.

b) sometimes pop upon door open when fleeing to the end

What does that mean? Also, are the things done on previous floors identical in all 3 cases?

This is why I proposed a new Zhaylom thread, there is no way anyone can contribute unless they've been following this 60 page thread. I new thread with conditions to test would be beneficial to solving the mystery.

[aurik]

Then make one.

[divisortheory]

Solving Arrapago 6F mystery REALLY leads me to believe that we're over thinking Zhaylom with the kill number and what not. Look at how we got from season of tree, no detection from gears, and etc, to simply killing everything in 7min.

b) sometimes pop upon door open when fleeing to the end

What does that mean? Also, are the things done on previous floors identical in all 3 cases?

Means exactly what it says. Sometimes when you flee straight to the end of the floor and open the door, it pops.

[Tahngarthor]

Call me a noob if you want, but I think the reason it is either up when you enter the floor or when you hit the door to the next floor, is because when you access a floor's porter room must be when it checks its NM count, and spawns anything that would be spawned by it. And we know from SE's own information that it counts NMs (Which mobs are considered NMs seems to be the real problem now).


My main concern, though, is the 6f madames. If I read the information correctly, there are supposed to be two. There are also two Ramparts in this floor. My thought was that each of these is the key to one of them (but probably not the only thing.

Possibilities:

-Kill the rampart while fulfilling some other as-yet unknown condition
-Kill some number of that rampart's reinforcements (I havent actually fought these though- Do these ramparts attack? or are they like the ones in bhaflau reminants?) and it spawns/has chance to spawn a madame, possibly also based on some other condition.
-clear the floor and kill both, fufilling some other unknown condition.
-Perhaps the NM count is part of the condition but you must hit the floor door for them to pop.

[divisortheory]

Call me a noob if you want, but I think the reason it is either up when you enter the floor or when you hit the door to the next floor, is because when you access a floor's porter room must be when it checks its NM count, and spawns anything that would be spawned by it. And we know from SE's own information that it counts NMs (Which mobs are considered NMs seems to be the real problem now).

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Facts
1) Sometimes it is up immediately when entering the floor.
2) Sometimes it is not up immediately when entering the floor and it is not possible to make it pop at all.
3) Sometimes it is not up immediately when entering the floor but it is possible to make it pop by opening the door to 6th floor.

Problem
Determine a unified theory which accounts for 1, 2, and 3 above, and give explicit conditions that explain under which circumstances the results will be 1, 2, or 3.

[Tahngarthor]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand here:

Very often the game checks things when you click on an object (such as gilded doors). All i'm saying is it is simply checking the NM count when you hit the door to exit the pervious floor, and when you hit it on the next floor, and deciding to spanwn or not spawn the NM at these times. If it checks the NM count and pops the mob when you hit the door to the 5th floor, you will find it up when you enter the 5th floor. If not, it will not be up. If the NM count changes to be correct while on the 5th floor, and you hit the door to the 6th floor, it will pop at that time. Doesn't this make sense? What i'm saying is it's when you hit these doors that it decides to pop the NM. Your listed facts do not include any possibility of it being up between hitting the door to the 5th floor and the door to the 6th floor. My statements follow those known facts.

Are you killing any of the mobs/NMs on the 5th floor before running to hit the door in a case where it pops? if the NM count changes between going up to the 5th and opening the door to the 6th, it would then pop when you open the door to the 6th, if the NM count is what matters.

So, if I must use your silly system to explain:
Theory
These conditions will lead to results 1, 2, or 3 above:
A) The door to the 5th floor is hit, with the NM counter (and possibly other conditions) at its presumed correct value. This results in Fact 1 above.
B) The door to the 5th floor is hit, and the NM counter (and possibly other conditions) is not at its presumed correct value. The NM is not up when entering. This leads to:
--B1) The NM count and/or other conditions are not altered while on the 5th floor. This leads to fact 2 above.
--B2) The NM count and/or other conditions are changed while on the 5th floor, allowing the NM to pop the next time the NM counter/other conditions are checked, which occurs again when you activate the door to the next floor. This leads to fact 3 above.

[divisortheory]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand here:

Very often the game checks things when you click on an object (such as gilded doors). All i'm saying is it is simply checking the NM count when you hit the door to exit the pervious floor, and when you hit it on the next floor, and deciding to spanwn or not spawn the NM at these times. If it checks the NM count and pops the mob when you hit the door to the 5th floor, you will find it up when you enter the 5th floor. If not, it will not be up. If the NM count changes to be correct while on the 5th floor, and you hit the door to the 6th floor, it will pop at that time.

