Ridill Priority

[Tajin]

PURPLE!



Postcount+1


edit: Ding in the name of postwhores

[aurik]

By the logic of Points > Jobs, is a SMN has more points than a Shadow Mantle than a PLD, should the SMN get it? Or a D.Ring over Tanks that went to a WHM? You need to consider both his points and job priority for things such as these. Just wondering if someone has had a policy succeed.

If your smn has 12+ months worth of points built up and wants it, and your PLD is still in his trial period, then why the hell not let the SMN lot? If you let that PLD take that mantle, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment when he disappears.

At least if the SMN disappears you can say "well he did help us for 12+ months without really getting anything else for his points"

[Khalil]

By the logic of Points > Jobs, is a SMN has more points than a Shadow Mantle than a PLD, should the SMN get it? Or a D.Ring over Tanks that went to a WHM? You need to consider both his points and job priority for things such as these. Just wondering if someone has had a policy succeed.

If your smn has 12+ months worth of points built up and wants it, and your PLD is still in his trial period, then why the hell not let the SMN lot? If you let that PLD take that mantle, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment when he disappears.

At least if the SMN disappears you can say "well he did help us for 12+ months without really getting anything else for his points"

In those rare situations, I honestly don't know who I would give it to. It's just gonna be collecting dust in his MH whereas that PLD will make use of it, then again he'll be on his trial...

[MisterBob]

Oh my hero, so far away now.
Will I ever see your smile?
Love goes away, like night into day.
It's just a fading dream...
I'm the darkness, you're the stars.
Our love is brighter than the sun.
For eternity, for me can there be, only you, my chosen one...
Must I forget you?
Our solemn promise?
Will autumn take the place of spring?
What shall I do?
I'm lost without you.
Speak to me once more!
We must part now. My life goes on.
But my heart won't give you up.
Ere I walk away, let me hear you say.
I meant as much to you...
So gently, you touched my heart.
I will be forever yours.
Come what may, I won't age a day.
I'll wait for you, always...

[Sho]

Mister B wins zee thread.

[Veli]

By the logic of Points > Jobs, is a SMN has more points than a Shadow Mantle than a PLD, should the SMN get it? Or a D.Ring over Tanks that went to a WHM? You need to consider both his points and job priority for things such as these. Just wondering if someone has had a policy succeed.

If your smn has 12+ months worth of points built up and wants it, and your PLD is still in his trial period, then why the hell not let the SMN lot? If you let that PLD take that mantle, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment when he disappears.

At least if the SMN disappears you can say "well he did help us for 12+ months without really getting anything else for his points"

cosign

[hawkie]

By the logic of Points > Jobs, is a SMN has more points than a Shadow Mantle than a PLD, should the SMN get it? Or a D.Ring over Tanks that went to a WHM? You need to consider both his points and job priority for things such as these. Just wondering if someone has had a policy succeed.

If your smn has 12+ months worth of points built up and wants it, and your PLD is still in his trial period, then why the hell not let the SMN lot? If you let that PLD take that mantle, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment when he disappears.

At least if the SMN disappears you can say "well he did help us for 12+ months without really getting anything else for his points"

In those rare situations, I honestly don't know who I would give it to. It's just gonna be collecting dust in his MH whereas that PLD will make use of it, then again he'll be on his trial...

Are you interested in rewarding a job or someone's loyalty to the LS in this situation? That's the only question that really needs to be answered in this specific example.

[Bagel]

But what about when your LS goes to kill Tia/Vrtra/whatever and you wipe BECAUSE YOUR TANKS DIDN'T HAVE SHADOW MANTLE WHICH USUALLY DOESN'T KICK IN ANYWAYS.

[Falaras]

But what about when your LS goes to kill Tia/Vrtra/whatever and you wipe BECAUSE YOUR TANKS DIDN'T HAVE SHADOW MANTLE WHICH USUALLY DOESN'T KICK IN ANYWAYS.

Your smn tanks it with his shadow mantle!

[Kanodin]

WOT warning. If you want the short version, go down to the last paragraph starting with "In summary..."

i.e. attend daily events, come to the most camps, have the most playtime with the shell etc etc get the ridill

Thats a point system...

its not literally a point system, we dont keep track of things to the letter. When i think point system i think about an excel sheet or a website that points are literally counted and kept track of.

