Salvage: Arrapago Remnants

[Almalexia]

That actually does have something to do with a stupid leader. Smart leader will still have 8 extremely efficient people, and 4+ ppl with absolutely 0 cells, or left over cells 0 other people need. You can pretend the other 10 people arent even there, just use them on the first floor to farm stuff completely naked, and lot nothing. How does that hurt the group whatsoever?

Personally I think its a stupid argument because you may as well have 2 runs if you are going to have have 10 extras there to only slightly improve one run, but his point was still correct in its own silly way.

Brilliant idea. MNK, PUP and THF should get two permits every day in order to help disadvantaged Jobs through the first floor of Salvage. :D

[Amastacia]

Uh no, having more than 10 people becomes retarded because then you get 12+ half efficient people instead of 8-10 extremely efficient people. Nothing to do with a stupid leader, more to do with a lack of cells and too many people to handle at once.

That actually does have something to do with a stupid leader. Smart leader will still have 8 extremely efficient people, and 4+ ppl with absolutely 0 cells, or left over cells 0 other people need. You can pretend the other 10 people arent even there, just use them on the first floor to farm stuff completely naked, and lot nothing. How does that hurt the group whatsoever?

Personally I think its a stupid argument because you may as well have 2 runs if you are going to have have 10 extras there to only slightly improve one run, but his point was still correct in its own silly way.

Smart leader won't take people beyond what's needed.

Part of being smart is more than just knowing the most efficient way to use all bodies available, it's knowing what's best (and since FFXI is a game, what's fun) for those bodies.

If you're going to be naked, given 0 cells all night, and are basically either a first floor expediter or a mobile Hi Potion tank, what possible reason would you have to waste 2k AP? What kind of leader would expect you to come anyway knowing this?

You're right in that it's a stupid argument, if you have a good job split (or people with multiple 75 jobs) you can turn a run of 18 into 2 runs of 9 and see far more success and also have more satisfied members to boot. If you don't have that job split, it's better to apologize to the extra bodies and take in only what you need, unless you have people masochistic enough to enjoy 100 minutes doing nothing at a significant AP cost.

[aurik]

People already complain about the rewards for salvage being few and far between, the worst possible thing you can do is to take extra bodies to further dilute the reward per-person. It's rewarding being in a small group: even with our paltry luck, we're @1 deimos mask to capped in Arrapago and then we can take the south route for Macha Crowns.

Not a single thing I've done so far in Salvage has needed, or even benefitted, from having over 12. Better to do the zone with 9 twice than take in 9 mobile hi-potion vendors.

[Not Kuno]

Not a single thing I've done so far in Salvage has needed, or even benefitted, from having over 12. Better to do the zone with 9 twice than take in 9 mobile hi-potion vendors.

Maybe not for you but most of our bhaf boss wins have been with more then 12. lol

[geno]

Uh no, having more than 10 people becomes retarded because then you get 12+ half efficient people instead of 8-10 extremely efficient people. Nothing to do with a stupid leader, more to do with a lack of cells and too many people to handle at once.

That actually does have something to do with a stupid leader. Smart leader will still have 8 extremely efficient people, and 4+ ppl with absolutely 0 cells, or left over cells 0 other people need. You can pretend the other 10 people arent even there, just use them on the first floor to farm stuff completely naked, and lot nothing. How does that hurt the group whatsoever?

Personally I think its a stupid argument because you may as well have 2 runs if you are going to have have 10 extras there to only slightly improve one run, but his point was still correct in its own silly way.

Smart leader won't take people beyond what's needed.

Part of being smart is more than just knowing the most efficient way to use all bodies available, it's knowing what's best (and since FFXI is a game, what's fun) for those bodies.

If you're going to be naked, given 0 cells all night, and are basically either a first floor expediter or a mobile Hi Potion tank, what possible reason would you have to waste 2k AP? What kind of leader would expect you to come anyway knowing this?

You're right in that it's a stupid argument, if you have a good job split (or people with multiple 75 jobs) you can turn a run of 18 into 2 runs of 9 and see far more success and also have more satisfied members to boot. If you don't have that job split, it's better to apologize to the extra bodies and take in only what you need, unless you have people masochistic enough to enjoy 100 minutes doing nothing at a significant AP cost.