Please read what I wrote again. Sometimes fleeing straight to the porter and opening the door without doing anything else on the entire floor makes the Madame pop. If all you do is open a door, the NM count didn't change.

[Tahngarthor]

Hasn't time also been theorized to be a condition? Perhaps the time was not appropriate when you entered the 5th floor but was when you hit the door to the 6th. (Plug this into the statement "Other conditions" above).

(now for this part, I apologize. No, I have not gone back and read the entire 61 page thread- Perhaps this would be a good time to start fresh, and include a summary of findings in the first post?)

[aurik]

Make one yourself.

[divisortheory]

Hasn't time also been theorized to be a condition? Perhaps the time was not appropriate when you entered the 5th floor but was when you hit the door to the 6th. (Plug this into the statement "Other conditions" above).

But this is exactly what I theorized earlier on this and the previous page. I assumed you had read it and were elaborating on it which is why I didn't understand what you were talking about, I guess you just didn't read it.

viewtopic.php?p=707654#p707654

[NynJa]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand here:

Very often the game checks things when you click on an object (such as gilded doors). All i'm saying is it is simply checking the NM count when you hit the door to exit the pervious floor, and when you hit it on the next floor, and deciding to spanwn or not spawn the NM at these times. If it checks the NM count and pops the mob when you hit the door to the 5th floor, you will find it up when you enter the 5th floor. If not, it will not be up. If the NM count changes to be correct while on the 5th floor, and you hit the door to the 6th floor, it will pop at that time.

Please read what I wrote again. Sometimes fleeing straight to the porter and opening the door without doing anything else on the entire floor makes the Madame pop. If all you do is open a door, the NM count didn't change.

Kalia...if I'm not mistaken, Tahngarthor is that galka summoner who advocates subbing blm and meleeing...

[Tahngarthor]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand here:

Very often the game checks things when you click on an object (such as gilded doors). All i'm saying is it is simply checking the NM count when you hit the door to exit the pervious floor, and when you hit it on the next floor, and deciding to spanwn or not spawn the NM at these times. If it checks the NM count and pops the mob when you hit the door to the 5th floor, you will find it up when you enter the 5th floor. If not, it will not be up. If the NM count changes to be correct while on the 5th floor, and you hit the door to the 6th floor, it will pop at that time.

Please read what I wrote again. Sometimes fleeing straight to the porter and opening the door without doing anything else on the entire floor makes the Madame pop. If all you do is open a door, the NM count didn't change.

Kalia...if I'm not mistaken, Tahngarthor is that galka summoner who advocates subbing blm and meleeing...

I've never advocated subbing blm. Meleeing is a different can of worms that I regret ever even thinking of. But, what does any of this have to do with Zhayholm Reminants? You know you're just going to derail the thread.

As to making a new thread, it was a suggestion. Maybe you don't want a new thread. I'll let someone who is a more careful poster than I am do it. So anyway, what about what I said about the 6th floor madames?

[recuperi]

Solving Arrapago 6F mystery REALLY leads me to believe that we're over thinking Zhaylom with the kill number and what not. Look at how we got from season of tree, no detection from gears, and etc, to simply killing everything in 7min.

If you can think of something simple that explains a) sometimes pop upon floor entry, b) sometimes pop upon door open when fleeing to the end, and c) sometimes no pop for either a or b, then I'd love to hear it

On that note, 2 questions that kinda tie to what you said: Do you kill any mobs on the 4th floor? and if so: Do you open the door to 5th floor before killing any of said mobs? Just trying to contribute to the discussions a bit

[divisortheory]

Solving Arrapago 6F mystery REALLY leads me to believe that we're over thinking Zhaylom with the kill number and what not. Look at how we got from season of tree, no detection from gears, and etc, to simply killing everything in 7min.

If you can think of something simple that explains a) sometimes pop upon floor entry, b) sometimes pop upon door open when fleeing to the end, and c) sometimes no pop for either a or b, then I'd love to hear it

On that note, 2 questions that kinda tie to what you said: Do you kill any mobs on the 4th floor? and if so: Do you open the door to 5th floor before killing any of said mobs? Just trying to contribute to the discussions a bit

It's never happened to me. It might have been Suiram that it happened to in this thread. Also happened to some JPs. As far as I can tell all they do is have a thief hit flee, run straight to the end aggroing everything, and open it before they die. Madame somehow pops.

Edit: Ooops you said 4th floor. not sure about others, I personally always kill 4th floor Madame if it's up. Also obviously the rampart to unlock the porter is killed.

[recuperi]

wasn't thinking about the whole picture there; forgot you had to kill a rampart to even open the door ._.

I guess tahngarthor's theory's kinda thrown out unless for some odd reason they would do rampart then madame.