its more of a whoever the leader wants to have an item gets the item kind of system

sure that can be just as bad sometimes but i prefer this method to actual points

Against you:
1) An intuitive system does not necessarily do as you say. The criteria of "attend[ing] daily events, com[ing] to the most camps, [and] hav[ing] the most playtime with the shell" can be implemented by a point system. If you go with an intuitive system that attempts the same function that a point system can accomplish, you risk making judgmental mistakes by allowing extraneous factors to affect the LS's decisions. If the points are accurate and complete, then there are no excuses, and no reason for people to bitch and moan after the fact. In the intuitive system, anyone with an asshole can make arguments about how they were given an unfair consideration after they see someone else get the item. In a point system, the only room for complaint is by critiquing the fairness of the specific implementation and challenging the accuracy of the points. Either way, complaints against a given point system can always be made before exclusive items load into treasure; intuitive systems are plagued by drama after the decision is announced.
2) A point system can implement anything except subjective factors.
If a LS wants to use a trumpable job priority system, such as one that pii described in this thread, you could build advantages into the system (i.e., give certain jobs a number of bonus points for bidding on certain items, to give other jobs a bidding penalty). A point system can also implement similar point differentials for a myraid of other factors, such as tenure, number of jobs that can equip the item (starting with zero), and attendance rates (requires mathematical analysis).
In addition, a point system can place restrictions if players bid points. For example, one point system exists (mentioned by Merona) that says that if a player cannot equip an item, that player can only bid one point for it (good luck bidding for ridill). It makes little sense for an item to go to someone that cannot put it to good from the start, and a point system can accomplish that task.

In your favor:
1) An intuitive system requires less work. Leaders can think about it while they drift off to sleep between mini-windows. As much as this makes for shady decisions and fuzzy logic, leaders are often tempted to make easy decisions and spend more time enjoying the game. This cannot be ignored.
2) In order to give you another point in your favor, I first have to argue about something that you trivialize.

etc etc

There are very important things that you can hide in the "etc" details. I am not sure you consider them important for the purpose at hand, and I think they do give an intuitive system an advantage. If you are subsuming factors that only an intuitive system can consider, like player attitude and skill, then you have a leg-up on a point system. I cannot think of how a point system can fairly evaluate and give weight to these subjective factors. It would be rediculous to assume that an intuitive system ignores player attitude and skill, so those issues are relevant to comparing the two systems. However, if you really do not want to consider attitude and skill, then you are not entitled to this argument and should not use the intuitive system at all.
On this note, the intuitive system wins when a decent warrior loses a bid by five points against a God-awful warrior. Point systems just cannot discriminate between the two players, unless you do a survey to quantify skill (lol, good luck doing that).


In summary, I think the flak that point systems catch is from examples that oversimplify the issue of assigning items. Simplistic point systems deserve the criticisms that they get from players, but that does not necessarily impugn more complex point systems that overcome the shortfalls of their predecessors. Therefore, this debate should focus on comparing intuitive systems to fully developed, thought-out, and current point systems.

[Kanodin]

Oh my hero, so far away now.
Will I ever see your smile?
Love goes away, like night into day.
It's just a fading dream...
I'm the darkness, you're the stars.
Our love is brighter than the sun.
For eternity, for me can there be, only you, my chosen one...
Must I forget you?
Our solemn promise?
Will autumn take the place of spring?
What shall I do?
I'm lost without you.
Speak to me once more!
We must part now. My life goes on.
But my heart won't give you up.
Ere I walk away, let me hear you say.
I meant as much to you...
So gently, you touched my heart.
I will be forever yours.
Come what may, I won't age a day.
I'll wait for you, always...

Leave the past behind.
Our kingdom is adopting the spirit of the East.

[Takedown3]

WOT warning. If you want the short version, go down to the last paragraph starting with "In summary..."

i.e. attend daily events, come to the most camps, have the most playtime with the shell etc etc get the ridill

Thats a point system...

its not literally a point system, we dont keep track of things to the letter. When i think point system i think about an excel sheet or a website that points are literally counted and kept track of.

its more of a whoever the leader wants to have an item gets the item kind of system

sure that can be just as bad sometimes but i prefer this method to actual points

Against you:
1) An intuitive system does not necessarily do as you say. The criteria of "attend[ing] daily events, com[ing] to the most camps, [and] hav[ing] the most playtime with the shell" can be implemented by a point system. If you go with an intuitive system that attempts the same function that a point system can accomplish, you risk making judgmental mistakes by allowing extraneous factors to affect the LS's decisions. If the points are accurate and complete, then there are no excuses, and no reason for people to bitch and moan after the fact. In the intuitive system, anyone with an asshole can make arguments about how they were given an unfair consideration after they see someone else get the item. In a point system, the only room for complaint is by critiquing the fairness of the specific implementation and challenging the accuracy of the points. Either way, complaints against a given point system can always be made before exclusive items load into treasure; intuitive systems are plagued by drama after the decision is announced.
2) A point system can implement anything except subjective factors.
If a LS wants to use a trumpable job priority system, such as one that pii described in this thread, you could build advantages into the system (i.e., give certain jobs a number of bonus points for bidding on certain items, to give other jobs a bidding penalty). A point system can also implement similar point differentials for a myraid of other factors, such as tenure, number of jobs that can equip the item (starting with zero), and attendance rates (requires mathematical analysis).
In addition, a point system can place restrictions if players bid points. For example, one point system exists (mentioned by Merona) that says that if a player cannot equip an item, that player can only bid one point for it (good luck bidding for ridill). It makes little sense for an item to go to someone that cannot put it to good from the start, and a point system can accomplish that task.