How would it be masochistic? They have as much to gain out of the run as the participating members, even though they would contribute in different ways. That is, unless you think extra bodies shouldn't be allowed to lot on the items because you didn't need them in the first place, which seems a bit selfish (and especially cruel if they happen to be your friends or linkmates). An effecient leader would only take whats needed and farm the items that are wanted, but a smart leader wouldn't alienate members and friends who are as excited to go as anyone else but have no other opportunities (once again: all under the assumption there was no way to set up a second run).

[divisortheory]

My group started when Salvage first came out, and nobody had any idea what to expect. We naturally took as many people as we could. After a month or so we started finding out that less is more, but everyone still was interested in Salvage. Can't really kick people in that scenario. Membership has slowly fallen a little due to people having various things come up in real life. If it hadn't I would have started splitting into two groups.

[Lordwafik]

I just told everyone that we have a 10 man cut off, anyone above that can form a second group. Cruel? Assholey? I don't care, because then you look at the groups that bring everyone compared to the groups that know what they're doing, and you see which teams have the completed salvage peices.

[Lindstrom]

When Salvage came out our LS decided to go at it and went a couple runs with 18 members, all to Bhaflau and essentially going to the boss since there wasn't much information at the time. Late one night like 6 or 7 of us decided what the hell, let's go to a random zone and screw around. The LS as a whole decided they didn't care or were too busy or lazy to add Salvage to their list of stuff to do, so we kept screwing around with zones late at night. For some reason people didn't like that we were doing it late and not related to LS, but we were succeeding and completing stuff, and we told people they could join us. don't know where I'm going with this

Killed LBC twice with the whole linkshell (usually 15-18 people )out of probably 6 or 7 tries, killed it 3 out of 3 tries with our small group (7-9 people. Bhaflau's different since you usually get more than enough cells, but even still I don't think I could stand going anywhere with more than 10, and even that's pushing it for us.

[Map]

Increasing the quantity decreases the quality. 18 half geared people do not function as well as 9 fully geared ones.

[divisortheory]

Increasing the quantity decreases the quality. 18 half geared people do not function as well as 9 fully geared ones.

Well, 9 fully geared people and 9 0-equipped people function pretty good though.

[aurik]

Increasing the quantity decreases the quality. 18 half geared people do not function as well as 9 fully geared ones.

Well, 9 fully geared people and 9 0-equipped people function pretty good though.

At the cost of twice the AP, sure. But we really don't need that many hi-potions tbh.

[Map]

Increasing the quantity decreases the quality. 18 half geared people do not function as well as 9 fully geared ones.

Well, 9 fully geared people and 9 0-equipped people function pretty good though.

I'm sure the 9 fully geared people appreciate the 9 0-equipped people equally lotting the rare drops, about as much as the 9 0-equipped people enjoy standing around picking their nose for 100 minutes.
http://s61.photobucket.com/albums/h4...thermaleff.png

You're paying for 18 people, and getting out of it the work of 9 people. That's just bad efficiency!(or in this case thermal efficiency)

[geno]

I don't know if anyone was actually making a case for bringing 18 people in really, only responding to bad arguments against doing so. Its perfectly fine to say bringing 18 in when you can just split into two groups is inefficient, but saying bringing 18 in will directly cause you to do worse in the zone is a terrible argument.

Also, good to keep in mind, there are numbers between 9 and 18, that, along with restrictive job choice, might not split well into two groups. Two options here: 1.Make a cutoff point like LW's linkshell, or 2.Allow extra bodies to come in and help in whatever way they can. Either works, and its just dependent on how much you like those extra people or how they are chosen lol.

[aurik]

I don't know if anyone was actually making a case for bringing 18 people in really, only responding to bad arguments against doing so. Its perfectly fine to say bringing 18 in when you can just split into two groups is inefficient, but saying bringing 18 in will directly cause you to do worse in the zone is a terrible argument.

Also, good to keep in mind, there are numbers between 9 and 18, that, along with restrictive job choice, might not split well into two groups. Two options here: 1.Make a cutoff point like LW's linkshell, or 2.Allow extra bodies to come in and help in whatever way they can. Either works, and its just dependent on how much you like those extra people or how they are chosen lol.

