Salvage: Zhayolm Remnants

[Tahngarthor]

wasn't thinking about the whole picture there; forgot you had to kill a rampart to even open the door ._.

I guess tahngarthor's theory's kinda thrown out unless for some odd reason they would do rampart then madame.

perhaps, but it is certain there is more than one check for that madame to pop. (I realize this is not news )

[Gwynplaine]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand here:

Very often the game checks things when you click on an object (such as gilded doors). All i'm saying is it is simply checking the NM count when you hit the door to exit the pervious floor, and when you hit it on the next floor, and deciding to spanwn or not spawn the NM at these times. If it checks the NM count and pops the mob when you hit the door to the 5th floor, you will find it up when you enter the 5th floor. If not, it will not be up. If the NM count changes to be correct while on the 5th floor, and you hit the door to the 6th floor, it will pop at that time. Doesn't this make sense? What i'm saying is it's when you hit these doors that it decides to pop the NM. Your listed facts do not include any possibility of it being up between hitting the door to the 5th floor and the door to the 6th floor. My statements follow those known facts.

Are you killing any of the mobs/NMs on the 5th floor before running to hit the door in a case where it pops? if the NM count changes between going up to the 5th and opening the door to the 6th, it would then pop when you open the door to the 6th, if the NM count is what matters.

So, if I must use your silly system to explain:
Theory
These conditions will lead to results 1, 2, or 3 above:
A) The door to the 5th floor is hit, with the NM counter (and possibly other conditions) at its presumed correct value. This results in Fact 1 above.
B) The door to the 5th floor is hit, and the NM counter (and possibly other conditions) is not at its presumed correct value. The NM is not up when entering. This leads to:
--B1) The NM count and/or other conditions are not altered while on the 5th floor. This leads to fact 2 above.
--B2) The NM count and/or other conditions are changed while on the 5th floor, allowing the NM to pop the next time the NM counter/other conditions are checked, which occurs again when you activate the door to the next floor. This leads to fact 3 above.

I don't think you're understanding the context of what happened on the run Divisor is talking about or maybe haven't read much from further back in the thread. Aurik and Vistani's group spawned 5F South Madame and detailed their run. Suiram's group then reproduced their run and the madame was not spawned. He then fled straight to the teleporter to 6F and found that the madame had now been spawned. Logically it seems like the answer of how to spawn the madame would be found in the difference between their two runs. It just makes practically no sense however, and it's very hard to imagine some kind of idea that would fit all these conditions. Your uber "Door as an NM checkpoint" theory also doesn't explain this.

(now for this part, I apologize. No, I have not gone back and read the entire 61 page thread- Perhaps this would be a good time to start fresh, and include a summary of findings in the first post?)

Maybe instead of a new Zhayolm Remnants thread, a new thread for just 5F and 6F madames could be made. That or vice versa since this thread is mainly about just that now anyways. If I have the time maybe I can try and make some kind of a summary

[divisortheory]

I don't think you're understanding the context of what happened on the run Divisor is talking about or maybe haven't read much from further back in the thread. Aurik and Vistani's group spawned 5F South Madame and detailed their run. Suiram's group then reproduced their run and the madame was not spawned. He then fled straight to the teleporter to 6F and found that the madame had now been spawned.

For whenever Suiram reads this, do you happen to have clock times of how much time was spent on each floor?

[Jaceot]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand here:

Very often the game checks things when you click on an object (such as gilded doors). All i'm saying is it is simply checking the NM count when you hit the door to exit the pervious floor, and when you hit it on the next floor, and deciding to spanwn or not spawn the NM at these times. If it checks the NM count and pops the mob when you hit the door to the 5th floor, you will find it up when you enter the 5th floor. If not, it will not be up. If the NM count changes to be correct while on the 5th floor, and you hit the door to the 6th floor, it will pop at that time. Doesn't this make sense? What i'm saying is it's when you hit these doors that it decides to pop the NM. Your listed facts do not include any possibility of it being up between hitting the door to the 5th floor and the door to the 6th floor. My statements follow those known facts.

Are you killing any of the mobs/NMs on the 5th floor before running to hit the door in a case where it pops? if the NM count changes between going up to the 5th and opening the door to the 6th, it would then pop when you open the door to the 6th, if the NM count is what matters.

So, if I must use your silly system to explain:
Theory
These conditions will lead to results 1, 2, or 3 above:
A) The door to the 5th floor is hit, with the NM counter (and possibly other conditions) at its presumed correct value. This results in Fact 1 above.
B) The door to the 5th floor is hit, and the NM counter (and possibly other conditions) is not at its presumed correct value. The NM is not up when entering. This leads to:
--B1) The NM count and/or other conditions are not altered while on the 5th floor. This leads to fact 2 above.
--B2) The NM count and/or other conditions are changed while on the 5th floor, allowing the NM to pop the next time the NM counter/other conditions are checked, which occurs again when you activate the door to the next floor. This leads to fact 3 above.

I don't think you're understanding the context of what happened on the run Divisor is talking about or maybe haven't read much from further back in the thread. Aurik and Vistani's group spawned 5F South Madame and detailed their run. Suiram's group then reproduced their run and the madame was not spawned. He then fled straight to the teleporter to 6F and found that the madame had now been spawned. Logically it seems like the answer of how to spawn the madame would be found in the difference between their two runs. It just makes practically no sense however, and it's very hard to imagine some kind of idea that would fit all these conditions. Your uber "Door as an NM checkpoint" theory also doesn't explain this.

Maybe it does.