In your favor:
1) An intuitive system requires less work. Leaders can think about it while they drift off to sleep between mini-windows. As much as this makes for shady decisions and fuzzy logic, leaders are often tempted to make easy decisions and spend more time enjoying the game. This cannot be ignored.
2) In order to give you another point in your favor, I first have to argue about something that you trivialize.

etc etc

There are very important things that you can hide in the "etc" details. I am not sure you consider them important for the purpose at hand, and I think they do give an intuitive system an advantage. If you are subsuming factors that only an intuitive system can consider, like player attitude and skill, then you have a leg-up on a point system. I cannot think of how a point system can fairly evaluate and give weight to these subjective factors. It would be rediculous to assume that an intuitive system ignores player attitude and skill, so those issues are relevant to comparing the two systems. However, if you really do not want to consider attitude and skill, then you are not entitled to this argument and should not use the intuitive system at all.
On this note, the intuitive system wins when a decent warrior loses a bid by five points against a God-awful warrior. Point systems just cannot discriminate between the two players, unless you do a survey to quantify skill (lol, good luck doing that).


In summary, I think the flak that point systems catch is from examples that oversimplify the issue of assigning items. Simplistic point systems deserve the criticisms that they get from players, but that does not necessarily impugn more complex point systems that overcome the shortfalls of their predecessors. Therefore, this debate should focus on comparing intuitive systems to fully developed, thought-out, and current point systems.

simply put: points systems fail at making sure key members get key items that WILL DEFINETLY improve their performance and thru them the shells performance in certain situations (more skillchains, more dmg). be it ridill, defending ring, bahamut staff, hauteclaire(i think this will end up being like algol), king bodies, salvage items(free lot in our LS).

when it comes to items like say... nhands or afeet its meh and point systems can perform fine.

its the exceptional/rare items that fuck those systems up and no matter how detailed and complex you make the system there will always be someone thats angry and will leave your LS since its most likely the only time they will see an item of this nature drop i.e. ridill or dring

its also my opinion based solely on my experience on my server(cerberus) the point based shells are less skilled and less capable not to mention less willing to camp fafnir or behemoth for 3 hours (altho camping ff and kb dont take skill they take multiple bots to win claims), that being said it compounds the issue even more since that one asshat sam that has everything he needs for sam and has 3435646646437 points will be quite upset if you dont allow him to lot on the ridill. and if you do let him have the ridill then all the wars that have the points and the job priority for it are now angered and will leave the shell.

1 angry sam or multiple angry wars is how i guess u should look at it in the end

[Lordwafik]

Posts like these go nowhere.

Item distribution isn't black and white, every player has their story on why they deserved it over another.

[Rocl]

The Ultimate Ridill Priority List:

1. Rocl
2. Rocl
3. Rocl
4. Shiznicle
5. Daahan
6. Rocl
7. Rocl

I don't really want a Ridill. I don't know about the other popes though!

[NynJa]

By the logic of Points > Jobs, is a SMN has more points than a Shadow Mantle than a PLD, should the SMN get it? Or a D.Ring over Tanks that went to a WHM? You need to consider both his points and job priority for things such as these. Just wondering if someone has had a policy succeed.

If your smn has 12+ months worth of points built up and wants it, and your PLD is still in his trial period, then why the hell not let the SMN lot? If you let that PLD take that mantle, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment when he disappears.

At least if the SMN disappears you can say "well he did help us for 12+ months without really getting anything else for his points"

dont do DL that run lolz

[Khalil]

By the logic of Points > Jobs, is a SMN has more points than a Shadow Mantle than a PLD, should the SMN get it? Or a D.Ring over Tanks that went to a WHM? You need to consider both his points and job priority for things such as these. Just wondering if someone has had a policy succeed.

If your smn has 12+ months worth of points built up and wants it, and your PLD is still in his trial period, then why the hell not let the SMN lot? If you let that PLD take that mantle, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment when he disappears.

At least if the SMN disappears you can say "well he did help us for 12+ months without really getting anything else for his points"

dont do DL that run lolz

I was actually about rebuttle with that but I felt it lacked something.

[Slott]

I didn't read this whole thread, skimmed some : saw this.

By the logic of Points > Jobs, is a SMN has more points than a Shadow Mantle than a PLD, should the SMN get it? Or a D.Ring over Tanks that went to a WHM? You need to consider both his points and job priority for things such as these. Just wondering if someone has had a policy succeed.