Mislotting and delayed lotting of cells slows down the group more than a few extra warm bodies on the 1st floor helps.

[geno]

I don't know if anyone was actually making a case for bringing 18 people in really, only responding to bad arguments against doing so. Its perfectly fine to say bringing 18 in when you can just split into two groups is inefficient, but saying bringing 18 in will directly cause you to do worse in the zone is a terrible argument.

Also, good to keep in mind, there are numbers between 9 and 18, that, along with restrictive job choice, might not split well into two groups. Two options here: 1.Make a cutoff point like LW's linkshell, or 2.Allow extra bodies to come in and help in whatever way they can. Either works, and its just dependent on how much you like those extra people or how they are chosen lol.

Mislotting and delayed lotting of cells slows down the group more than a few extra warm bodies on the 1st floor helps.

Thats not attributable to the players being there, thats attributable to bad players being there.

[aurik]

I don't know if anyone was actually making a case for bringing 18 people in really, only responding to bad arguments against doing so. Its perfectly fine to say bringing 18 in when you can just split into two groups is inefficient, but saying bringing 18 in will directly cause you to do worse in the zone is a terrible argument.

Also, good to keep in mind, there are numbers between 9 and 18, that, along with restrictive job choice, might not split well into two groups. Two options here: 1.Make a cutoff point like LW's linkshell, or 2.Allow extra bodies to come in and help in whatever way they can. Either works, and its just dependent on how much you like those extra people or how they are chosen lol.

Mislotting and delayed lotting of cells slows down the group more than a few extra warm bodies on the 1st floor helps.

Thats not attributable to the players being there, thats attributable to bad players being there.

You're saying that 18 people are going to be as efficient as 9 people in lotting/passing the treasure pool?

Bullshit.

[geno]

I don't know if anyone was actually making a case for bringing 18 people in really, only responding to bad arguments against doing so. Its perfectly fine to say bringing 18 in when you can just split into two groups is inefficient, but saying bringing 18 in will directly cause you to do worse in the zone is a terrible argument.

Also, good to keep in mind, there are numbers between 9 and 18, that, along with restrictive job choice, might not split well into two groups. Two options here: 1.Make a cutoff point like LW's linkshell, or 2.Allow extra bodies to come in and help in whatever way they can. Either works, and its just dependent on how much you like those extra people or how they are chosen lol.

Mislotting and delayed lotting of cells slows down the group more than a few extra warm bodies on the 1st floor helps.

Thats not attributable to the players being there, thats attributable to bad players being there.

You're saying that 18 people are going to be as efficient as 9 people in lotting/passing the treasure pool?

Bullshit.

I don't believe that is what I'm saying. I think I already mentioned 18 people in Salvage is a waste of points. But 12 or 13 people aren't going to pass a whole lot slower than 9. I would contend that if they are actually paying attention - which is the least I would expect of someone not even doing much of anything else - they would be able to pass just as quickly. People not passing has little to do with numbers and a lot to do with not paying attention.

[Lordwafik]

Actually what we found is people who knew they werent getting cells or anything for that matter, payed less attention, were more inclined to ninja afk, etc.

[aurik]

I don't believe that is what I'm saying. I think I already mentioned 18 people in Salvage is a waste of points. But 12 or 13 people aren't going to pass a whole lot slower than 9. I would contend that if they are actually paying attention - which is the least I would expect of someone not even doing much of anything else - they would be able to pass just as quickly. People not passing has little to do with numbers and a lot to do with not paying attention.

Good people to mislot and mispass and are too busy to pass promptly all the time. The benefit of having 3-9 extra mobile hi-potion tanks is not worth the extra time and effort sorting out cell lots. You're gaining nothing from more good people and you're only increasing the complexity of the distribution process. How is that anything except strictly worse?

[geno]

It seems there is a definite difference in opinion in the ability of the excess players in our two scenarios. I could agree in a situation where the extra bodies do nothing but slow down distribution of cells then they are only slowing down the run. But I really don't find that to be the case. I think its perfectly possible for excess people to pass as quickly as the original people.

And if you really want to find away around that, Hipotion tanks don't really need to be in party. Only needed to be invited if they are to lot on something, which is generally at a point where its not as crucial to pass the cells within seconds of them dropping.