Suppose Aurik's Group does everything they do on the 4th floor, then run to the porter and open the door. The game then decides "Ok a door is being opened, I'm gonna check if i should pop the 5th floor Madame. Yes you have enough points so I'll pop it"

Suppose Suiram's group sends someone to wait at the porter on the 4th floor upon arriving on it. They open the door and the Game decides "Ok a door is being opened, I'm gonna check to see if i should pop the 5th floor Madame. Nope not enough points yet." Then they do whatever they do on the 4th floor and game goes "You killed some mobs I'll up the point counter. (Woah you have enough points to pop the madame but I wont do anything about that yet.)" Then on the 5th floor Suiram is disappointed to see no madame so flees to portal, opens door and Game decides "Ok a door is being opened, I'm gonna check to see if i should pop the 5th floor Madame. Yes you have enough points so I'll pop it."

This seems like a retarded way to program it to me, but maybe they didnt want to run the check after every single mob was killed or some other obscure reason. Also if the mobs/door orders weren't actually as described above then this is all irrelevant.

[Kaylia]

This seems like a retarded way to program it to me, but maybe they didnt want to run the check after every single mob was killed or some other obscure reason. Also if the mobs/door orders weren't actually as described above then this is all irrelevant.

Or maybe they wanted to give people more freedom and allow them to farm additional cell after the door is opened.

[Seditedi]

Question, did the overpowered Ziz drop cells for people who have encountered it? We haven't seen one yet.

[Suiram]

For whenever Suiram reads this, do you happen to have clock times of how much time was spent on each floor?

Sadly there was some confusion as to when the ports were, since we forgot to clock entry (but reverse engineered it from the 10 min warning) and forgot to clock 5th floor entry, but have a rough idea of when it was. The relevant posts are around here: viewtopic.php?p=653497#p653497

As for door-related conditions, it is possible the 4th > 5th door was open well before advancing but I can't say I remember at all, and another idea that I've advanced already but I'll repeat anyway is that there could be a correspondence between mobs killed and the act of opening doors, and that on the 2nd floor Aurik's group opened their door manually, while we let ours open automatically by killing mamool.

[aurik]

I'm fairly confident we did *not* open the door manually, but can't be absolutely sure. It would be nice if someone reproduced our run and see if they get Kupo- or lolBees-style 5fS madame.

Went to Z today with 4 people. Did 4FN madame, then no pop on 5FN so we cleared the 3gears in the 5f final room and then the 5FN chariot, and then cleared the 6th floor gears and rampart, no pop.

[Narse]

For what it's worth, I've found that 15 seconds after the leader selects Yes to enter Salvage/Assault seems to be an accurate clock time.

[Amele]

For what it's worth, I've found that 15 seconds after the leader selects Yes to enter Salvage/Assault seems to be an accurate clock time.

I've always timed from the first message I get when I zone in, -1 second (since I'm usually second) I'm usually a tiny bit early, so it's possible it's timed from when the leader zones in.

[Wizerd]

For what it's worth, I've found that 15 seconds after the leader selects Yes to enter Salvage/Assault seems to be an accurate clock time.

I've always timed from the first message I get when I zone in, -1 second (since I'm usually second) I'm usually a tiny bit early, so it's possible it's timed from when the leader zones in.

"Commencing transport to Zhayolm Remnants."
"The order has been given to invade Zhayolm Remnants."
etc

has always been exactly accurate for me, for Assaults and Salvages.

[Narse]

For what it's worth, I've found that 15 seconds after the leader selects Yes to enter Salvage/Assault seems to be an accurate clock time.

I've always timed from the first message I get when I zone in, -1 second (since I'm usually second) I'm usually a tiny bit early, so it's possible it's timed from when the leader zones in.

"Commencing transport to Zhayolm Remnants."
"The order has been given to invade Zhayolm Remnants."
etc

has always been exactly accurate for me, for Assaults and Salvages.

Unfortunately you can't /clock during that.

[Odd]

timestamp

[Wizerd]

For what it's worth, I've found that 15 seconds after the leader selects Yes to enter Salvage/Assault seems to be an accurate clock time.

I've always timed from the first message I get when I zone in, -1 second (since I'm usually second) I'm usually a tiny bit early, so it's possible it's timed from when the leader zones in.

"Commencing transport to Zhayolm Remnants."
"The order has been given to invade Zhayolm Remnants."
etc

has always been exactly accurate for me, for Assaults and Salvages.

Unfortunately you can't /clock during that.

You can if you're not the one entering. Spam clock until it says can't do it anymore, that's your time. Timestamp is good for it also.

[aurik]

digital watch

[Kaylia]

digital watch

Previous answer made me laugh. How to make thing more complicated then they should be.

[Amele]

egg timer? (well, I guess it's more of a roast timer since it's up to 120 minutes lol)

[Hanyoko]

I have a basic sports stopwatch which I use for all these events that have a timeout (assault, salvage, bcnm, etc).

Sure the game has the warnings at X, Y, Z for many of them, but having the precise value is usefull. This does make you question why its not being drawn in the corner of the screen like pretty much every other FF game that had a 'timed quest' would.

[Amele]

I have a basic sports stopwatch which I use for all these events that have a timeout (assault, salvage, bcnm, etc).

Sure the game has the warnings at X, Y, Z for many of them, but having the precise value is usefull. This does make you question why its not being drawn in the corner of the screen like pretty much every other FF game that had a 'timed quest' would.

it would be another thing the game would have to sync with the server (eating a little bit more of their precious 56k recommended spec), since currently the time remaining is kept serverside.

they could send the timestamp to your client and let it track that way, but that's not the way they setup the timed instance events at first (BCNM) so they're probably stuck with grandfathered code now.

[TB]

I am using an onscreen Windows stopwatch as well as a windower macro that will give an "input /l Time remaining: xxx Minutes" every 5 Minutes. You can start the macro when you see the message on your screen.