Our linkshell has a point system that works in favor of a main job system.

We use the following basis to answer this question:

Point System

Lunarians use a point system adopted from Everquest called "DKP" - Dragon Kill Points.

Under this system, every raid attended is worth points, and every item costs points. This promotes a simple but nonetheless powerful "work for what you get" atmosphere.

Everyone has one, and only one, "Main" job. This determines what items they get priority on. Members are allowed to lot for "secondary" job(s) according to lotting rules explained further in.

The following section gives additional information as to how the DKP system works in detail:

>> DKP Details

1. Event Values and Attendance

Event Values - Sanctioned Linkshell events have point values. 100% points are awarded for successful events, 200% for first time successes (first kill bonus), and 50% on failure if there was reasonable progress made and there had been no prior successes.

Event Attendance - Members get points for the event as long as they attempt to attend as soon as they're able, and there's still a "reasonable" amount of time left. (Reasonable is defined by officer entering raid)

Scouting - If members are asked to scout an HNM during an event they will get points for the events they miss.

Simultaneous Events - If there are multiple events occuring simultaneously, all attending members will get points for all events.

Point Transfers - Points are non-transferrable between members.

Secondary Accounts (A) - Bringing a secondary account (a "bot") to a raid does not count as attending if the member's main account is doing something else such as xping or farming. Members can confirm with an officer beforehand if bot attendence is okay; if acceptable they will still be counted as attending.

Secondary Accounts (B) - Another member being "botted" at a raid does not earn DKP. Bots may bid items for the account owner, as normal.

2. Item Values and Lotting Guidelines

Item Values - Every item dropped at every event (except AF-related items) has a DKP point value. Factors that are taken into consideration when determining value include: rarity, rare/ex vs. sellable, demand, and market value.

Item Lotting - When an item drops during a raid officers will announce in linkshell that they are accepting bids. Interested members should say in linkshell that they are interested (bidding). Results will be determined by an officer according to lotting rules and the winner will be told to lot.

Ties - In the event that two or more bidders are within 20 points of each other, it is considered a tie. Bidders will lot and highest lot wins the item. This applies for auctioned items on the site as well (/random).

Value Changes - Items may have their prices changed from time to time, reflecting mistakes, updated drop rates or changes in the game itself. These changes will effect rare/ex item purchases retroactively. Officers will always try and avoid changes by starting out with a high value - it's much easier and less painful to reduce a price than to raise it.

3. Lotting Priority

Lotting (bidding) priority is listed below, 1 being top priority. The idea here is that main jobs get priority over secondary jobs, which in turn get priority over people lotting for HQs.

1.) Main job + can equip + has required points
2.) Alt job + can equip + has required points
3.) Main job + can equip + does not have required points
4.) Alt job + can equip + does not have required points
5.) Main job + can equip + bidding for HQ
6.) Alt job + can equip + bidding for HQ
7.) Everyone else

4. Officer Discretion

On certain rare, elite, and highly desirable drops, officers may use their discretion - above and beyond DKP rankings - to ensure drops are handed to people that will most benefit the linkshell.

http://www.lunariansls.com

it's on our about page if you're curious about all our rules. We're a point based system, ie; we kill something, we get points.

It doesn't happen often to use officer discression, but we make sure things are fair. We also set certain items to have priorities on certain main jobs. Such as a caster is never going to get a D ring over a pld or other tank (same for shadow armor)

It's worked for over 2 years (think we're heading on 3 actually?) so we were successful in a point system with main jobs

[solsovly]

I didn't read this whole thread, skimmed some : saw this.

By the logic of Points > Jobs, is a SMN has more points than a Shadow Mantle than a PLD, should the SMN get it? Or a D.Ring over Tanks that went to a WHM? You need to consider both his points and job priority for things such as these. Just wondering if someone has had a policy succeed.

Our linkshell has a point system that works in favor of a main job system.

We use the following basis to answer this question:

[quote:b1843]

4. Officer Discretion

On certain rare, elite, and highly desirable drops, officers may use their discretion - above and beyond DKP rankings - to ensure drops are handed to people that will most benefit the linkshell.

[/quote:b1843]

True or not, it sounds more like, seriously if officer/e-gf wants ridill, we use our discretion! Otherwise seems like a pretty solid point system. I'm just saying, why bother when theres a little hidden clause saying, on rare occassions, if you've worked for it and we don't like you, we can pick someone else!

[Hawky]

pretty much have an attendance/job based way of lotting in my ls. Quite simple and it works. With the right people it works, with loot whores it won't

[deivi]

anyways.... my ls has 4 ridills in 86? fafs, very unlucky.

thats your punishment for giving them to BLMs